Brackets for hanging permanent Train layout near ceiling level.

I built mine the each same way. I bought my brackets at Home Depot.

The casement would be a cool opportunity for a tunnel.

Yea Home Depot .. I just got Two L shaped steel.... very heavy duty ones there.

If you are mounting the shelf on the front of the soffit that surrounds the room, your issue is not enough vertical space to mount the least expensive but sturdy enough brackets.  That would be these.

You need a bracket that either has the vertical leg mounted above the shelf or these.  They do come in white.  

They MAY work, but I fear there may be too much spring in them as they are simply a flat metal bar bent into an "L" with not angled brace.  Although the Home Depot site indicates a 200# load per one pair of brackets !  Of course you would mount them with the vertical leg UP.  

JGP,

 Thanks,  I will stop buy HD and check out what they have in stock!  

Dan,

Remember I want to sit the shelves inside the 90 degree angle, so the bracket must be flat inside the 8x10 L

Goshawk,

   I am going to use the Big Bar as a Tunnel on the 1st level, and also use the top of the bar as in Donavan's Reef on the top level.  Not enough space in the over head encasement unfortunately.

Thanks much everybody!

PCRR/Dave

The Brackets need to be 8"x10" or 12" metal L shaped to set the shelves on the inside of the L.  The 8" leg will be
mounted to the side wall near the ceiling on the encasement built around the Train Room, to hide the hot water piping
for our new homes base board heating.  The Shelving will then be mounted to the the L Brackets and the O Gauge FasTrack
screwed down to the shelving, with or without some kind of noise suppression acoustical engineering.

Need some suggestions for acquiring the L shaped steel Brackets from the membership. Thanks in advance for the help!

PCRR/Dave

NOTe the type of trains you will be running as those die cast steamers and some die cast diesels can easily fatigue the L brackets.

IMHO,  since you need the inside of the L to be clear of any gussetts, you might want to obtain these small angle brackets

and place them on every other stud between the larger L shaped brackets that you would mount every 3-4 studs. the More you can distribute the weight the better off you are.

http://www.ulvr.com/john/train/

If I do another one, I really want to do a floating style shelf, like the pic above. Here is the one I made for my son's room. It's a little different from your circumstances.

  I went with a 45° cross sheet metal cross brace about 3" wide and small L at the shelf/wall vs the L.

Above and along windows they are 45° hanging braces, ½x½ curved angle steel. 

One line is enough. Elevation on a second line helps you see it, and so do open concepts. 

  Use a level and mark it, don't trust floor or ceiling to measure except to check the mininum height at the corners to find the "short" one.

You need the level again to ensure an angle 90° or better, always listing to the wall side in any error. I shimed mine by 1 regular washer at least, 3 thick washers in spots.

Looking at that nice room, I want to say take the same wood up high. 

They telegraph sound into the walls a whole lot, and Ive been thinking about how well ceiling hangers do in other applications like heating and ventilation, and if the hanger threaded connectections are rubber backed and teflon bushed, the sound isolation is pretty awsome.

   Ceiling hangers would be my next choice to do it again. Wood and rod tressle stuff______/lXlXl\________/lXlXl\________/lXlXl\_____ the more wood the better. Track on stringers and wood bottom ties, sitting on well isolated threaded hangers.

Couple of thoughts...

Are you aware of ....photos, etc....of the framing structure for the soffits?  IOW, is the vertical wall of the soffit designed to have a sufficient number of brackets attached that carry a cantilevered load?  I ask this simply because I have torn into soffits in home renovations, finding that the substructure was truly minimal since the sole purpose of the soffit was cosmetic, and not load-bearing.   They were not built like studded walls, which provide you the best support for your rail line.

So, why not forget hanging a bracket from the vertical wall of the soffit, and simply fasten a straight 1x2...better yet, 1X3...on edge to the bottom (horizontal surface of the soffit.....again, assuming the internal structure is designed well enough for even this solution?  This could then extend out from the soffit for a sufficient distance to support your shelf, and would leave a 'cleaner' vertical surface.  You could then transition to the L brackets...or similar sturdy style...on the regular walls, fastened to the studs.

Second comment....You might want to consider some sort of safety line at the shelf's edge to ensure a derailed train doesn't have an easy path to someone's head or at least the floor..The first being of interest to your home insurance liability coverage....the second of 'mere' interest to your psyche and wallet.

FWIW, always.

