If you place toggles in the feeders from a bus, you'll have toggles all over the layout. Consider using bus for common circuits only, with hot feeds going through a central control panel. Attached is a photo of my control panel, showing maps of areas, toggle switches, and Gargraves controllers
It can be done either way. But a loop is desirable from an electrical distribution---reduce voltage drop---standpoint. You would not want a loop in the hot wire if you use command control. As noted above, my recommendation, based on over75 years building layouts, is that more maximum operating flexibility have many separately toggled blocks, which means you can't use a buss for hot, UNLESS you want to use relays for each block, which unnecessarily complicates matters for a newbie.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:My local Depot is woefully under stocked on many items. But they have lots of Romex and lamp cord.
Probably that's what they sell.
@RJR posted:If you place toggles in the feeders from a bus, you'll have toggles all over the layout. Consider using bus for common circuits only, with hot feeds going through a central control panel. Attached is a photo of my control panel, showing maps of areas, toggle switches, and Gargraves controllers
Don't discount sprinkling some relay boards around so you can switch the power locally and just run control wires to your panel.
I'm grateful for the assistance. Still lost, I'll have to enlist help as it gets closer. Thx for trying gents.
@Hp289 posted:I'm grateful for the assistance. Still lost, I'll have to enlist help as it gets closer. Thx for trying gents.
Guys,
This is why I suggested a hand drawn sketch of what you are trying to describe. HP289 is trying to understand your suggestions but they aren't clear enough.
The sketch doesn't need to be very elaborate or done by some software tools. Just convey the basic premise of your suggestion.
These discussions and advice based upon years of direct experience are great and very thought provoking.
I'm not sure I see the equivalence between a loop with several drops along the way, to parallel wires out to a drop point, which seems to be what is implied.
Just looking at the very bottom main track, I don't see why one feeder in the middle can't support that entire length from the lift around to the fixed bridge on the right. Run one pair of bus wires to that location and that side should be done. A second feeder off the same buss location could support both outer loops.
I can't draw it in because I don't know where the psu will be.
the ZW-L will be where it is in my primitive drawing. on. a small table in front of the 4 ft section. see above.
@Tom Tee posted:I always get my cable at an electrical supply house for better selection and price.
Like the chair. Homemade or store?
I agree with Gunrunnerjohn on the Size! My Layout was 50’ Long & I used 14Ga. House Wire for my Buss’s and from there to the Track Feeds, 18Ga. No voltage drop hardly at all !!
@superwarp1 posted:Like the chair. Homemade or store?
I believe Tom's is like mine, home brew. Mine has different "wheels" since it was designed to slide on carpet and not roll on hard floors.
If anyone has the know how and time, a schematic rough hand drawn is fine, w 14 ga bus and 18 feeders for this plan with ZW-L power would be helpful. For track and switch power only. The switches will be run off a 1032 or 1033, I have both. I even have a good KW.
No legacy, just toggles for blocks? and button switches that come with the Ross switches.
HP289, I assume you're question is addressed to me. That is correct. I use 6 transformer "handles". Power is from a Z4000, a postwar ZW, and a Powerhouse 180 that replaced both handles of a second ZW. From each output, a 14 gauge goes (through a TIU channel; I added DCS about 10b years after layout was built) to the appropriate section of the control panel, where it branches to each toggle switch. From each toggle switch, a 14 gauge wire goes out to the appropriate block. Every track switch marks the end of 3 blocks; severing the connections under those Gargraves switches that have connections made ending the blocks easy. Common power is by 12-gauge buss going all around the layout and looping back to origin. All accessories are also grounded into this loop. (I do not feed common through the bTIUs, but that's another story not affecting you.)
For the Gargraves switches, common is fed to the control panel and connects to each of the controllers, so only two 20-gauge wires go out to each switch. The third terminal on the switch motor is connected to a hot feed that runs around the layout just for the track switches, from an accessory terminal of a transformer.
The reason I use so many blocks is that I designed & built the layout before DCS, and wanted to run several locos on the same "handle". I could stop any loco anywhere by throwing the toggle.
