Cast Iron American Flyer

It's 1930-1931 and without the manual reverse it is a #3195.  There is a very long running thread over on the other mag site titled Prewar American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation and there is an extensive discussion of these locomotives starting at the bottom of page 5 of the thread and running through page 6.

Norgill99

  Here are some pictures of some of the locomotives that were mentioned but not pictured in the thread I cited in my first post.

#3185

The small 0-4-0 from set #1101 ca. 1921-22

Leftover engine - my designation is #3190L where the L stands for leftovers - 3190 superstructure - milled out to take the side manual reverse unit for the 1932 #3307 diecast 2-4-2 along with #3307 siderods and tender - paint filled holes for bracket for the 2 wheel lead truck, paint filled holes for the screw mount for the headlight visor and all brass labels replaced with decals.

Thanks again, Robert.  I admit I did not find the “the other mag site titled Prewar American Flyer”... I just signed-up as a new member here, and do not know the terminology, or how to navigate the different forums well.  Is “the other mag site” a different web-site, or a forum here somewhere? I used the “search” tab at the top, “Prewar American Flyer Pictures”, and had no luck. Saw numerous related topics, but failed in finding the thread you referenced. Would like very much to see the thread if you can help me get there.

Question: the reference #3195 means more than the actual plate number on the locomotive; some have 3195 plate, and others have no plate or two-plates that just read “American Flyer Lines”?

BTW, I have ordered “Greenberg’s guide to American Flyer Prewar O-gauge” from Amazon...seemed to be highly regarded, so maybe I will learn something pertinent. 😊

Thank you again!

Robert is refering to a thread by that name that I have hosted for over 12 years on the Classic Toy Trains site. If you Google the title of the thread it should be easy to find.  I'll let Robert answer your other questions.

Wecome Aboard

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Norgil99 I just sent you a side e-mail with the information on the other site.  As for #3195 and the plates under the cab - yes, you can have #3195 on both sides, #3195 on one side and an American Flyer Tab on the others and you can also have the situation with an American Flyer plate on both sides.  Sometimes, when their are American Flyer Plates on both sides you will find #3195 rubber stamped underneath the cab.  In addition to all of this there is a modification of the superstructure casting which is identified as #3195X.  As far as I know this number only shows up as a rubber stamp on the underside of the locomotive cab.

...and then there are the "leftover" castings which have no numbers either under the cabs or rubber stamped on the underside.  

Apparently, Chicago AF was not very consistent with either their numbering or badging (or both), which makes for interesting collecting to say the least!

Success, ty Robert and Greg! I found it, and the photos you mentioned (i.e. those posted by mersenne6)... I will spend additional time there, as the pictures are beautiful examples and I have already spotted additional pieces that I acquired with the locomotive. Also, the Greenberg’s Guide I mentioned has arrived, and I have already learned some things: 

Although it was not fully apparent in my first photo posts, I am at least for now convinced that my locomotive is a 3197 with manual reverse (see new photo post); according to Greenberg, a “3193 LOCOMOTIVE-TENDER COMBINATION (Type III cast-iron engine (B), 3196 Type II tender). The heavier cast-iron coal load undoubtedly the reason it is missing altogether from my tender!

Again, it is in pretty bad shape, but to me a pretty fascinating first-acquisition! Thank you for your assistance, gentlemen...I think I might be hooked!

Tinplate,  I read in Greenberg that the numerous varieties indicate “American Flyer was using-up parts” which accounted for the brass plate inconsistencies...

Another quote, from a Mr Chaplin (Engineer, Chicago Flyer from 1929-1938), regarding “complexity of equipment and frequent changes”, states that the “trains were just as confusing to our production and cost accounting departments as they are to collectors today.”

...no date provided for the quote.

Next question is what to do now? 
Do I leave it as is and keep it on a shelf or in a box as “my first”, try to clean it up (it is pretty dusty, and insulation compromised...I sure would not put electricity to it), look to repair/restore it, or consider it scrap-parts and try to reinvest it in something better?

BTW, I am a Gilbert (no relation to A.C. that I know of), and had heard of the name connection to “Erector set” and “American Flyer”.  That was why I noticed it in the first place, at a local antique store...just had no idea my first flyer would predate that connection. 🧐 😊  I will not tell you what I paid, but at least it was NOT the full asking-price, lol! 
Thanks again, everyone, I have enjoyed hearing from you...

When I first posted, my son said, “ it’s some random train blog, you probably will not get a reply for weeks or months, maybe never.”  I truly appreciate the replies you posted!

Norgil99 - Well, now you know (as does your son) that this OGR forum (as well as the others on this site) have a lot of participants whose knowledge of just about any aspect of trains - toy, model, real is very impressive and furthermore they are only too happy to share their knowledge with others.