GOSHAWK...Assume you have 10' ceiling height in your son's room?  Ditto the safety line thought.

KD

dkdkrd posted:

 

GOSHAWK...Assume you have 10' ceiling height in your son's room?  Ditto the safety line thought.

KD

Yes, 10 footers.

Dave,

This is the first board I put up on my overhead layout.  8 X 10 board.  The brackets are steel 6 inch 90 degrees, supported by smaller 3 inch brackets.  Mine is a  100 feet around the inside of the large rec room downstairs.  The brackets must be hidden by a backdrop.  Also, I highly recommend adding a small bottom trim piece like you see here.  It provides a simple rail to slide the doweled boards into each other.  In this case it was pre-existing.  My dad built this entire room 50 years ago, including the bar.  He built the rooms, floor, ceiling, boxes for the girders, and all the wiring for the sound system.  He owned his own TV repair shop, but could build anything.  He built the first two family train layouts, and we built an enormous, ten 4 X 8's layout together in the attic of my first house.  I also built a large table layout in the three rooms behind this wall.

To get it all the way around the room, some obstacles had to be overcome.  These are three boards doweled and glued together.  It contains a small yard, and had to be supported by the ends.  No drilling into the brick.  Only one small bracket in the middle.  It hasn't moved a millimeter in 4 years.

The track and roadbed had to be completed before mounting, because there is only 8 inches to the ceiling.  Also, all boards had to be stained to match the existing wood from underneath.  Boards were sealed with Minwax Polycrylic, three coats, and sanded three times.  It had to look like it was always part of the boxed girders.  I've been running this overhead layout for 4 years.  There isn't the slightest sagging or warping at all, but, I do run a dehumidifier spring, summer, and fall.

Track, and I only needed 4 switches, always tested before going up.  All the long boards are doweled into each other, but not glued.  This means it can all be taken down with no damage, if the need ever arises. 

Backdrop Junction provided the special order, two 35 foot long 7 1/2 inch high sections.  I used the non-glued vinyl, and added card stock backing with spray adhesive, for support.  It is all hung with velcro, not glued.  Again, it can be taken down without damaging the wood.

Powered with bus wiring.  They are all hidden by the track.  One PW ZW, with one MTH TIU.  I found rope lights give a much nicer lighting effect than the strip LED's.  They are hidden by the track, plug into each other, and are just plugged into a regular 110 outlet.

Miller Engineering signs over the bar.  Much cooler than another small backdrop. 

I run 4 MTH engines at once, two on each track.  Consists are about 20 cars per engine.  One ZW, one TIU, and one remote control.  The poker group loves watching the trains go by, from the bar or the table.  No one cares that you can't see all the track all the time.  It's the trains that they love.

I hope you can use some of these ideas.  It looks like you have space for a similar setup.  With an overhead, your company never has to worry about knocking anything over, and trains going over the bar is a really cool thing....

Best regards,

Jerry

Gentlemen,

   Great ideas everybody thanks much, I found the brackets I wanted at Home Depot today thanks to GJP.  Some extremely strong stuff for reasonable money, and they have them in stock.  I purchased 13 of them and plan to eventually get more as I need them as construction takes place.  

Jerry,

   Your man cave is fantastic, hope mine turns out as well!

PRRHorseShoeCurve,

Not to worry buddy, the brackets I am planning on using are way over engineered for this little job, got that covered from the get go.  The casement is over 1/2" thick wood and attached to the real wall studding, everything will actually be over engineered for the ceiling layout.  Will use actual white shelving as the construction base that the FasTrack sits on.  Have not decided if I want acoustical tile to deaden the FT sound or not.

Thanks again everybody for the great idea's and pictures!

As usual we have the best most knowledgable members here on the OGR!

PCRR/Dave

What size curves are planning? The greater the diameter, the farther from the wall. I made mine 072. Love them but they presented some challenges.  I'll share photos if you are interested. 

GJP,

  Love to see some photo's of your 072 ceiling layout, I am going to have a lot of straight FastTrack and I want to make the FT curves as big as possible, so the shelf corner areas will take some engineering thought.  I would like to use the 072's also to accommodate my TMCC JLC GG-1 and my original Williams City of San Fran Yellow & Gray Passenger Train with it's big long Passenger Cars.

