Comparing the new MTH and new Williams 44 ton diesels

I ordered the MTH 44 Tonner in the Western Maryland livery.

I am hoping to use the 44 Tonner for switching fun in my yard, the slow speed of DCS, and the Protocouplers will be valuable.

Plus, on the Williams prototype I examined at York I noted seemingly flimsy plastic hand rails which seemed fragile..the MTH loco has metal handrails.

 Good comments. Need more comparisons once these models are delivered to customers.

The plastic handrails would probably be more suitable on the HO or N scale models.

Maybe comparisons should wait until they’re actually produced. 

Depends on what you like but I would go with the MTH 44 ton diesel. With MTH you get DCS or PS-3, smoke and able to upgrade to Kadee couplers. The MTH unit costs more but I think it is worth it.

With Williams you won't have a smoke unit or scale coupler mounts, and it is only conventional. Which means you would have to upgrade it to DCS or Legacy or TMCC to be able to use command control with it. WBB may not cost as much but you don't get as many features.

Lee Fritz

So do I.  And if it runs as sweetly as the recent RK NW-2, then it is a jewel. 

Neither of these have been released into the market. I am still waiting for WBB. The initial release was for Oct... Then Dec... Now????

MTh could be delayed as well. Unfortunately, I did NOT see the WBB prototype other than pics on this forum. I thought the handrails were metal?

$50 MSRP to get DCS control makes MTH the better buy.

Inasmuch as i run TMCC only, the Williams one is a better value to me; otherwise i end up paying for something (DCS) i get rid of anyway prior to converting. Will be ordering 2 PRR units as soon as one of my favorite dealers can give me a firm price.

jackson

I bet, if you extracted the PS3 carefully, it would fetch enough to pay for the difference, and then some, if the MTH looks better. Just a thought.

I think the MTh is the much better value, and I run only conventionally.  But the additional cost of PS3 or Legacy is easily justifiable to me based on: a) the much better sound, b) the much better running at low speeds: the cruise and all of Premier (or Legacy) just makes it so much better at low speeds, c) smoke.  

Lee:

Better Sound -- Agree, but not that important as i usually turn it to a very low volume.

Smoke -- won't have it in the house - burns my eyes and nose - hence a non starter for me.

Cruise -- Won't have it as i like to control my engines from the throttle (red wheel) -- hence another non starter for me.

Marty R:

PS3 extraction -- an option as i've done numerous PS2 extractions but finding a customer who won't ruin it on re-installation and then claiming the part was defective is not easy. Been there done that with PS2 and PS1. The same reason that as an ERR dealer i will not resell their products to end users who want to do their own installations. Too many ham-fisted would be installers out there who don't Know AC from DC or positive from negative or what a cold solder joint is. I only do installations for customers.

jackson

Pictures of the Bachman model show only two rollers. Short locos with only two rollers usually don't make reliable switchers. The MTH likely will have four rollers.

Allan

Wow - don't like cruise?  You can turn it off (even if you run conventionally), but it is so good on a big layout.  My trains go up and down nearly a foot over the course of one trek around the mainline, and I like cruise for that.  Great feature.  Plus, when a loco has it installed, whether PS or Legacy, I notice they run better at low speeds.  

Bingo! 

I wonder if George B. has ever given thought to publishing a 'test track' review of two new releases of the same engine....before they're ever reality? 

Hey, in this day and age of diaphanous journalistic hyperbole, y knot? 

Of course, the composition of retractions can be interesting, too!  Oh, wait, that never happens.  Credibility and balance?....who needs it.  Will it sell in Peoria?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Rich Yoder GE 44tonner with an ERR upgrade, sound, and fabricated electro-couplers, using parts of Atlas articulated three rail couplers. Requires the uses of a shoe horn to get all in a very small package.     Click on the triangle to access a switching video. Fort Pitt HiRailer's Turntable and "Y" module with Ross 204 3 way switches, DZ 1000 switch machines.  Video was of testing non-de-rail function of the switch wiring.  Switches are controlled with DZ 1002 push buttons and a Cab 1 via a Lionel SC-2 controller mounted under the module.

Makes sense. I didn't realize you were a service person. If you go the MTH route, I'd be willing to take it with a signed email that i accept the same warranty MTH would give me. Nothing Nada Nix, squat bupkis. But I have sold and bought enough to totally get it. And of course you don't want to give deals to your fellow reputable service folks on this site.

Why so for the conventional operator????

Seems everyone that runs DCS or TMCC (whatever the Lionel is) thinks EVERYONE runs it.

Never have...never will.

The 44 tonner does not fit with my plans. But if another loco comes from WbB and one of the other two....$50 (more at street price) will make a difference.

Dave, I have both Williams and MTH, and my experience is that MTH has been somewhat better quality.  I of course have no way of knowing what will be the situation regarding the 44-tonner.  It may well be that both brands come off the same Chinese fabrication line.

While I only operate a few ancient Lionel locos conventionally, and that very rarely, it is my understanding that some of the features provided by DCS can be accessed in the conventional mode. 