   To your immediate purchase.  

1. It is a #3197

2. The surface condition looks pretty good - I've seen far worse.

3. I would recommend getting a bottle of Mothers California Gold Carnauba Cleaner Wax, a discarded white cotton t-shirt, some Q-tips, and and old toothbrush and use this combination on the painted surfaces of your engine.  Just looking at it I think you will be surprised at the results you get after a good cleaning.  The cleaning wax I recommend is just one of several.  Over on a separate thread on this site is a discussion concerning cleaning Marx tinplate.  I haven't used the products they recommend but I have no doubt you would get the same results using the cleaning wax someone in that thread recommended. - The key thing is take your time and, if you have doubts, just try cleaning a small, smooth portion of the boiler casting and see what you see.

4. As for getting it running - you would want to replace the rotted insulation.  The bigger issue will be the drivers.  Unless you are extremely lucky they are "blown" - warped and expanded, and won't turn.  No one makes exact copies of the drivers but there is a replacement driver for one of the other pre-war American Flyer engines that can be used.  Those of us who like these engines (such as myself) really wish accurate reproduction drivers were available for them.  I know I could use about 20 , 4 wheel, sets just for the engines I have.

Robert S. Butler posted:

 

4. ... I know I could use about 20 , 4 wheel, sets just for the engines I have.

Robert,

LOL!  I just bought out Hennings stock of MEW wheels of this style and there were only 17 sets (I was hoping to get 30 sets).   I would have bought them at York last October, but he did not have this type of wheel at York. 

No more wheels of this type until he finds a new company to do the castings and gets one of his molds fixed.  Harry indicated that they had used slightly too thick of metal for the steel tires and had broken the mold on the last batch of wheels.  

My spring/summer project is going to be re-wheeling a bunch of steam engines.  Currently working on tuning up/re-wheeling several 1680 Hudsons.  

NWL

NWL - what I really wish Henning or someone else would do would be to make wheels that are an exact match for those on the 3195, 3195X, 3197, 3198, 3180, and 3190 engines.  I know the wheel sets you have work on these engines and it was those wheels I was recommending to Norgil99 as a viable alternative.

  I have one set of those. I also have a jewelers mill and I've been thinking of trying to mill out the regions between the spokes to see if what I get is a better approximation to the original wheels.

Robert S. Butler posted:

NWL - what I really wish Henning or someone else would do would be to make wheels that are an exact match for those on the 3195, 3195X, 3197, 3198, 3180, and 3190 engines.  I know the wheel sets you have work on these engines and it was those wheels I was recommending to Norgil99 as a viable alternative.

  I have one set of those. I also have a jewelers mill and I've been thinking of trying to mill out the regions between the spokes to see if what I get is a better approximation to the original wheels.

I simply wish MEW would make wheels for steam engines that would accept the steel gears.  I had thought of seeing if I could get some of the MEW gears machined to take a steel gear, but finally decided against it and am going with the MEW wheels.  

NWL

Robert S. Butler posted:

As for getting it running - you would want to replace the rotted insulation.  The bigger issue will be the drivers.  Unless you are extremely lucky they are "blown" - warped and expanded, and won't turn.

Are blown drivers a difficult thing to assess? This one rolls freely...wheels, gear, and motor unit inside the casing all spin/turn easily. I probably will not try to make it run for now, but I will take your advice and polish it up cautiously. Many of the pictures I see, show missing wheel coupling-rods/piston-rods; which appear to be brass having a single screw. I would like to replace that feature, just for appearance if they are available as a remanufactured part (Henning maybe?).  If someone could hardmail me a pencil tracing of one, I might could make it myself...

speaking of wheels and other parts, are there records available of the original engineering specs?

If it rolls freely on three rail track then it sounds like you have one of those rare ones with no wheel issues.  The only replacement side rods are cosmetic - no one makes reproductions that can be used for running.  As for the screw holding the side rod to the wheel - there are two pieces - a very small spacer and the screw itself.  Assuming someone else doesn't chime in with screw size and pitch I'll pull one of mine out of storage and take some measurements and report back.

  (Additional thought) Let me amend the comment concerning side rods.  I forgot there are actually 2 different types.  There are the diecast for which only cosmetic reproductions are available and then there are the stamped sheet metal.  The stamped sheet metal side rods have been reproduced and are available and they are appropriate for #3195 and #3197 whereas the diecast are usually found on #3195X and #3198.  I've seen the stamped sheet metal for sale at various train meets from parts vendors - what I don't know is who makes them or what the replacement part number might be.   

  As for engineering specs and original drawings - I don't know but my guess would be not.