Circa 1960 Lionel boxes falling apart.

I have that issue with many MPC era boxes where the flaps apparently can only be open a few time before they separate.  Maybe the box supplier had a QA issue.

Brendan

I agree with Brendan, Alan.

That said, 90 degrees outside could mean well above that in the attic on a sunny day.  I have a ranch style home with a thermostatically controlled attic fan, set to engage at a temp of 90 degrees in the attic. On a sunny 70-75 degree day it will go on.  I would imagine that attic temp without an attic fan, when it is 90 on a sunny day, would be over 110.

Doesn't the Pacific Northwest have high humidity.  I think the high humidity would swell the cardboard making the boxes fragile to open. Just a thought.

Forest

This seems to be the norm unless the boxes were well cared for.  The flap can be damaged when new if not opened with care - even today, if you want to keep the box you need to open the flaps with tool to 'unlock' the flaps so they don't tear.  I have purchased a lot of old trains, toys, and vacuum tubes (another hobby) where the flap from one end loose inside the box.  Also, if the liner is not present the cars can roll and damage the ends of the box.

Another problem with old window boxes is the cellophane is punctured or has become unglued from the box.

Brendan posted:

I have that issue with many MPC era boxes where the flaps apparently can only be open a few time before they separate.  Maybe the box supplier had a QA issue.

Brendan

Maybe it's not a QA issue, but rather the manufacturers using cardstock that's simply cheaper.  Maybe all they want are boxes sturdy enough to make it to the customer plus a few years.

It's one thing that the boxes are pretty thin these days; but I imagine that they could be made with structural integrity in mind.  But, I don't think that's much of a priority in a land of profits over quality.

Alan

My two cents....paper, like the wood it comes from really isnt quite dead. The capillary action from absorbing, then losing moisture certainly "works" the paper during all the seasonal changes, which also occur inside ones' house/attic or basement.  And as you surmised, perhaps the actual paper comprising the box has been cheapened.  Just submitting a postulation.

ajzend posted:

Brendan posted:

I have that issue with many MPC era boxes where the flaps apparently can only be open a few time before they separate.  Maybe the box supplier had a QA issue.

Brendan

Maybe it's not a QA issue, but rather the manufacturers using cardstock that's simply cheaper.  Maybe all they want are boxes sturdy enough to make it to the customer plus a few years.

It's one thing that the boxes are pretty thin these days; but I imagine that they could be made with structural integrity in mind.  But, I don't think that's much of a priority in a land of profits over quality.

Alan

 

You guys do know that these items and their boxes were not sold with archiving or "collecting" in mind, do you not? They were "consumables" with a mid-range life, and their boxes were just their boxes, mostly meant to just get them home without damage. The long-term possession of and reverence for, ah, cardboard is something we made up later.  

Of course we do.  But, clearly, some boxes survive better than others and we are kibitzing on the reasons why.   

Brendan

D500 hit the 'Nail on the Head' !!

If you don't like the conversation, don't join.

Brendan  

ajzend posted:

Brendan posted:

I have that issue with many MPC era boxes where the flaps apparently can only be open a few time before they separate.  Maybe the box supplier had a QA issue.

......I imagine that they could be made with structural integrity in mind.  But, I don't think that's much of a priority in a land of profits over quality.

Alan

 

It's also the land of not increasing prices to pay for non-essential packaging and driving off customers.  

Actually current packaging is quite good with the two part plastic shells in the box.  Some of the MPC cars were in a simple box the size of the car without even an insert to separate the cars from the sides of the box.  It does not do anyone good to have the items broken before they are sold.  The engine packing with the foam, plastic bag, and ribbons was a big improvement too.

If the concern is just protecting the trains the torn flaps are not so much an issue - if the box is rough enough there are plain aftermarket boxes.  If the box itself is part of the collection the condition is more of a concern.

I purchased a couple of Tyco HO sets from the 1960s.  The set boxes and individual boxes were very rough.  I found a forum focused on board games that has tips on repair of torn corners, peeling labels, warped covers and game boards, and removing price markings, etc.

I keep all my boxes, and for better or worse, I have more trains still in the box than not.  I have a couple of recently acquired postwar items with perfect boxes - so it is all about how the boxes were stored and handled.  One postwar item I have from my youth is a box of Lionel 971 Lichen - and one flap is torn off, and the box crushed!

I think it’s all about the way the items are stored and treated. (environment ,temperature, humidity and handling) Here’s a HO set that is 59 years old and the cellophane windows are tight as drums and the boxes are crisp.

I have many of these sets in my collection and the way they were stored and where ....i e moldy basement or hot attic or the top shelf in a forgotten closet in the main living area of the original owners home plays a part in the condition of the boxes.

Always a treat to see one of your sets, Bob.  That one's a dandy.

Hope you're doing well.

Andre

I like D500’s take on this myself. 
Alan

A 60 yr old cardboard box, really?  What did you expect?

Every time a discussion of boxes comes up, the thread is inundated by guys deriding the folks who value them and insisting the boxes should be tossed.

Look:  if you are not interested in a box discussion, just don't comment, OK?  Please?  Some of us do place value on them.  This thread is not about whether or not they should be tossed.  It is about preservation and conservation.

And remember, if you think your trains are valuable, just try to sell them to a golfer, a boater, or a stamp collector.

One major issue is the basic fact of cardboard manufacture - typical cardboard is not acid free which means no matter how careful you are with respect to storage you can expect it to self destruct over time.  Since acid free paper and cardboard command a premium with respect to pricing my guess would be that none of the cardboard used for any toy train shipping/storage is acid free.  Given that acid is present then the rate of degradation will be a function of the history of the storage of the item.  

What I have done in the past and will continue is ..  reuse any  brown cardboard box make (fold) a box for the insides of the bad box..  (it will look like a  insert.)

If  flap is off  just make all sides of the box you make. so you can slip the flap in between the original box and the new insert..

It will straighten up any crushed deformed boxes

You can either use  tape on the insides or  that gauze  type patch (medical  tape)

either way back on the shelf .. it will look pretty good..!....daniel