Calling All Lionel Pocahantas Owners - PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

 

 

20 years ago it was this.  Interesting that the same family of engines suffers the same paint alignment issue.  I shimmed my Daylight with rubber grommets producing something I could live with yet not perfection.

 

Bruce

No you are not!!!

Look at the top image #611 TMCC - the stripe is in the middle between the top of the tender casting and the round plate at the bottom of the casting.

On the bottom image #611 Legacy - the stripe is higher (closer to the top of the casting) and there is a wider distance between the stripe and the round plate.

Plainly put, the stripe was painted TOO HIGH on the tender!

Thanks to Joe and leapinlarry for supplying the photos.

Folks,

 

Here's the Lionel Legacy 612J I received over a year ago. From what I understand, this locomotive and its #611 twin-brother were produced in the same production run.  But #611 has been warehoused in NC for 18+ months awaiting arrival of the Pocahontas aluminum passenger cars to package the passenger set that was catalog'd God knows how many years ago now. 

 

Sorry for the poor quality, quick-and-dirty iPhone photo in existing light.  But it's good enough to depict the problem at hand...

 

The mis-aligned stripes are not the worst problem to have.  But I also don't expect Lionel to step up to the plate and fix it either.  That's not to say that they shouldn't produce better quality products.  I just have come to the realization that these types of details are no long important to them.  The QA in China stinks and goes largely unsupervised.  Worst case scenario, let's call it non-existent.

 

I guess I'm just glad to pretty much be done building my O-Gauge roster these days.  I'd probably be more p!$$ed off if I still planned to purchase a dozen or so locomotives in the coming year or two.  But those days are gone for me.  A few here and there very selectively, and that's about it.

 

Do I wish Lionel would take these issues more seriously?  Absolutely, if they're going to a BTO business model where they expect folks to plunk down pre-orders (and sometimes $$$ to go with it), they sure as all heck better produce models as they are depicted in the catalog.  Are they going to take these issues more seriously?  I doubt it.   And do they honestly care?  Definitely not  -- especially as long as folks continue to buy this stuff.

 

If an executive at Lionel reads this characterization and takes exception to it, then so be it.  But until they begin to deliver product that doesn't exhibit these kinds of careless issues, we're gonna draw our own conclusions.    If they don't want us to draw these conclusions, then they should fix the problem.  It's a very simple strategy.

 

David

Again, I think the other thread on this subject pretty conclusively shows that the problem is not the paint but that the rear of the loco is mounted too low.  The photo you post looks identical to the one BigJim posted on that thread, etc. 

 

It is a very easy fix to insert a few washers and raise the rear of the loco by 1/8 inch on the chassis.  

It's always something to try...a spacer can be inserted and removed if the results are not good.

David,

 

I agree with you, I am disgusted with waiting so long for this Pocahontas set and knowing that it has defects with the passenger set windows, stripes and without the spokes on the pilot wheels as pictured in the 2012 catalog. Worse is that I still do not have the delivery of the set due to weather related issues in Boston. I am not sure I even want this set now, but believe I should honor my order with the dealer. The last new Lionel engine I purchased was when the TMCC scale GG-1 was produced. It was a terrific engine. From what I read, the new Lionel Legacy Big Boy was a good choice as well. I have enjoyed this hobby for 66 years and hope these type of defects do not discourage those just new to the hobby.

Maybe if you sell enough "great" $2400 bigboys, the rest of the stuff is just " filler", or meh, "thats good enough" items.

 

I can certainly tell you I won't be opening up my BTO loco until I see and hear someone elses first.

 

 

The worst part is, Lionel had gotten the striping right on the first one

 

 

Thanks for the effort Lee, but, the other thread and your red line do not prove anything. 

 

Witness the following photos:

Note that the stripe on the engine widens behind the rear driver, so, the bottom measurement of the stripe is of no consequence. Measurements close enough for government work.

 

Top of stripe at front of engine measures 2-13/16"

 

 

 

Top of stripe at the rear of the engine measures 2-13/16". So the stripe is parallel to the top of the rail.

Bottom of stripe here measures 2-5/16".

 

 

Top of stripe at the front of the tender measures 2-15/16". 1/8" above the stripe on the engine.

Bottom of stripe measures 2-7/16". Showing that the stripe on the engine & tender are the same width, but, different heights.

 

 

Top of stripe at the rear of the tender measures 2-15/16".

Bottom of stripe measures 2-7/16". So the stripe is parallel to the top of the rail and the same width for its length.