Definitely Interested in seeing how you set up your corner areas of your ceiling layout for sure.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek, I agree with GJP's comment on using O72 curves.  I originally built my ceiling layout with O60 about a year ago and realized right as I put the last screw in that I'd made a mistake.  I tore it down and rebuilt with O72.  I highly, highly recommend going O72 if it's not too big of an issue.  You'll thank yourself later for doing it.  I linked a video below of my layout that was taken right after I'd finished building the shelf that explains how I did it and with what materials.  It looks like you've got tons of great advice already but here's some more if you'd like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKtws1fAuw&t=2s 

Ps. Jerry, I'm in love with your bar. 

Nice Man Cave

Dave, I have just done this with OO/HO gauge in Mason's Bedroom.

This is a new product that only officially launched last weekend. 

http://www.roomtoprailways.co.uk/

I already sent them some info on FasTrack so maybe the more people that ask the more likely they might consider doing a similar system for O gauge.

Nick

Here are photos of my overhead layout. My other layout lies below. I've used bridges at each corner, though they are strictly non-structural, since they rest on plywood. The plywood sub-roadbed rests on 8" brackets, except at the corners where I used 10". Originally, I used large triangular pieces in the corners but my wife hated them, saying that they intruded too far into the room. So, I bought a jigsaw and cut the curves. With the curves I needed to use the 10" brackets and metal joiners between sections of plywood. Note also that I painted the brackets and plywood to match. By the way, I put a foam roadbed under my tubular track to quiet it down a bit.

          very COOL GJP....  nice !!!

GJP,

   I take it you used 3/4 Ply wood to cut the corners curves out of.  Looks like it matches your shelving pretty well.  This is exactly the engineering I was considering using, and I sure like the way it made your room look.  

Thanks for the great pictures, anything else you can think of that might save me some time.

What material did you use for the neat guard rail on your one corner curve?

GJP your Train Room is fantastic, looks neat and clean, very serious layouts!

Thanks much again.

PCRR/Dave

You may wish to carefully check for each bracket to be 90 degrees.  One quick way is to place four of them together for an initial check.  Having done several of these types of installs I found not all brackets are 90 degrees.  When a bracket was found not to be 90 degrees it usually was less than a right angle Also, watch for non plumb walls.

Yes, 3/4" would be good but I used 5/8" and found it to be plenty, as long as you support it with the 10" brackets. The guard rail is actually a girder bridge, but an actual  guard rail would be cheaper, since I didn't need the bridge for strength. I've included a few closeup shots for details. I've shown the metal joiner bracket.

GJP posted:

 

                                          COOL  photo !! 

By the way, no real need to use plywood all the way around, just at the corners. I used pine shelving for the straight sections. Cheaper and the edges were much nicer looking.

GJP,

   Thanks much for the photo's, I finally got around to measuring my shelving and you are correct the 5/8 is going to be perfect material size for joining them together and less expensive than the 3/4 also.  About how far apart are the majority of your 10" Shelf Brackets, I do realize they will vary.  I was planning approx 3 brackets for every 4' straight shelving section, then custom making the curves and bracket fit up as needed.  I like to over engineer for strength on my Train layouts especially the ceiling type layouts.  The 10" Brackets with either the 10" shelf or the 8" shelf, depending on whether I want to Engineer for two tracks or one.  I really like the idea of only having one track, however I have not made the final decision at this point.  It looks like you picked the 8" shelf and ran one train, is that correct?  I really like the clean look you developed with your Engineering plan, I may just do something similar.  I see you painted your shelving green. I plan on leaving my shelving White to match the room color.  I may paint the 072,  5/8 Plywood white also or I may leave it sand colored to high light the 072 curves.  

Thanks much for the great engineering ideas also!

PCRR/Dave

I used one 8" bracket for every 3 feet of shelving. It seems really strong. I'm not saying that I could hang my full body weight on it, but it is solid. I only used one 10" bracket in each corner and placed it no more than 3 1/2 feet from the nearest 8" bracket. Does this make sense, or would you like a photo of it? The key is to try to position the 10" corner bracket as near to the center of the curve as possible. Finding the studs in the wall was the only tricky part. I do run only one train and use an 8" shelf. It doen't matter what color you use as long as the brackets are painted to match (unless, of course, you like the "industrial" look). If I had it to do over, I think I would consider a two-track layout to make it more interesting, but a wider shelf certainly would intrude further into the room, which my wife might not be pleased about. On the other hand, she was initially against my lower layout connecting through the wall with a layout in another room, until she became my "partner in crime." I really do love the overhead train, even with one track. I run a K-line stream-lined (fully lit with people) passenger train on it. By the way, I planned on adding some star (or home-run) wiring to it (it is DCS), but it doesn't seem to need anything. Just one lock-on (connecting the track with the lower layout) for a 12x14 foot layout on Lionel tubular track, and it runs great with never a problem.

dkdkrd posted:

......

