Cardboard Hiawatha Passenger Train?

My only thoughts as to why this might not be a "war toy" is the design of the engine.  However, I do not know when the Milwaukee Road transitioned from steam Hiawathas to diesel Hiawathas.

I see that the Milwaukee Road purchased its first EMD E6 motors in 1941, so possibly it is a war toy or possibly a promotional or advertising item that was produced for the Milwaukee Road.

That locomotive is an ALCO  DL-109. Definitely purchased by Milwaukee road before WWII.

I have no idea when the toy was made, but it's amazing that it lasted this long.

Wikipedia shows the Milwaukee Road purchasing ALCO DL-107s in 1941.  So it certainly could be some sort of war toy.

I am wondering if the detail and material of this might lead into perhaps the "Advertising" area?

I can see this as a model sitting on a booking ticket office shelf, or perhaps travel agency desk in the post war period ?

Being cardboard I cant see it holding up too well as a kiddies toy and espescially not with many years of age behind it? No makers mark, which it surely would have had if marketed as a toy , because after all it would cost no more to put it on it when printing ?

All that kinda makes me think it might have been issued by the railway itself as advertising their beautiful streamline flagship ?

Just ruminating

But what a find regardless!

Fatman posted:

I am wondering if the detail and material of this might lead into perhaps the "Advertising" area?

I can see this as a model sitting on a booking ticket office shelf, or perhaps travel agency desk in the post war period ?

Being cardboard I cant see it holding up too well as a kiddies toy and espescially not with many years of age behind it? No makers mark, which it surely would have had if marketed as a toy , because after all it would cost no more to put it on it when printing ?

All that kinda makes me think it might have been issued by the railway itself as advertising their beautiful streamline flagship ?

 

Just ruminating

 

But what a find regardless!

I had thought advertising for the railroad at first too, but have since changed my mind.  Reason being is that neither the engine or cars say "Milwaukee Road" or "Chicago Milwaukee & St. Paul RR" on the sides and I cannot see the railroad producing an advertising piece without having their name prominently on the item.  

What is the size of this train. They look like Strombecker, but as far as I know they only made H0 (1:87) trains. More here: http://collectair.org/strombecker.html and http://collectair.org/strombecker2.html

Regards

Fred

sncf231e posted:

What is the size of this train. They look like Strombecker, but as far as I know they only made H0 (1:87) trains. More here: http://collectair.org/strombecker.html and http://collectair.org/strombecker2.html

Regards

Fred

 

The diesel locomotive's dimensions are: length - 16". width - 2  7/16", height - 3  1/4"

The coach and observation cars have the same width and height but are only 15" in length.

Bob Nelson

The Strombecker kits look more elaborate and appear to be more wood than cardboard. Compare the Strombecker wheels to those in Bob’s photos. The Strombecker wheels are turned from higher quality wood.

This doesn’t look homemade. The printing seems to be right on the cardboard like model boxes or a very high quality lamination. The scroll cutting of the sides is precise, almost like a puzzle would be cut. The front of the engine seems to be separately applied and connected to the sides with a tab and slot method. The wheels are wood and only painted on one side with one flat coat. The wood is low quality, maybe plywood. The roofs are separate, but I can’t tell how they are attached. The edges of the cardboard are unfinished. It is a dense cardboard, like puzzle material. 

There is something behind the train in the first picture. I can’t make it out. Is it a luggage cart?

George

Regardless of its construction materials, that is one COOL rendition. A shame it lacks the road name though, but GLAD it found a proper home! 😐

George,

Great eyes!  It is a luggage cart.

More photos.

Bottom of DL-109 locomotiive:  

Bottom of White Bear Lake passenger car:

Bottom of CHIPPEWA FALLS  observation car:

This forum has changed my mind.  Based on the above photos, I now believe the entire cardboard train is too fragile to be a "war toy".  Obviously, kids could destroy it in seconds.  However, what it's intended use was I still don't know. Therefore, I am going to ask the President of the Milwaukee Road Historical Association, Bob Storozuk, if he knows any details on who, when, where, and why it was made.  I will post his answer here.

Bob Nelson

At any rate, a fascinating artifact! Cardboardplate?  😁

Could it have been a cereal box promo?

RoyBoy posted:

Could it have been a cereal box promo?

I found a cereal box promotion train online. This is much thicker cardboard than that. 

Bob, Have you considered sending it to TCA for the "Who dunit?" section in the TCQ?

I think the reason it doesn't have a roadname is due to licensing. I don't think the name "Hiawatha" was trademarked. The logo was though.

George

George S posted:

RoyBoy posted:

Could it have been a cereal box promo?

I found a cereal box promotion train online. This is much thicker cardboard than that. 

Bob, Have you considered sending it to TCA for the "Who dunit?" section in the TCQ?

I think the reason it doesn't have a roadname is due to licensing. I don't think the name "Hiawatha" was trademarked. The logo was though.

George

George,

Excellent idea.  I will do that.

Bob Nelson

Hmm - seems like O gauge sized. A little bigger and I'd put a mechanism under it for standard gauge.

Jim

Jim Waterman posted:

Hmm - seems like O gauge sized. A little bigger and I'd put a mechanism under it for standard gauge.

Jim

Jim,

I agree!  The scale of the train appears to be around 1:48 or O gauge.  However, the distance between the wheels is about 2 1/8", i.e., closer to Standard Gauge than to O gauge.  Therefore, what "mechanism" would you install?

Bob Nelson

Looks like it might have been created by papercraftsquare.com or on behance.com 

RoyBoy posted:

Could it have been a cereal box promo?

Well it’s not one of the 16 that Kix did. See here.

https://www.hakes.com/Auction/...UT-OUTS-COMPLETE-SET

George

Jim O'C posted:

Looks like it might have been created by papercraftsquare.com or on behance.com 

 

It looks older than the papercraftsquare.com projects. Also, it looks to be a commercial lamination on the cardboard, not something someone printed on a inkjet or laser printer. The cuts, while a bit crude, are very smooth. They don't look like a homemade project.

George

I sent a query to Lori at the TCA's library.  She informed me of other recent inquires into this same topic and said that she would forward the link of this discussion to those individual as well as to several TCA members and groups including the TCA's Paper and Memorabilia group.  I will let you know what I hear back from her.

Bob Nelson 

So... what did you find?

@RoyBoy posted:

So... what did you find?

No reply yet.  I'll touch base with TCA again and see if they ever found out anything.

Bob Nelson

Regardless of origin or intended purpose, it is an amazing and unique artifact that you should cherish! As we used to say back in the day: "Don't sweat the small stuff"!  :-)

I have sent messages to both the TCA and the Milwaukee Road Historical Society and am currently waiting for their replies.  If and when they reply, I will let you know what they say.

Bob Nelson

@navy.seal posted:

I have sent messages to both the TCA and the Milwaukee Road Historical Society and am currently waiting for their replies.  If and when they reply, I will let you know what they say.

Bob Nelson

The TCA replied but unfortunately they have no information on the cardboard train.

I am still waiting to hear back from the MRHA.

I also ask the Milwaukee Road Archieve's librarians if they had any info on the train and am waiting to hear back from them. 

Bob Nelson

Those are very interesting items and we hope to hear more information. Is it possible to open a car body to look for possible clues about the origins?

I would not recommend doing anything that might damage this unique artifact!