 

 

On top of all of that, for you 612 owners, guess what? And this is really going to make you mad! That "2" is not an N&W "2". Looks like a backwards "S"!!!

Here is what it should look like.

 

This is yet another example of what I mean about somebody just not giving a hoot.  It begs the questions like, "What exactly ARE the responsibilities of a product manager here in the US when stuff is made overseas?", and "Who signs off on the final graphics/features of the production units?".

 

Really... the folks here in the States obviously have no direct manufacturing responsibility anymore.  That's painfully obvious.   So I'm still confused as to what they really DO aside from collecting a paycheck and adding to the cost we consumers pay for this stuff.    Is it laziness?  Incompetence? Failure to communicate on a cultural level with the overseas manufacturing contractor? Frustration that production schedules are what they are, so they just throw up their hands and rejoice when the product even gets manufactured at all -- and forget about any kind of review process?  Does Lionel personnel stateside actually think we toy train enthusiasts are OK with this stuff shipping like this?  All of the above?  Just what IS the problem?

 

Inquiring minds who are shelling out the big bucks for these high-priced "models" really would like to know.  Or perhaps I've misspoken... these aren't really the high-priced models at all.  $1K is chump change.  We've gotta pony up $2K for Vision Line steamers now in order to get even these obvious details right.  Yes... that must be it!!! 

 

David

I don't think I am ever gonna bash mth again .. After seeing this .. I was Actually thinking about buying this set.. Maybe I buy the mth set .

Thanks Big Jim!

 

I too noticed the weird #2 on the 612. I don't even think it's a backward 5. 

 

I just received my set tonight. Got home late. I'm wondering whether I should open it up or send it back. I'm going to sleep on it. 

A big thank you Big Jim!..You nailed it with the measurements.  I didn't even want to mention the "2" on the 612 after seeing the stripe issue.  For me personally this kind of an error is unacceptable....period. 

 

Kevin I would open it just for the sake of curiosity.

Interesting how the pendulum swings back and forth with time.    I can remember the days when MTH steamers were on top in terms of detail, features (always the best smoke units especially when Lionel's were anemic), and operational smoothness.

 

Then Lionel developed Legacy... where they fine-tuned slow-speed control to a point where it was smooth as silk, and really hit a grand slam in the sounds department.  Simultaneous to those fine Lionel developments, MTH lost their steam locomotive manufacturer in China for almost 2 years, and MTH steam fell off everyone's radar screen -- especially here in the US.  Lionel became the de facto steam supplier, and the company seemed untouchable.

 

So here we are in 2015... and MTH is now finally back in stride delivering steam locomotives on a regular basis...  Lionel still admittedly has the edge in the sounds department... Yet recent silly and sloppy manufacturing issues are clearly jeopardizing their once "untouchable" status.  Between the Berks with front pilot bushings falling out before we even place the locomotive on the rails, to CZ aluminum cars that don't even look like they belong in the same set, to glaring oversights in the graphics department, Lionel is quickly garnering quite the reputation for producing high-priced junk. 

 

Only with a group as loyal and forgiving as toy train enthusiasts would a company who produced products like that survive.  Really amazing when we think about it.

 

But yes... I do think MTH is back in the race again in many ways.  Perhaps not the dominating player in O-gauge steam that they were 10-15 years ago.  But if folks are even considering them again for serious steam locomotive purchases, that says a lot in its own right.  All at a time when Lionel could have written their own ticket and then some.

 

David

 

 

I believe our retail dealers should complain to the manufacture about the poor quality on these "Would Have Been" beautiful sets. Their customers are now debating with themselves if they should cancel their orders and/or demand their money back. Customers should complain directly to the manufacture as well. These are, expensive engines and sets!

Question.. Did the Legacy J come with whistle steam? 

I say that because until yesterday it had been years since I've ran the J. I had forgotten how smooth and slow the older TMCC engine ran under Legacy and how well it smoked and how great it sounds with RS5. 

Joe   

 

Sadly, it did not.  

My Legacy J 611 seems a lot closer than others. Kind of heart breaking when you spend $1500 on a train set.

I'm sure they hear aboutt complaints on passenger cars with fully detailed interiors except people or $650 diesels with incorrect headlight placement. 

As they say, voting with your wallet sends the biggest message.

Joe

 

Sure looks like 1/8" to me Brandon

Your probably right, I don't have a perfect side angle shot of the legacy 611, Makes me wonder if the Sunset K2A strip is correct, Not many pictures floating around of them.

