Brass losing value

Bob2 asked what defines quality brass.

For me it is Koh and Key in the USA and Masterpiece and Lee Marsh in the UK.

Lemaco and Fulgurex in Switzerland.

I am now severely limiting what I buy as I appreciate my kids may well be left with unsaleable stuff, that despite how beautifully it replicates the prototype with exquisite detail, solder and paint - if there is no demand from the next generation there will be no market for it.

Personal circumstance also forces financial discipline on me.  Consequently my builders plate collection has also shrunk to now only late built steam , no one in the next generation is going to want this stuff, accept it and move on. 

To prevent spontaneous purchases I maintain a very small wants list and if it doesn't appear on the list I don't purchase it, I now subscribe to the mentality, 'less is more'.  I have sold most of the OMI/PRB brass rolling stock that is superfluous in my collection and will soon start with some of the OMI locomotives.  ( took a hit on some, broke even on other stuff ) OMI quality even on the last runs still leaves a lot to be desired. The latches are still only etched (???) The Red Caboose plastic GP9 got it right.

as ever, opinion.

nick

I get tired of model train hobbiest say that my kids will be left with unsellable stuff. Kids are not entitled to every dollar that we have earned. They need to work to make their own fortune. Whether it is golf, or any other hobby one does not need to have a return for every dollar output. Buy what you want and enjoy. If you make a profit great, if you don't the money spent was for the good times that you had. To me it is like going to a movie, you spent money to have a good time that you need to keep sane. Money well spent. If I sell a locomotive brass or plastic and lose $100 that I have enjoyed for 5 years. That only cost $20 a year or about $1.67 a month for our enjoyment. Cheap compared to some people paying over $100 a month for cable. No hobby is really cheap, but we must decide is it worth it for the enjoyment and social friends that it gets each and every one of us. I always thought smoking and drinking has nothing to show for in the end. A least with trains I still have something to show for.

Stephen

AS I have said more than once  "My trains are my therapy". Cheaper that a shrink, booze or cars.  I know,  after my wife died I bought some older cars and spent days working on them but it got me over some really bad times. Forget the $$, enjoy your trains.

Good to get some good-natured soul-stirring discussion.   Living proof that O scale (brass) isn't dying and that we care as much about our trains now as ever.  

Quality is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but quality (or rarity) alone does not determine what an item will fetch when selling it. 

It's not that Overland diesels (or steamers) are bad values.  In some (many?) cases it is that the market has really improved or that the product's price was inflated and has finally settled down to the market value. 

The state of the art for both the top and the bottom rungs of brass has really improved. 

Who can argue that current 3rd rail stuff is just wonderful.  Not Key or Kohs quality in detail but dimensionally accurate, faithful in basic detail, loaded with DCC/Sound and they run flawlessly.     Out of the box perfect.

Same for the top end.  Overland E's  and F and PAs all took a nosedive in price when Key started building state of the art models and 3rd rail started importing  RTR units who might have not had the detail level of Overland but they had 90 per cent of it, had road-specific details,  and were flawlessly finished.  

Every manufacturer/importer has lemons.   The Overland poultry car is highly revered and highly priced but let the nit picker and cynic have a closer look and Overland's rendition of the very fine screening as etched metal grills doesn't quite cut the mustard.  

Ditto for the flat Pullman end of the revered Pacific Limited 1932 ARA box cars.   Even the Max Gray cars from the 1960's  have a better rendition of the stamped "crimp" seams of steam era boxcar ends.

Good indicators of the brass "market" - Yoder USRA cement gons fetch anywhere from $300 unpainted up to $700 painted.  They were $425/435 new. A 1960's era built up Max Grey "perfection models" SOO Line sawtooth single sheathed boxcar fetches $450 when you can find them.   The Pacific limited NYC USRA cars were $250 when new.  Now they fetch $350 to $400.

Yes,  there are a "glut" of nice brass that is reasonably priced and easily obtainable.   Overland SD's or Dash 8's for under a grand? Yep!

Quality cars cheap? My $225 Glacier Park GS gondola and $175 Rich Yoder notch end C&O hopper are examples of that. 

Ne'er a better time to be in brass... as both a buyer and a seller. 

Interesting thread.  Here are some of my perspective. 

