Classic Tinplate That Should Be Produced

I'm not that excited about the 20th century limited, A.K.A. Dr. Folb's train set.  You can already get the 400E in black with black boiler bands and the state cars are just a variation with cream trim.  I think the most exceptional thing about the set is the price it went for not the contents.  I'd like to see something that MTH/LCT hasn't done yet.  I'd love to see Ives freight cars, not the transition cars but true Ives freight cars.  I'd also like to see Dorfan freight cars, I love their lithography.  Speaking of lithography, I'd like to see some early American Flyer standard gauge lithographed trains, especially the blue president's special set, it's gorgeous.  One last thing that I'd love to have is the #9U that was cataloged in 2010 but cancelled, I was real disappointed that they didn't make it, it would have been real fun to build it with my son.  I guess we can always hope.

John. 

Liberty Lines 600e Hudson...

Overland flyer - that 600E looks great - I've never seen that before.  Was that made in O or Std gauge?  This is exactly the type of thing I've been looking for in O!! ( That or a scaled down version of the American flyer engine in the latest catalog)  If this is an O gauge engine I would love to get a modern one.  No need for fancy electronics, a whistle and a bell with copius amounts of smoke would be plenty.

You've shown me something I would love to dive into tinplate for!  Always learning something knew on the forum.

JZ

having garnered very little information on these locomotives, the 600e was an "extended" 400e (standard gauge) made by, i believe his name was Harlan Creswell (Seattle).  apparently about 100 of these were built.  why this picture credits Ed Harrington, i'm not sure.  i have seen one in a dark green livery which i think looks even better.

I think that Mr. Clifford has missed the point entirely about my 20th Century Set and it has nothing to do with reproducing it! To call the ONLY KNOWN MINT, SET BOXED 20th CENTURY set nothing special is like saying that that a Van Gogh is nothing special because there are others out there! It is pure ignorance of Standard Gauge Lionel Trains to say that the only thing special about my set was the price, not the contents!! Does Mr. Clifford have ANY IDEA of what it means to have a BOXED 414 ILLINOIS CAR with IVORY WINDOW inserts in the box so marked?? Obviously not, and I would have to assume that his naïveté is due to the fact that his primary interest is "O" gauge, not high end Standard Gauge!! In reality, I think MTH has gone off the deep end in producing some of these ridiculously colored 400E sets: Green, Red, and the worst of all-PINK! They have got be be kidding. No serious collector in their right mind would want one of these. That being said, here are a couple of suggestions for some EXTRAORDINARY pieces they could produce. #1- A remake of the incredible Boucher Blue Comet set with twin motors and six drive wheels. #2- Produce a 400E Blue Comet Loco with the cream stripe on the side (extremely rare) and the Black 400E with the red stripe. #3-If they still are looking for 400E variations, then the Dark Blue Locomotive with the red stripe that was featured in the Chicago Merchandise Mart on the Lionel layout. Finally, and perhaps most intriguing, reproduce a 400E that only existed as an artists rendering on the cover of the 1931 Catalog: Bob Butterfield holding a red stripe Black 400E with the copper pump in the REAR of the locomotive! Now, that would be something to see!!

Martin

I'd like to see the Boucher & Voltamp lines reproduced. 

Here is a photo of my 9U KIT that Mr. Clifford was speaking about. This is the 1928 Version, where the motor had to be assembled. Apparently, it proved a bit daunting for most boys, so in 1929 they produced the kit with the motor already assembled. Both variations were sales disappointments, as you could buy the 9E (with automatic reverse) for the same price as the kit! I have included photos of the 1928 Kit, 1929 Kit, and the kit with my matching cars. BTW, U stood for "U-BUILD-IT"!

It would seem to me, a novice O gauge tinplater, that anything that MTH/Lionel now makes in tinplate is primarily for runners, not collectors.

I just bought an O-gauge pink tinplate Girls train set at York because I liked it and I felt that others who visit my layout would like it.  I have no plan to "collect" it, so I'm not concerned with the future value if I keep it in the box and never open it... not sure why I'd do that!

On the other hand, while at York, I took a ride to the TCA museum and was truly impressed with the real collectible tinplate displayed there.  If I was into collecting, I would look for old collectible tinplate, and not use the latest MTH/LCT catalog to select my acquisitions.

Just my $.02,

Ed

ps. I'll probably pre-order the McGuinness-theme New Haven tinplate set in the 2013 catalog... shame on me!

Dr. Folb, I did not intend to belittle your train set and hurt your feelings in the process.  I think you found insult where none was intended.  I recognize it for what it is, an incredibly rare set in exceptional condition.  I read with great interest about your set and greatly appreciated you sharing it's story with us as well as the many pictures you provided.  To say it is museum caliber doesn't do it justice.  I would like you to realize my comments were entirely aimed at the original poster's question about reproductions.  MTH could do a reproduction of the semi-famous "Dr. Folb 20th Century Limited" but I know it would be poo-pooed by colectors such as youself because it wouldn't be considered "real" and on the other hand it's historical significance would  be lost on the average reproduction buyer.  And we both know that 99.99% of the world's population wouldn't know the difference between the two or even care for that matter. 