Never say never.  The ability to operate 2 or more locos near each other, on the same track, with full control of each, can be very attractive.

When I came to O 3r after being in HO for.....a long time.....I changed because of MTH. A RK N&W J 611 converted me. And I only bought MTH for a while. But I never had an interest in command control. I was a Senior Systems Analyst for many years and want my layout to be void of any 'system' I need to trouble shoot.

I find the Williams and WbB locos to be bullet proof when compared to command equipped locos. I have had a number of PS1 locos go brain dead.....being brought back to life with a WbB DCRU or a Dallee unit. Yet to have a WbB or Dallee failure. I know a number of MTH in storage right now will be DOA when the layout is finished and I pull them out.....just a given.

That's what is great about this hobby.....everyone can CHOOSE how he or she participates.

Dave, I agree with your last line, and I understand you're wanting to avoid trouble-shooting.

By the way, I assume the MTH in storage is also PS1, and I assume you've read the posts over the years that say before starting a long-stored PS1, have a charged battery so as not to befuddle the chip.  I can't speak from personal knowledge, as I never had PS1.  Before getting DCS, I only wanted whistle and no other sound, so my old MTH/Weaver/Wms locos were all QSI DCRUs; now all PS2.

One of the unique properties of a Command system is that it simplifies wiring.

There's a statement that ought to draw fire.  

Example:  A turntable with a house and (6) or more spur tracks would take some interesting off/on switching in conventional mode. Some cases a rotary switch is/was used.  They, (the engines), just sit there, in command mode, with there lights on, ready to go. One circuit with no special wiring seems to handle it all.    Once communications are established, move out.   

Mike CT, can't say that I agree with your example, in the real world.  My turntable tracks are set up just as they'd be for conventional:  each adjoining track, and the tablke itself, have their own toggle.  I can turn them all on if I wish to top off batteries, but my leaving the switches off, I don't have locos going nuts if somewhere on the circuit there is a sparky derailment.

All: I feel quite certain that the MTH 44-ton will not have smoke, notwithstanding the reference on the MTH product page.  If you're going to order one expecting smoke, you ought to verify what it does or doesn't have before plunking down your $$.

As long as it works for you, that's all that matters.  

Best wishes with your layout.

 Mike CT

That, Mike, is the key to operating a layout.  The gurus may say you should do it this way or that way, but whatever works, is adequate.

MTH states that the 44 ton engine has a "diecast" body.  This added weight would seem to add to better traction and low speed performance.

That is news to me. Did MTH change something? All my PS2s you can only disable the cruise by the transformer pulses. Once it is shut off in conventional,you have to take it off again. This is a problem for me because PS2 locos start at 8 volts while my other locos start around 5 volts. Since my layout is automated,if I apply 5 volts it confuses the board. So I have to run all my PS2s on a separate loop and apply 8 volts as the first speed step. I use BCRs. I wish they had a switch on the bottom to disable the cruise feature. 

I would wait on the Williams. They usually go cheaper at end of year clearance

Dale H

It would seem to me that if you use the 44 tonner as intended, a yard switcher, command control couplers would be the deal maker.

They are pretty cheap now.  You might want to shop around and pick one up soon.  got my most recent for less than $225.  I was surprised given the comments by WBB at York that they are their best seller and may all be gone soon.  At that price, I bought the most recent to butcher: it occurred to me that the sound is that of a small (for a loco) diesel and that all the boards would fit into the trailer of a 'Streets tractor-trailer, so I'm building a new big rig that way.  With the cost of the diecast truck ('48 Peterbilt) included the whole thing will cost about $275.  But a big rig with sound?  Yeah, it will be worth it if it works, and I'll learn something useful if it doesn't.

Was at York Thursday & yesterday.  Here is a shot I took yesterday of a nicely-weathered 44-ton.  Nice, but I think I'll wait for the DCS version

That's why I added electrocouplers to mine.

Yes, I know the owner.  I have taken each of my grandchildren to ride on the WSRR as a reward for being housebroken, and the crew has always treated us well.

The WSRR's Davenports and the WSRR's EMD attempted competition to the 44-tonner are very unique counterparts to the 44-ton.

Interesting that from the frame down it appears black while the body appears to be faded green (DGLE aka Brunswick green?). This combination will make repainting the WBB one (all black) to green. Any color photos i have of the PRR 44 tonners show them to be dark green (from the frame up).

Thanks for the photos.

jackson

The owner has been repainting the other loco and apparently has done some research into proper colors

Kurt is right. When both the MTH and Williams can be compared side-by-side and up close and personal, I'll see if George Brown is interested in reviewing/comparing the two (a review of the WBB version is already scheduled for publication). If GB doesn't care to do it, I will.

Lee, I'd love to know where you got one for $225. Thanks

Chris

Pat's trains.

Three rung steps were an option on the prototype.

I believe the two access doors on the skirt are found only on one side.  Checking prototype photos would confirm.

Plenty of prototype info on the internet and in magazines to check with the two models.