I bought a Sony 4k tv yesterday it worked right of the box and no defects .. It's made in China and cost the same as this set.. I haven't bought a Lionel engine in the last 4  that didn't need something fixed..

Does this soothe your soul?

 

The only thing it does for me is making me want it. lol

 

That is just beautiful makes my J look like a toy compared to that detail.

Lets not forget that while Lionel is the leader in the sound dept, there have been poor efforts made there too. I.E. the raspy poorly done hooter used on every single mallet regardless of type or roadname, and most recently NKP ,C&O and Erie Berks all having the NKP whistle.

 

Ironically this new J whistle is the next best thing until 611 runs again, yet they flubbed the details and left off whistle steam

 

How about that rediculous waterlogged Pennsy turbine with the 1990 era diecast coal load

 

Which brings me back to my statement above, unless your shelling out $2000 for a vision line steamer, every thing else is well thats good/close enough

 

And maybe its time to dump that lousy diagnostics that shuts the smoke unit down at the slightest hiccup. 

 

 Count me in as someone who's seriously considering MTH, not thrilled with the sound package but it seems like in most cases you know what your getting at a much more reasonable price especially when considering a set.

 

Wow the 2 is ridiculous!

 

All our comments here just further confirm we live in an era where an operator's culture dominates, 'cause in a collector's era folks would be treating all these goofs as "valuable" variations and/or production errors!  And they'd be clamoring to buy them. 

 

Of course, making the entire production run with these errors defeats the thinking that production errors were one-off -- dare I say "rare" -- occurrences. 

 

David

Actually, it almost appears more like a reversed letter "S".

 

Unfortunately, this is the reality that nobody would admit to ever imagining back when it was decided to outsource production to overseas countries.  In particular, the Eastern cultures have languages based on symbols rather than individual Arabic letters.  So I can easily see where a Chinese worker unfamiliar with the English language simply chose a "close enough" symbol (in their view), when the correct symbol was unavailable for whatever reason. 

 

Admittedly very minor, but it's the epitome of cultural differences.  To them, there's nothing wrong... close enough, right?  To us, it's silly and unacceptable. 

 

David

I disagree, the Koreans made some of our " best" models, and Sunset/3rd rail is mnufacturing in china as well.

 

I just sent Mr. Reagan an email asking him to fix the stripe on the Scale N&W Legacy J tender. My proposal was a swap program that would allow owners to send in their mistake tender shell and swap it for a correct one.

How about fixing the "2" on the 612?

It will be interesting to see what the response is...I hope Lionel will step up and correct the problem.

If you think that is bad (which it is), check out the stripe alignment on the Lionel MPC 8100 class J.

 

8100 class J

This issue is one of communication -- not cultural difference in and of itself.  I was simply stating a potential scenario that could easily occur when little to no communication/supervision is in play during the production process. 

 

Whether it's an accurate assumption or not, we're getting the distinct impression that very little supervision of Lionel's overseas production is in place these days... EXCEPT (once again) for Vision Line products, where Lionel has touted close supervision of the assembly process for the hundreds and thousands of parts that go into a sophisticated Vision Line steam locomotive.  But I guess that's what $2K pays for.  Down in the $1K zone, we get what we get:   Factory workers/managers making unsupervised/unapproved decisions that affect the quality of the product.

 

Same can be said for communication.  Thinking back to to the recent CZ debacle, we couldn't even get straight answers from ANYONE at Lionel Stateside as to whether the observation car would be produced with a dome or not.  Only when the product shipped to dealers did we know the real answer.  Even after a nearly 3-year wait, that's both sad and unacceptable. 

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'd be thrilled if someone could enlighten us to the responsibilities of a Lionel product manager working here in the States?  Right now, I haven't got a clue... and most days it appears that Lionel doesn't either. 

 

David

>>>The last new Lionel engine I purchased was when the TMCC scale GG-1 was produced. It was a terrific engine. From what I read, the new Lionel Legacy Big Boy was a good choice as well.<<

 

It remains to be seen how good a choice it was...I recently read that with more and more electronics stuffed into cars every year (multiple computers etc.) bringing with it huge repair costs, folks should think twice about buying rather then lease a new car today.  Looks to be the same issue in 1/4 scale.

Joe

 

Thanks Big Jim!

I'll say it again like I have said before, Lionel needs to get better with the QC of these high priced models, kind of dissapointing after waiting two years on an iconic engine like this, only to let down by poor QC.  Instead of moving to NC... they probably should have set up shop in China to review their product better. 

Also, if its an easy fix for the consumer, should be an easy fix from the factory.