As for your comments about me, well, I'm not primarily an O gauge collector, my collection, and I hate to call it that, is about 80%-90% standard gauge.  My tinplate trains are primarily reproductions but I have a few original sets as well as a growing list of other original individual pieces.  I know I'm not an expert with regard to standard gauge trains but I am constantly working on increasing my knowledge and at this point certainly would not consider myself ignorant or naive as you previously suggested.  I also don't share the elitist belief that some collectors hold that original's are inherently better than reproductions.  To me they both have their own positives and negatives but at the end of the day they are all just toys intended to be be played with and enjoyed. 

And to answer your question "Does Mr. Clifford have ANY IDEA of what it means to have a BOXED 414 ILLINOIS CAR with IVORY WINDOW inserts in the box so marked?", yes, it means you have a bunch of money and can afford to buy really expensive toys.  My opinion, you should enjoy your trains and not worry or get offended if others don't value or appreciate them as you do.  If someone doesn't appreciate my toys, my car, my house or whatever, who cares, as long as they make me happy that's all that mattes.  I do realize though that some people buy things to impress others and maybe they enjoy the status that they think it gives them.  For the record, I never made any judgement about you based on your train set but I think I can get an idea based on your attitude shown in your above post, but maybe/hopefully I'm wrong.

Take care,

John.

John,

No offense taken. Maybe the wording on your part could have been altered slightly. I just wanted people to realize just how rare and important this set is! BTW, it is not an elitist belief that originals are better than reproductions; they obviously are for many reasons. If nothing else, the quality of what is produced today in China pales by comparison to what was produced 80 years ago in the U.S.! I have worked on many Lionel motors in preparation for running them, and am always amazed at their precision and quality. That cannot easily be translated to the newer items.

Having the funds to buy some of these wonderful items has nothing to do with their virtue; they are extraordinary in their own right. I feel lucky to not only be able to afford them (I worked very hard for what I have), but to have the perception and sophistication acquired through years of study and observation to truly APPRECIATE something that not everyone does! Obviously, we each have different avenues of interest, and that is the way it should be!

Dr. Folb, I concede that my initial post could have been worded better.  I initially said "I'm not that excited about the 20th century limited, A.K.A Dr. Folb's train set."  That wasn't accurate, I was and still am impressed by that set, it is amazing.  I should have said that I wouldn't be that excited about a reproduction of the set and that would be for various reasons, one of which is that a reproduction almost certainly would not do the original justice.

Regards,

John.

Thanks John,

That was well worded! I should add that on the set box and the shipping carton there was a manifest of other items that Howard Bendixen ordered with the train. Very slowly, I have been acquiring these pieces. All are new, in the original boxes, and have the YARA TOBACCO label on them. Eventually, I will be able to display the entire, original package. It is breathtaking!

MTH announced a tinplate standard gauge 2-6-6-2 once upon a time, it went over like a lead balloon and was cancelled.

Rusty

yeah, i do remember that one.  MTH with their 'bigger is better' philosophy, i'm surprised they didn't go for a triplex.

small locomotives such as American's, Mogul's, Ten Wheeler's and Atlantic's would look great in tinplate, yet 2-4-0, 2-4-2 and the godawful 4-4-4 wheel arrangements predominate the prewar era, and hence the reproduction market.

it doesn't have to be a prototype, ...just a type.

Rusty, the MTH 400 AE was just too ungainly to be a success.  It missed on all accounts.

400 AE

There is some real merit in this thinking of representing smaller "actual" wheel arrangements.... but it is likely to never be. Folks just want "bigger"  which means "better" I guess.  SMT's modeling of American Type locos are wonderful (and shows how small they really are) and it would be fun to see them interpreted in Standard Gauge along the lines of #6 or #7 locos from Lionel or the 467x series from Flyer, even the early Ives 1132 styles.

Once again I request a McKeen motor car and trailer in tinplate standard gauge and O gauge. How about reproductions of reproductions, specially the Voltamp trolley that Pride Lines produced, the many wheeled Milwaukee bipolar electric by RichArt, or a GG-1 that was produced in standard gauge, whose makers name escapes me?

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA 

Me too!

For the one hundredth time.........I want a CNJ standard gauge Camelback. 

Unfortunately I don't see MTH spending any money on new tooling to produce things such as the Boucher or the 600E. I have both originals and reproductions and will continue to pass on the new MTH stuff as I don't collect "color" variations. I was able to obtain the two sets produced by Lionel (Hiawatha and Commodore Vanderbilt during their blow out period) and feel they had done a wonderful job on these pieces but they were initially not accepted by the Standard Gauge market. It is time for something new or a reproduction of something that has not already been reproduced ad nauseam.

Would I buy a Boucher Blue Comet - absolutely

Would I buy a 600e - absolutely

Did I buy a super 381 when MTH produced it  - absolutely

Will I buy a pink 400e - not

I had originally been excited about the #6, but when I saw it in person, it left me cold. However, I would like to see a #5, no tender.   Sorry guys, but the 600e would fall under the way-too-big-for-my-layout Brute category, I wouldn't be interested, but it is cool looking.   McKeen, yes, Boucher yes, but I'm not really interested in actual road names on any tinplate, or variations of the red comet painted in Cadillac or General Motors colors.  Camelback would be interesting, but it would need to be "toythentic", or it may just end up looking like a G gauge counterpart.  It would have to be high gloss blue and cream!

I think it was in a book authored by Hertz where someone had "kitbashed" a 260E into a very nice tinplate 2-8-0 consolidated.  It would be interesting to know how much effort it would take for MTH to do something similar since (based on my memory of the picture) it would seem they could use a number of the already existing reproduction 260E parts.