Are you aware of ....photos, etc....of the framing structure for the soffits?  IOW, is the vertical wall of the soffit designed to have a sufficient number of brackets attached that carry a cantilevered load?  I ask this simply because I have torn into soffits in home renovations, finding that the substructure was truly minimal since the sole purpose of the soffit was cosmetic, and not load-bearing.   They were not built like studded walls, which provide you the best support for your rail line.

......

KD

I think this is a very good point about the strength of the soffit. KD is correct, these sometimes are barely strong enough to hold up the sheetrock that encloses them. They are many times just cosmetic.

Also, if the soffit is enclosing the piping for your baseboard heating, be very careful where you install screws. Piping is probably copper and very easily punctured by a screw. In my working life I have seen this happen more than once when the final trim work was being installed. The poor guy doing the installation had no idea what was in the walls, until the water started coming out.

My shelves predated the track. I had room for 3 lines and almost did it. But in a 12x 15 room, I could not see my second line well at all, let alone 3. The shelf itself gets in the way of the view. My solution was to grade and elevate the line closest the wall. Do it again? No! 1 line and maybe a siding for a second train to add variety without adding a ladder climb. 2 lines didn't have as big an impact on how much I liked it as I expected it to.  It was tons of work grading compared to doing on a layout. (had to hit "ground level", along one wall, I could only fit one track, so both lines share  there with anti-collision block control.... cool, but not really worth all the effort here...1 line is my suggestion unless you go the Lexan or hanging route.

(1 siding for variety & ladder...Yea, you can reach it. But railing things above your head doesn't make it any easier. I eventually pretty much dedicated trains to it I wanted to run more than I usually did. I also dedicated folding steps/ladder and some closet space for it )

  The mending brackets to tie the lip edges together is a good idea. I have a couple that are no longer in line; off about 1/4" now with age, despite end backets being less than 6" apart on the mating ends.

Most engine derails happen to the outside of curves and most of my corners are only 0-27 and filled. But I've only had dives off of the straights too; never had a car fall, only engine dives.

GJP,

   I settled on the 8" shelving and one track, I will have plenty of lower platform area to run multiple trains.  Picked up some 12' long shelving at Lowes yesterday and some matching Ply wood for the corners.   I also want to pick up a mini battery operated portable drill for screwing down my FasTrack, the old standard B&D right angle portable drill just barely fits into the space between the shelving and the ceiling.

RTR12,

Not to worry about the piping, behind the casement, it's solid black pipe and I will not be touching it with any of the 1 1/4" deck screws securing the shelf brackets to the solid wood paneling from the 60's.  The stud areas will get 2" deck screws for sure.  The great thing about the old Bar Room, now the Train/Bar Room is the older original quality construction materials that were used when it was built.  You can't even purchase the stuff today.  When I saw the older type construction I knew I was putting a ceiling shelf type layout around the Train/Bar Room for sure.  

ADRIATIC,

  Thanks for the advise on the derailments, with the 072 curves and decent speed control I hope to eliminate any derailment problems.  The Shelving is up about 9' off the floor and I wanted good visibility of the running Train, so I am using the 8" wide shelving in most places instead of the 10".  

PCRR/Dave

Gentlemen,

The only time a few cars fell the 7 feet from my 10" (really only 9 1/2 wide) overhead boards was once, during a happy hour before a poker game.  Since I run two long trains on the same track, if I forget to start one (talking instead of watching) there will be a collision.  In four years of operation, I've never had an engine come close to falling.  The wife suggested it early on but, in my view, there is no need for an outside railing.  Beside blocking your view of the trains, I like the smooth and shiny edges of the boards.  Took a lot of sanding and sealing.

I've had plenty of derailments, mostly because a leading car is too light to carry the weight of those behind it around a curve.  It won't take you long to figure those out.  My train will stop immediately with a short, so there is very little dragging and potential to pull cars off the boards, even on the outside line.  With my DCS, I've made sure to add fast-acting fuses to the two hot (red) lines.  I haven't blown a fuse in two years. 