• trains aren't for investing, but to enjoy, share, build, modify, and especially run
•  If on my passing they can be sold for some residual value that's nice -   that would be better for my wife and kids than what's left after most most of our non-necessity expenditures.
• I don't give a hoot about scarcity or the material the model is made of.  One of my favorite locomotives is a sweet running AtlasO SW7.
• I  look for locomotives that will fill a specific operational role on the railroad.  If it isn't needed to support the operating scheme or blend prototypically with the era and region of the railroad I'm modelling  I won't buy it.  ( bless me Father for I have sinned - I'm trying to be good!)
• The model must meet a personal standard for prototype fidelity and smooth performance - with performance the most importance of the two.  As I learn more about the prototype and better models become available the fidelity standard rose.  Thus the oversized USH K4s and M1a had to go (yes I know I've made a big compromise with not going P48 - just too late in life to do that). 
• Some models have so much small hidden detail (especially opening doors, windows, and hatches) that even with extremely careful handling cleaning wheels and lubricating the mechanism is a dicey proposition.  IMO these models  are best suited for display cases - not a running railroad.  My Kohs K4s is a case in point.  It has 2 motors in the boiler -  one for the drive and a second one to move the functioning power reverse mechanism.  I'd gladly trade the working power reverse for a larger motor and  added weight on the drivers for tractive effort closer to the prototype.  With a multitude of cleaver connections between the boiler and chassis it will require the talent of a neuro surgeon to dissemble it to install DCC.  As a result it sits on a shelf over my office desk.  If I had to sell one of my K4s it would be the first to go.

Keystoned Ed posted:

Interesting thread.  Here are some of my perspective. 

• trains aren't for investing, but to enjoy, share, build, modify, and especially run
•  If on my passing they can be sold for some residual value that's nice -   That would be better for ou kids than what's left after most most of our non-necessity expenditures.
• I don't give a hoot about scarcity or the material the model is made of.  One of my favorite locomotives is a sweet running AtlasO SW7.
• I  look for locomotives that will fill a specific operational role on the railroad.  If it isn't needed to support the operating scheme or blend prototypically with the era and region of the railroad I'm modelling  I won't buy it.  ( bless me father for I have sinned - but I'm trying to be good!)
• The model must meet a personal standard for prototype fidelity and smooth performance - with performance the most importance of the two.  Some models have so much small hidden detail (especially opening doors, windows, and hatches) that even with extremely careful handling cleaning wheels and lubricating the mechanism is a dicey proposition.
• Some models  are best suited for a display case - not a running railroad.

           My beautiful Kohs K4s is a case in point.  It has 2 motors in the boiler -  one for the drive and a second one to move the functioning power reverse mechanism.  I'd gladly trade the working power reverse for a larger motor and  added weight on the drivers for tractive effort closer to the prototype.  With a multitude of tricky connections between the boiler and chassis it will require the talent of a neuro surgeon to dissemble it to install DCC.  As a result it sits on a shelf over my office desk.  If I had to sell one of my K4s it would probably be the first to go.

 

One of my lottery based dreams is a Kohs GG1 in P:48... or a freight G and a passenger G in P:48 as an honor to Bob Hegge, whose Crooked Mountain Lines  gave me the desire to model in P:48. 

I'd be more interested in donating my brass to a railroad museum that has an operating O scale railroad so that children of all ages can enjoy them. 

Investment is the last of my concerns with my trains.   Their sole purpose is their play value.   But it is fun hunting down and collecting what is necessary to model my little slice of the Standard Railroad of the World.

dkdkrd posted:

Norton posted:

Most all of my HO brass purchased new 40 years ago have yet to come up the price I paid for them.

HO brass prices of 40 years ago, adjusted for 40 years of inflation, are not a pleasant reminder of your 'investment'....considering their current secondary market sales prices.

According to the C.O.L. calculator, a $100 price in 1976 would rise to $425 in 2016. 

I believe an HO PFM Santa Fe 2-8-0 (ubiquitous, I know) was my first brass acquisition about 50 years ago.  Even though it has basically languished in its box since then and could probably come close to the equally ubiquitous 'mint' rating, the thought of getting 4.25 times the original price is laughable....if not totally depressing.  Ain't gonna happen, not ever, zip, nada!

I'm with Bob2's pithy comment...

"Hobbies and investments are rarely compatible.  Hobbies are for fun."

...and that's the way it was for me 50 years ago....and still is.  

There's enough else in this world to be depressed about....but not my hobby purchases!

Also just an opinion.