Ugh, thank you. I need a drink.
Don't forget Rule G
Rule G? There's more I missed?
The railroad rule against alcohol use.
Oh crud, I'm screwed.
Since you use a ZW-L transformer, adding Legacy is as easy as connecting a single 12AWG wire between the Legacy Base U-Post and the ZW-L. The ZW-L can function as the equivalent of four Legacy Powermasters. Plus, running conventional trains with the Legacy remote is more fun. You can walk around the layout room and watch the trains run.
When you add Legacy locos later on, you can run both types of engines on your layout at the same time (just not on the same track). I highly recommend Legacy. The system is fantastic.
@Hp289 posted:Oh crud, I'm screwed.
Please email me as you do not have any contact information.
@Dylan the Train Man posted:Since you use a ZW-L transformer, adding Legacy is as easy as connecting a single 12AWG wire between the Legacy Base U-Post and the ZW-L.
Dylan,
I'm with you on the suggestion. The connection between the Legacy Base U-Post and the ZW-L is an excellent idea.
However, I offer a slight modification: This wire only carries a small radio signal. There is no substantial current of any consequence. So 12AWG is serious overkill. 18, 20, 22 AWG would be fine.
Keep the good suggestions coming.
Mike
... and don't forget to add a Henway ......
Sorry guys, got tied up with work last couple of days, but it's Friday and I'd love to get a little assistance to iron this out a bit more. Thank you for the suggestions, you guys clearly know your stuff!!!
1. Will someone with the expertise make me a drawing for conventional? This request is specifically for a rough schematic that I can follow. If I can visually see a labelled schematic, I can probably build it. I think!
I attached fresh pics of my layout plan. The ZW-L will sit on the inside up against that 4'x16' table, roughly in the middle in front of the yard. See my crumby pencil drawing on previous page. The switches for the switches can go on a small control panel with the layout on it next to the ZW-L. I'll buy toggles or whatever you tell me I need. I figured the single pole something switch the engineer designer Lionel guy recommends in his videos for switches, or maybe the ones that come with the Ross switches? Then some switches on the control panel to control the blocks based on where my insulator pins are on the track plan? See above... ie: the yard areas and crossover switches. Remember -conventional so I need some blocking because I intend to keep trains parked in those sidings/yard.
I'd like to run 14ga around, with 18ga feeders up. I don't know how to wire in the Ross switches. But based on what I have learned, I will run them separately off a postwar 1033 transformer I have.
Accessories will also run separately off another postwar 1032 I have, but do not include that in this discussion, that's later. I just for now need assistance with a visual schematic to follow to power up and run CONVENTIONALLY this layout and be able to power and run the switches as indicated above. I do not think I want to get into adding relays and more sophisticated methods. Track and Switch for now.
Any mentors here have time to help a newb get over this hurdle by assisting with the above specific request? Thank you...tremendously. PS: I have updated my profile to include my email if you want to go offline. THANKS!!!
Can anyone help Hp289 out per his request?
Hello
Electricity is a fun and funny animal.
The Amperage is the key component in our little slice of Heaven known as Model Railroading with AC power.
Alternating Current
The CURRENT DRAW at any given time at any given point on your trackage/wiring is determined by the LOAD …
This means that while you’re power source has the ability to provide 10 Amps-it will only provide what the LOAD asks it to provide.
Since your total track length is so short, the concerns for Resistance and Voltage Drop are not worth the effort, except as “nice to know”.
I can teach you Basic Electrical Theory if you’re interested.
There are ways to make the LAWS of OHM work in your favor
And making the Coulombs perform at our command is always fun😁
Based on experience, I take the position that voltage drop is a major issue on a model train layout.
The request, can anyone focus on the request?
I’m looking at it. Basically I would run a pair of black and red 14 ga to each loop from two different transformer outputs. Red (A output) to center rail and black (U output) to outside rails. And using another transformer or output, to a bank of on/off switches,a red (A) wire to all the switches and the switched side from each switch to each siding center rail. And of course, the black wires, the U side of the circuit to all the outside rails.