I normally run the two outside ABA's at 20 SMPH, and the two inside A's at 22 SMPH.  I have run them at 40 without issue, but we get a better look at the cars with a slower speed.  Since the boards are only 7 feet off the floor, there is no problem seeing all the trains, all the time.  You're probably aware that with DCS or Legacy, those engines rarely match speed exactly.  If you're ever running two on the same track, keep an eye out.  It has happened to me during poker, when I don't look up every 30 minutes or so. 

You can see it is Gargraves flex track.  There are only two relatively tight curves on the whole layout.  All curves are greater than 40, but less than 70.  I'm not so dumb as to try to run a Big Boy on them, or even an engine longer than 18 inches.  These Superliners are huge and heavy.  No problems around the curves.  Also, those 10 Amtrak passenger cars have a lot of lamps that draw a lot of power from the track.  Gunrunner John has a module that will allow you to remove the lamps and substitute LED's.  Much less current draw and more light that is adjustable.  Henning's trains has them.

Partial shot of the Conrail beer and booze train.  Ten beer cars, plus a Jim Beam and Tanqueray car.  22 cars in this consist.  We'd really like Bass and Newcastle cars, and especially Jack Daniel's car.  Not much hope for those.  Even Miller Engineering says Jack has no interest in signs or trains.  Not sure why.

These are seven of the LOTS Santa Fe cars.  Another in the really nice series is on it's way.  LOTS is planning a Samuel Adams beer car for next year.  I talked to a lady from the Founders brewery about a car or Miller Engineering sign, but she didn't seem very interested.

So Dave, it looks like you've settled on what you want to do.  I thought I'd add stuff about running the trains.  It might help...

Good luck, and send us posts of your progress when you can.

Jerry

Jerry:

First of all, I love the Yankees paraphernalia on the wall. Your room is fabulous. I've tried running two trains on the same loop but gave up after several near disasters. They just took too much careful monitoring, since DCS, as you point out, does not allow for perfect matching of speeds without a lot of fiddling. Now that I have a layout below, I can't afford to have any derailments, much less falls from up above. Since I went with a single train, I have not had a single problem, but I do miss the two trains overhead, just for interest value.

George

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

 

RTR12,

Not to worry about the piping, behind the casement, it's solid black pipe and I will not be touching it with any of the 1 1/4" deck screws securing the shelf brackets to the solid wood paneling from the 60's.  The stud areas will get 2" deck screws for sure.  The great thing about the old Bar Room, now the Train/Bar Room is the older original quality construction materials that were used when it was built.  You can't even purchase the stuff today.  When I saw the older type construction I knew I was putting a ceiling shelf type layout around the Train/Bar Room for sure.  

 

The steel pipe should be a bit more difficult to penetrate with a deck screw. The 1-1/4" length will probably be a plus as well. Good luck and be careful anyway (just in case)! 

Steel pipe is not often used around here for baseboard heating, mostly all copper. I think they might even be going to some type of plastic (PEX possibly?) these days? I am not current on the latest materials they use these days (retired old timer). Of course baseboard heat around here is pretty rare these days anyway. It is all forced air so you can have A/C and heat in the same system, or in other words, get it all installed a LOT cheaper.

George,

Thanks for those nice comments.  There is only one baseball team and that has been so since 1923.  The sawks have a few numbers bolted onto their rightfield roof.  Half of those players played more games for other teams.  The Yankees have Monument Park.  They are working on #'s 28, 29, and 30 in the next few years.  I love trains, but baseball is number one. 

Here are some pics of the table layout, the fifth of six family layouts, in three different houses.  The overhead is #6.  Most of the pics show various stages of construction.  Like a real city, when you run out of space, the only thing to do is to build up.

This layout is in three rooms on the other side of the basement.  Since there are those wood boxed solid steel beams that form much of the overhead layout, there is no way to connect the two layouts.  Therefore, I don't have to worry about anything falling onto this one.

I understand your point, but I had always figured on double-tracking the overhead, with 100 feet of track on each main line, running four MTH trains.  Despite the now rare problem, everyone loves seeing four engines and 80 cars going around the main room.  Like I said before, there was only one time that anything fell, and that was a foolish mistake by the operator.

If you haven't yet, check out Menards.  They are producing GREAT buildings and cars, at GREAT prices.  Three of them are in the bottom photo.