KD

In agreement, I just looked up what that 1965? tenshodo SD 24 with all the lighting and  paint, $30, then would cost $239 today.  No way close as seen them for near cheap as day it was born. Well maybe not that cheap but not like the cost of engines today. . Gawd, Do I remember running that engine and the beautiful smell of the motor as it ran around my layout in the basement crawl space.  Mom at least granted me space to play with my only brass engine. It was so beautiful in the case at Franciscan Hobbies in San Francisco and I had to have it. It took a year but enough saving and gifting to me I was able to own it.  

phill posted:

  Mom at least granted me space to play with my only brass engine. It was so beautiful in the case at Franciscan Hobbies in San Francisco and I had to have it. It took a year but enough saving and gifting to me I was able to own it.  

....which is the sentimental  value that can be priceless! 

Of course, no one else will ever compensate you for that, but so what?

I have 'stuff'...including brass trains...for which sentiment trumps all other metrics. 

Priceless.

KD

On the museum donation: me too, except the museum will just turn around and sell it for cheap.  If you want to support a museum, send it money, and earmark it for whatever your favorite thing is.

Our museum got an extensive collection of O Scale brass, and as far as I can tell, has stored it out of sight of the public for three decades.

bob2 posted:

On the museum donation: me too, except the museum will just turn around and sell it for cheap.  If you want to support a museum, send it money, and earmark it for whatever your favorite thing is.

Our museum got an extensive collection of O Scale brass, and as far as I can tell, has stored it out of sight of the public for three decades.

I wouldn't consider donating mine to any museum that didn't have an operating O scale layout... because as you say they would just hand it over to an auction company to sell for a reduced profit.  

Perhaps we need to start a national O scale museum of trains. 

I have brass, diecast and plastic.  From Key to Williams, mostly inbetween.  They have all taken a hit.  I do not care.  My rooster is based on South Western RRs and specific items my dad loved.  Memories transcend money IMO.

I am a 3 railer intruding here.....but it also depends on which side of the curve you are on......My 3rd Rail PRR S1 cost me about $500 delivered....so 'value' of brass is good or bad depending on POV.  I bought it because I LIKE it...no other reason.

VGN64 posted:

Brass as an investment...........go to Vegas, catch some shows, play some slots, cards, dice it's entertainment just like my trains.  Buying brass is like buying a new car, soon as it leaves the lot the value starts going down.  There are exceptions and from what I see the exceptions are in rolling stock not in locomotive power.  Locomotives may go up some if all the units are sold out when they are originally delivered such as some of Key Imports E units. 

The items I see appreciating in price are unusual rolling stock.  The perfect example is Rich Yoder's boxcar with the art deco ends.  They are constantly going for higher than list on ebay.  Cabooses that are factory painted with limited runs go for higher than retail.   I'm noticing some brass structures going for higher than retail.

The funny thing is when someone sells a piece or brass or kit on ebay for higher than retail all of a sudden you see several more models for sale......the early bird gets the worm and most of the other sales go for lower prices but some still go for higher than retail.

Buying high end brass is the chance you take.  I have ordered a Midwestern Model Works N&W SD-45 win the bicentennial paint  scheme.  I have always wanted this diesel and committed before I heard about the MTH model.  I have the Overland N&W 1776 caboose and found the decals.  If you see this caboose it's going for a much higher price on ebay.........still unpainted.  I know I may never get my money out of this model but it's in the top 5 of my bucket list.  Another is the VGN Berkshire which if Kohs does come thru, IT"S MINE!!!!  I already have the rolling stock and caboose to go behind it.

 

 

I still think the comments refer to scarcity of the piece and not the quality. I don't remember seeing from OM anything saying we are building this model to higher standards  as with Atlas model and the Trainman vs masters line.  So i vote for Scarcity vs quality.  And those chicken cars. well who made them other than the brass people and how many.  Now like an F unit that was so over produced in so many scales. 

Limey posted:

Bob2 asked what defines quality brass.

For me it is Koh and Key in the USA and Masterpiece and Lee Marsh in the UK.

Lemaco and Fulgurex in Switzerland.

I am now severely limiting what I buy as I appreciate my kids may well be left with unsaleable stuff, that despite how beautifully it replicates the prototype with exquisite detail, solder and paint - if there is no demand from the next generation there will be no market for it.

Personal circumstance also forces financial discipline on me.  Consequently my builders plate collection has also shrunk to now only late built steam , no one in the next generation is going to want this stuff, accept it and move on. 