A drawing specific to my layout would be more helpful if anyone has the time.
@superwarp1 posted:Like the chair. Homemade or store?
Gary, The chair is an early plastic resale shop item and the chassis is a standard furniture dolly which I sectioned to make a drop center flat car type load shelf. This allows for maximum head room. The seat is so low that it will bottom out on a small construction screw.
Before I found the old chair and did surgery on the dolly, I simply fastened some 2 x 3 pieces of wood and a hunk of plywood under the furniture dolly and sat in the "pocket" on a cushion.
I also use a Topside and Bottomside creeper to work on the layout.
Prior to all the above I usually laid out heavy poly plastic under a clients layout and slid around on the 6 or 8 mil plastic sheet.
If I have 18 volts or so going around the bus with say 10-12 amps full load... do the feeders have to be 14 ga also? OR, does the voltage split and reduce by the number of feeders? ie: if 20 volts/10 amps travel around and up 4 feeders (just for simple math) does that mean the feeders only carry 5 volts/2.5 amps each, thus allowing the smaller feeder wires?
Tje rules of electricity apply
and are dependent on your wiring setup
But, because your layout is so small
your issues will be small.
I’m sending you an email
if you want verbal assistance
send your phone #
its obvious you’re getting a lot of help
but it ain’t necessarily the help that you need.
The voltage would be the same on all the feeders (ie 18v). This is technically a parallel circuit (the engine(s) operating are the load ie resistance), which means the current on each feeder would be a a fraction of the total current draw, so in your example 2.5 AMPS/feed would be correct@ 10 amps w 4 drops. In a parallel circuit the voltage is constant but the current is different on the parallel branches.
Bigkid, your conclusion regarding 2.5 amp/drop is only correct if there are no track blocks involved. In such event, only feeders to areas where train is drawing power are carrying current.
For the record, I'd note that using an ohmmeter to measure very low, e.g., < 1 ohm, is difficult to measure accurately, and if a train is pulling 6 amps, a 0.5 ohm resistance will cur voltage by 3. Wire resistance tables do not take into account the quality of your connections. Best test is to put a voltmeter on a block at max distance from feed, get a reading, and then run a train into block and then check reading while train running with smoke on acnd car lights lit.
Bigkid
this is not correct
”which means the current on each feeder would be a a fraction of the total current draw, so in your example 2.5 AMPS/feed would be correct@ 10 amps w 4 drops”
current only is drawn where there is a load…
because current flows from positive to negative..which means there has to be an electron vacancy in the valence band -to create movement of electrons, if there is no load to draw current there is no current flow.
@1drummer posted:Bigkid
this is not correct
”which means the current on each feeder would be a a fraction of the total current draw, so in your example 2.5 AMPS/feed would be correct@ 10 amps w 4 drops”
current only is drawn where there is a load…
because current flows from positive to negative..which means there has to be an electron vacancy in the valence band -to create movement of electrons, if there is no load to draw current there is no current flow.
If he is running 10-12 amps it means there is load there, likely several engines. Without load you don't have current like that.
@RJR posted:Bigkid, your conclusion regarding 2.5 amp/drop is only correct if there are no track blocks involved. In such event, only feeders to areas where train is drawing power are carrying current.
For the record, I'd note that using an ohmmeter to measure very low, e.g., < 1 ohm, is difficult to measure accurately, and if a train is pulling 6 amps, a 0.5 ohm resistance will cur voltage by 3. Wire resistance tables do not take into account the quality of your connections. Best test is to put a voltmeter on a block at max distance from feed, get a reading, and then run a train into block and then check reading while train running with smoke on acnd car lights lit.
Yeah, the OP wasn't that clear if he was using blocks or if he had one bus feeding all the tracks (ie running pure command control), I asked that a while back and I don't think they anwered. If you have a block then the current would be whatever the load in that block is pulling and would be divided among the feeders for that block. My thought was that he wasn't using blocks.
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