I run 8 separate trains on this layout, but only the uppermost line has two trains on the same track.  They are LCP's with 16 car consists.  The new LCP universal remote controls the speeds of the two engines pretty closely.  The third up-level is another LCP and runs the length on its own track.  Two MTH's run between two rooms on their dedicated lower tracks, while two conventionals run in the Santa Fe room.  You can guess which room that is, haha.  The 8th is a bump and go trolley line shown where the 072 track is used in the bottom pic.  BTW, that's an Aaron Judge vertical mural that hides descending wires.

As you can see, I figure the more trains you can run, the better.  The OGR forum is a great thing for us train guys.

Hope you had at least half the fun reading this as I had writing it.... 

Best Regards,

Jerry

Gentlemen,

   I will probably have our 1960's Pirate and Yankees World series Pictures and framed Base Ball Cards, along with the original Steelers Super Bowl framed art work in the Train Room/Bar.  You guys are giving me some seriously good idea's.

Jerry, 

You are correct there was only one Base Ball Team and my buddy Dick Groat from Swissvale, Pa was the Captain of that Ball Club, and his double play partner Billy Maz hit the greatest home run in the history of Pro ball, the 1960's Pittsburgh Pirates!  The worst day in Pittsburgh history was when Westinghouse sold the Pirate franchise and the new owners turned the team into a farm team for the rest of Pro base ball.  

They call Pittsburgh the city of Champions for a reason, I sure wish we had our great Baseball Team back, with our great NFL and NHL teams, unfortunately it will never happen now.

PCRR/Dave

Dick Groat and Billy Maz, proud to say they are friends of mine.

The original 1960 World Series Base Ball Cards

JerryG posted:

Jerry

Just curious Jerry, what is the grade of the track in the background?  Looks pretty steep, just wondering if you have any operating issues.  It could also be an optical illusion I guess.

I'm curious too. I figured that escalator was just for going down.

  It looks like 5%+ some. I have a few that won't climb my 5% alone, let alone with a load.

  My other, opposing grade is 4.5% and everything can at least get up it with 1 car...."Next stop 1st floor. Going up".  My limit is about 10-12 coal hoppers, average is 7-8. I was ok with a climbing challenge, I like them; but over did it by about 1%.

Gunrunner and Adriatic,

You're both correct.  It's way over 5%.  This shows the end of that spur.  That big shelf held a bunch of stuff for years.  When I needed a place to park some trains, the bottom of the shelf was converted to what you see in front of the Red Owl store.  A few years later, I added the upper main lines, cleared away the top shelf and added more spur track, plus the structures, lights, and backdrops.  There is a very large refrigerator to the left of the shelf.  The top of it can be seen in the second pic, behind the Watkins city block and the York hotel.

When I built that steep spur, I ran the only thing I had-conventional Lionel engines with magnetraction.   Those engines climbed the tubular, but not so easily on that Gargraves you asked about.  Since that line cannot be extended, I only use it to park a few of the older cars.  Now that I think about it, I haven't run a train up there in 5 years, and no longer have a need to.

This shows the two main upper level lines.  The ramp to the up level is about 2%, as are most of the other inclines.  It's hard to tell in this shot, but when that CP train ramp gets to that tower (middle left), the upper lines are at the same level.  That line has Ross switches that provide reversing loops in the first and third rooms.

Dave,

That is some really cool stuff you have there!  I would definitely display those great items around your bar area.  These are four of that Pirate team's Strat-o-matic cards that I bought nearly 50 years ago.  I include Law, and the Great One, to go along with Maz and MVP Groat.  Clemente remains the only Strat player to ever get a -6 throwing arm rating.  Strat is played by most GM's in MLB, and it's popularity is the origin of modern day sabermetrics.  Of course, it's become a lot more sophisticated than these early basic game cards.

It must be extraordinarily cool to be pals with those guys and to hear their stories first hand.  You may know that, since the Yankees outscored them something like 54 -26, none other than Mickey Mantle said it was the only time he felt the best team lost.   Also, because Casey didn't start Whitey in game 1, his two shutouts didn't mean much for game 7, and that major screw-up probably cost Casey his job.  Sorry, couldn't resist.  I was 7 years old at the time, but that series still kills Yankee fans.

BTW, I rebuilt the basement bathroom.  You can imagine the use it gets during a poker game.  In the bottom pics, Maris, Berra, Mantle, and Richardson all played in that series.  Richardson is the only player in history to be series MVP from the losing series team.

Baseball and trains, Dave.  The best you can get.

Jerry