To prevent spontaneous purchases I maintain a very small wants list and if it doesn't appear on the list I don't purchase it, I now subscribe to the mentality, 'less is more'.  I have sold most of the OMI/PRB brass rolling stock that is superfluous in my collection and will soon start with some of the OMI locomotives.  ( took a hit on some, broke even on other stuff ) OMI quality even on the last runs still leaves a lot to be desired. The latches are still only etched (???) The Red Caboose plastic GP9 got it right.

as ever, opinion.

nick

 

 

 

Heard once and remembered it. "You don't own it, It owns you" 

All this has me concluding that model trains are a better investment, even if they lose value,  than my Chevy, my boat, and so much more that I have purchased over the years. High five to trains 

phill posted:

All this has me concluding that model trains are a better investment, even if they lose value,  than my Chevy, my boat, and so much more that I have purchased over the years. High five to trains 

Generally speaking, firearms are a much safer investment, but even then the values can go up and down with certain gun laws being passed or repealed.

phill posted:  

Heard once and remembered it. "You don't own it, It owns you" 

Too true. I had a massive collection of US military stuff ranging from WW1 to 'Nam before I went back to college in my late 20s. I decided that it was better to have 1 really good item than 10 so-so ones. So, I sold off a massive portion of my collection. It's much smaller now, but I[m happier with it because I kept the really good stuff and got rid of all the excess stuff. I've even gone so far as to instruct my wife what to do if I kick off early so she doesn't get hosed selling it all off. I know guys with collections that fill their houses, one has a basement filled to chest level with paths cleared to walked through the large OD green stacks. He doesn't even recall what all's in there and wouldn't know where to find any specific item if he needed to. I don't see how I could live like that these days.

That OMI 0 SD 40-2 sold for $748. 

phill posted:

That OMI 0 SD 40-2 sold for $748. 

I'm not a modern era modeler... but IIRC the OMI C-40-8W went for under a grand painted when they were new in the 90's, is that not correct?

Overland stuff was state of the art detail wise when they came out.  Unfortunately their operating characteristics leave something to be desired.

The economy has peaks and valleys and right now it is running nearly flat. 

AND it does seem like many collections are hitting the streets lately... a few of us selling or dying off?

Still seems like a normal business cycle for O scale brass.

I've read every post in this thread and would like to make a couple points not yet mentioned.

Phill's UP SD-40-2 is probably from the 1990 run.  I think there were 50 pieces done.  They had a list price of a little over $900 and they were unpainted.  Phill's was painted and I figure that was worth about $250 so, $750 for the model itself?  Compares to today's price but, clearly, no appreciation.

Phill's model is Union Pacific.  I'm a brass dealer and I can tell you that the price of ALL Union Pacific brass took a big hit with UP's ill-considered licensing approach from a decade ago.  Modelers (brass buyers at least) were honked off and the popularity of UP brass dropped to zero.  I don't know if they feel they are getting back at UP, but it has not returned to former levels.  Phil bought before the crash.  I've done the same.

Folks have compared the 'value' of twenty year old brass with contemporary plastic.  Try comparing with 20-year old plastic and brass is the winner.

Jus' sayin'

I would like to add too that in my collection are locomotives that I have no intention of running such as the PFM Kodama K27 and the PSC Mitch-Cal shay, I own them purely for the satisfaction of owning them and I have no interest in what they are worth when I expire.  I aim to have a 'few nice pieces' as opposed to cabinet full of mediocre run of the mill stuff. Looking forward to my Kohs BB. 

I agree with most of the earlier comments.

n.

really who cares about the value when i'm gone. i bought it because i liked/wanted it and  had the money for it.  why does everything that you want has to have a increase in value, the steak dinner and the beer i had last night will give me no return on my investment other than the pleasure of a good dinner. my 70's leisure suit was given away but i was in style when i wore it. i made the decision that when i die i am willing all my cars,trains(tons) and guns go to my son. upon my demise he will write me a check for 100 million dollars(way more than my investment) and will place that in my coffin. i now know i made tremendous investments and will be leaving with a smile on my face.

DaveJfr0 posted:

Todd Roberts posted:

Folks have compared the 'value' of twenty year old brass with contemporary plastic.  Try comparing with 20-year old plastic and brass is the winner.

Jus' sayin'

Don't want or have to. I have zero (or nearly zero) 20yo plastic.  Since modern plastic is so good, I also have very few brass pieces unless they were something I could only ever get in brass because of its prototype uniqueness (and correctness). I don't care about the material, as long as it faithfully represents what it is supposed to be.

I'm with you Dave.

I have always considered my trains an "Investment" just not a Financial one, but like others have posted, a "Mental Investment" . Even when I don't have a chance to run them, some times just taking a few minutes(or less) to admire the detail of some my locomotives, can be a relaxing distraction from some of every day life's stresses.

 A little off topic, being this is about 2 rail Brass, there are some 3 rail Die-cast and plastic that always AMAZE me, in how their prices CONSISTENTLY come in WAY over original MSRP.

 The Lionel 6-18730 Plastic Transylvania 4-4-0 General had an MSRP of $104.99. I have seen those sell for as high as $256. In the last two weeks, ebay has shown 2 sold(Not just a ridiculous BIN price) for $225, BIN and $197.50 auction. I wanted one, but not at the prices they were selling for, fortunately after waiting about 2 years, another forum member listed one on the for sale/trade board for $75, I jumped on that immediately. Thank You Fred.

 Another is the die-cast Lionel 6-28695 Transylvania 0-6-0 Docksider, it had an original MSRP of $109.99. Ebay shows 4 SOLD listings since June 3, 2016, a BIN sale of $295, and 3 auctions ending at $115, $158, and $231, that had 28 bids, by 5 separate bidders. I had finally gotten mine, after a long wait for $150, and finally decided that I wasn't likely to see it get much, if any cheaper than that, and I finally got it.

Some times it is very hard to understand, the prices of some items, my two examples BAFFLE me, but having watched them for a long period, it isn't just a timing fluke, and they still tend to hold their prices fairly consistently year round with a predictably bit higher selling prices closer to Halloween, but still higher on average year round, than I ever would have expected.

Doug

Interesting, one of my prize locos is a brass Westside Santa Fe Mikado factory painted. I just love the ATSF 2-8-2s. I paid $650.00 for the loco two years ago. I see them on rare occasions for $750 to $850. But now there is an excellent example on the bay for a buy now price over $2 grand and a minimum bid price of $1700 plus.

I think scarcity is a factor. One I keep wanting to steal and I will, is a 3rd rail ATSF mountain.

With rare exception I cannot see any trains rising in value. That is why I still run all of the affordable USA made conventional stuff. As with any spending you have to weigh value vs cost. The most expensive engines that I own are the two 5340 scale Hudson's on the layout and that was the rare exception to my rule. The rest of the items in my collection were purchased for $5 to $200 each and the layout looks great.  I find it humorous seeing those wasting thousands of dollars on toy trains that will be worthless in a few years. The only one who makes out on that deal is the importer. I've got the money to afford the expensive stuff but in my book its a waste of money. Keeping it cheap and simple will insure that your widow will have a better life.

I told my kids when they were young......collect what you like as you may get to eat it......

all my brass and/or collectible trains I bought because I like them....never because they were brass or rare.

Interestingly after all of our discussions I would certainly say that "our brass" may not have been a MSFT or AAPL but having our "worst" investment be a few hundred bucks off of what we paid for it ain't bad.

Everybody knows the old adage "to make a million in model trains, start with two million". 

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

RICKC posted:

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

Don't let this happen to you.  Years ago my late friend dealt in selling new brass, buying collections and reselling them.  One of his customers died suddenly so the customer's widow called my friend and wanted to sell his collection back to my friend.  My friend knew what the departed customer had as he had sold him most of it.  When he told the widow what he was willing to pay for the collection the widow exploded.  She said, You mean that S*& of a B*&^% spent that much on trains while we went without vacations???  He said he was afraid to tell her what he paid for it new as she was so mad she probably would have dug him up........  This isn't a joke and is a true story.

Please don't leave your family with a mess when the time comes, plan ahead.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

With rare exception I cannot see any trains rising in value. That is why I still run all of the affordable USA made conventional stuff. As with any spending you have to weigh value vs cost. The most expensive engines that I own are the two 5340 scale Hudson's on the layout and that was the rare exception to my rule. The rest of the items in my collection were purchased for $5 to $200 each and the layout looks great.  I find it humorous seeing those wasting thousands of dollars on toy trains that will be worthless in a few years. The only one who makes out on that deal is the importer. I've got the money to afford the expensive stuff but in my book its a waste of money. Keeping it cheap and simple will insure that your widow will have a better life.

Dennis, for ME, with rare exception, most locomotives that cost LESS than $200 would be a waste. If you like conventional with Lionel Lines on the tender, that is GREAT for YOU, and I wont criticize how you enjoy the hobby, even though it is different from how I enjoy the hobby, it is supposed to be FUN, however you choose to enjoy it.

  But for ME, for the most part, I prefer the more realistic, and detailed items, and prefer the operational advantages of command control. With that being said, I do enjoy my seasonal Halloween layout built on a hollow core door, and look forward to the trains on the floor at Christmas.

  So even though my preferences are towards Scale size and detail, with command control, I still have many Traditional size, conventional control trains in my collection, and I enjoy all of them, Scale or Traditional, Command or Conventional, they all make me SMILE

RICKC posted:

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

Rick, I don't think that plastic is going up in value overall, but in the higher end products, the detail available is definitely going up.

Doug

AMCDave posted:

RICKC posted:

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

Ain't that the truth.    In 2004 I watched a Nylint Ford Tractor and mobile home trailer sell NIB for $4400 (yes, four thousand four hundred dollars). 

My dad bought me one as kid and I guesstimate it cost under twenty five bucks. 

VGN64 posted:

Don't let this happen to you.  Years ago my late friend dealt in selling new brass, buying collections and reselling them.  One of his customers died suddenly so the customer's widow called my friend and wanted to sell his collection back to my friend.  My friend knew what the departed customer had as he had sold him most of it.  When he told the widow what he was willing to pay for the collection the widow exploded.  She said, You mean that S*& of a B*&^% spent that much on trains while we went without vacations???  He said he was afraid to tell her what he paid for it new as she was so mad she probably would have dug him up........  This isn't a joke and is a true story.

Please don't leave your family with a mess when the time comes, plan ahead.

I definitely agree, I enjoy my trains, but there are many other responsibilities that come before trains. I got Married in 2009, my last $1,000 locomotive was purchased in 2008, coincidence???  NOPE.

 We just bought our new home in May, my 19 year old Step-Daughter moved with us, she needed new tires before she found a new job, and living on the mountain now, decent tires are even more important than before. I already have a collection that could open a small train shop, so $400 went to her tires not something else in the train collection.

 We haven't missed any meals or vacations because of train purchases, it is all about PRIORITIES, and hopefully, people will assign trains their proper place on that list,

Doug

Plastic model car kits going for $400?  Is this 1/25th scale models?  When just out of school and job hunting, I drove around the state, early 1960's, going in old drug stores and small town dime stores picking up kits for 1/25th auto models.  Some were discounted on the racks.  Several big boxes languished in parent's basement as I worked entry jobs.  Eventually, I decided the money was better spent on real cars than models. found a professor in Pa. in the back of a hobby magazine who collected 1/25th and sold  all out,  except for those of a few favorite prototypes,  at a small profit.  Well, it is a crap shoot.  They could have been beanie babies.  I am now confused about the value of brass.  I have little, just all the few O scale side door, etc. cabooses I know about but one, and even fewer HO brass side door cabooses.  But I wonder if I should be looking for more of those  brass HO side door, combine, and drover's cabooses, if their prices are now affordable?  In other postings, I have seen comments that the O scale brass McKeen cars are pricey!  There have been a number of other motor cars and gas electrics done in O scale.....are these now dirt cheap?  I haven't thought so when I looked but maybe I should look again?

Yep....those drug and dime store kits........

One auction the other day went to $767 but did not reach reserve bid!!!

Supply and demand!!!

Ron H posted:

Interesting, one of my prize locos is a brass Westside Santa Fe Mikado factory painted. I just love the ATSF 2-8-2s. I paid $650.00 for the loco two years ago. I see them on rare occasions for $750 to $850. But now there is an excellent example on the bay for a buy now price over $2 grand and a minimum bid price of $1700 plus.

I think scarcity is a factor. One I keep wanting to steal and I will, is a 3rd rail ATSF mountain.

You piqued my curiosity.  I'm now following this chap's auction to see whether he has success.  BTW, he's currently running his auction for this engine for the fourth time.  His BIN price has dropped $400 since his first round.  It will be interesting to see if someone bites....or if he goes much lower.  

As others have mentioned, it's not what's asked, but what's received that determines the current value/price of an item in the marketplace.  Ergo, searching 'Completed' auctions in da bay for items that have sold (green numbers) is more meaningful than looking at what's being offered....at any price.

It may be that your less-than-a-$grand$ observations may be more realistic.  

It will be interesting to see what happens....

KD

Rule292 posted:

Good to get some good-natured soul-stirring discussion.   Living proof that O scale (brass) isn't dying and that we care as much about our trains now as ever.  

Quality is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but quality (or rarity) alone does not determine what an item will fetch when selling it. 

It's not that Overland diesels (or steamers) are bad values.  In some (many?) cases it is that the market has really improved or that the product's price was inflated and has finally settled down to the market value. 

The state of the art for both the top and the bottom rungs of brass has really improved. 

Who can argue that current 3rd rail stuff is just wonderful.  Not Key or Kohs quality in detail but dimensionally accurate, faithful in basic detail, loaded with DCC/Sound and they run flawlessly.     Out of the box perfect.

Same for the top end.  Overland E's  and F and PAs all took a nosedive in price when Key started building state of the art models and 3rd rail started importing  RTR units who might have not had the detail level of Overland but they had 90 per cent of it, had road-specific details,  and were flawlessly finished.  

Every manufacturer/importer has lemons.   The Overland poultry car is highly revered and highly priced but let the nit picker and cynic have a closer look and Overland's rendition of the very fine screening as etched metal grills doesn't quite cut the mustard.  

Ditto for the flat Pullman end of the revered Pacific Limited 1932 ARA box cars.   Even the Max Gray cars from the 1960's  have a better rendition of the stamped "crimp" seams of steam era boxcar ends.

Good indicators of the brass "market" - Yoder USRA cement gons fetch anywhere from $300 unpainted up to $700 painted.  They were $425/435 new. A 1960's era built up Max Grey "perfection models" SOO Line sawtooth single sheathed boxcar fetches $450 when you can find them.   The Pacific limited NYC USRA cars were $250 when new.  Now they fetch $350 to $400.

Yes,  there are a "glut" of nice brass that is reasonably priced and easily obtainable.   Overland SD's or Dash 8's for under a grand? Yep!

Quality cars cheap? My $225 Glacier Park GS gondola and $175 Rich Yoder notch end C&O hopper are examples of that. 

Ne'er a better time to be in brass... as both a buyer and a seller. 

Yes, to the quote,"Every manufacturer/importer has lemons",  and I learned the hard way.   My love of the SD24s back in the 60's had me order 3 from hallmark models thinking they come from Japan and the expected quality from that country. WRONG, They switched to Korea and a manufacturer who had not got to speed making models. The ones I got from my pre order  unseen were awful and made me feel terrible as I spent a lot of good money for bad stuff.     That was one reason I was very hesitant about Atlas models as everything is pre order and I had never bought any of their O stuff and all is bought site unseen. I have been very happy with what Atlas produced.  

AMCDave posted:

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

I've been waiting for someone to mention this and I think this post is the first to do so.

Scarcity/Rarity is a bit flawed, because if no one wants something, put it in the so what file. That's rarity.

Doesn't matter if there are a million people out there that have an item, if there are 2 million people out there that want it, it will likely sell quickly and at a premium. That's demand.

Now the BIG caveat between brass and plastic: If there is BIG demand for plastic, the manufacturer will break out the molds and try and satisfy it. (assuming they are smart/aware).

That will NOT happen so quickly with brass because it is hand made. That will change when they invent the Star Wars brand replicator or maybe some kind of 'printer'.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

AMCDave posted:

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

 

Now the BIG caveat between brass and plastic: If there is BIG demand for plastic, the manufacturer will break out the molds and try and satisfy it. (assuming they are smart/aware).

That will NOT happen so quickly with brass because it is hand made. That will change when they invent the Star Wars brand replicator or maybe some kind of 'printer'.

Simon

This is true to an extent.......

The plastic kits that sell for big bucks today are kits most know are gone forever. During the 1960's the US auto manufactures PAID plastic model companies to make models of their cars.  At the end of the year the molds would be modified or scrapped.....as the thinking was their usefulness was done.  THESE  are the kits sought after today......a 1964 Corvair 4 door will never be kitted today......so if you have a mint AMT KIT...YOU HAVE GOLD. Some molds were kept intact....and collectors today know which ones they are......

More info about plastic anyone wanted to know!!!  thx