Comparison of Sunset 3rd Rail vs. Key Models - Illinois Central E8/E9

Not sure what to say.  These are examples of different segments of our hobby.  They are not aimed at the same purchasers.  Both importers are offering good value for the bucks.

On the Key, the grabs above the windshield look like they were formed by someone who was drinking. Apart from that they both look pretty decent.

Simon

Every time these kind of comparisons come up with 3rd Rail Sunset vs ?????, I will defend Scott and Sunset to

the end for overall "betterment of the hobby", very few models from anyone are 100% correct, but most represent

very well, the models that Scott and Sunset produce for O scale at the price point they do vs brass is such a huge

benefit to the hobby, I have about 30 Sunset models and 30 high end brass models, if they run good, sound good,

and they are lighted, I am a very satisfied customer, I think Key and others do a very good job too, but Sunset and

Golden Gate offer alot of great models for a more affordable O scale solution. ncng

I think the small detail differences would occur on the real locomotives as they are shopped and repainted over time. The differences are not significant. I can afford the Key model, but would buy the 3rd rail.

Frank McCabe posted:

 The shape of the orange stripe over the nose is better on the Key

model and the nose door dimensions and shape is better.  The pilot is correctly painted black on the Key

model, but the SS model is brown, which is not correct, but easy to fix.  Also, to my eyes, the nose shape

and profile look better on the Key unit but too rounded on the SS.   

So what does the Sunset model do better?   The LED lights are more prototypical (although the lower

headlights should be horizontal, not vertical).  The nose door grab irons are correctly painted brown

rather than orange on the Key unit

It appears that the orange curve and headlight more or less follow Iowa Pacific's recreation of an IC E8:

I like them both I would be happy with either one!

 Scott and Dave these 2 guys makes us some nice stuff, these are the best days in o Scale. Thanks to both of you. 

As has been brought up, both of these are nice and each has its pluses and minuses… welcome to model railroading where everything is a compromise…

In this case, I do like the orange “swoosh” of the Key better, but only up to the headlight. After the headlight, starting to curve back toward the windshield, the Sunset has a much better tail. Since we view models from a usual high perspective, its pretty clear that the tail/point/ending is correct on the Sunset.

If I had not seen the two units side by side, I probably would have said that both colors are correct, but viewing them in this manner, It does look like the Sunset is a bit warm, not much, compared to the Key. Which is correct, I’m not sure, but this is a good reason to buy passenger equipment from the same manufacture of the engine… just to bet paint match.

I also think the number boards are better represented on the Key in terms of style, Shape and font. I don’t know what the numerical equivalent to font is for numeral so I will just use the word font.

The Green Diamond decal is a bit finer on the Key also.

With all that said, It does look like small details are getting much more expensive. Meaning, to get a small advantage or detail part correct, the price paid is considerate. The Sunset looks like a very nice compromise in terms of price and delivery.

Frank, what I would really like to see is what you are pulling with these engines? All the manufactures have produced or cataloged IC engines, but what passenger equipment is on the market to run with the engines? This is true for a few other road names as well for me.

Thanks for taking the time to post Frank and have a great day.

Charlie

Charlie posted:

As has been brought up, both of these are nice and each has its pluses and minuses… welcome to model railroading where everything is a compromise…

In this case, I do like the orange “swoosh” of the Key better, but only up to the headlight. After the headlight, starting to curve back toward the windshield, the Sunset has a much better tail. Since we view models from a usual high perspective, its pretty clear that the tail/point/ending is correct on the Sunset.

If I had not seen the two units side by side, I probably would have said that both colors are correct, but viewing them in this manner, It does look like the Sunset is a bit warm, not much, compared to the Key. Which is correct, I’m not sure, but this is a good reason to buy passenger equipment from the same manufacture of the engine… just to bet paint match.

I also think the number boards are better represented on the Key in terms of style, Shape and font. I don’t know what the numerical equivalent to font is for numeral so I will just use the word font.

The Green Diamond decal is a bit finer on the Key also.

With all that said, It does look like small details are getting much more expensive. Meaning, to get a small advantage or detail part correct, the price paid is considerate. The Sunset looks like a very nice compromise in terms of price and delivery.

Frank, what I would really like to see is what you are pulling with these engines? All the manufactures have produced or cataloged IC engines, but what passenger equipment is on the market to run with the engines? This is true for a few other road names as well for me.

Thanks for taking the time to post Frank and have a great day.

 

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

You are correct that scale length passenger cars in Illinois Central orange and brown colors are pretty rare.  The Rockford O Scalers have been lucky to assemble a train of about 12 cars over the years from various sources and they are primarily old Walthers, Boxcar Ken, or custom built cars that have been painted IC.  Some of the cars are prototypically correct and others not.  It is also interesting to note the variation in the paint colors for the cars, depending on who painted them, a similar issue as previously discussed with the locomotive models.  However, the cars run well and look great behind our Sunset 3rd Rail or Key A-B-A sets of E8/E9s.  I grew up in the south suburbs of Chicago near the IC main line, so this train is one of my favorites and one you don't see very often in 2 rail O Scale.  

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your comments regarding this forum topic, with which I mostly agree.  One of the interesting things about 2 Rail O Scale is working with various model builders/importers to create models that have either not been available previously or released on a limited basis in the brass market.  We very much appreciate that Sunset 3rd Rail has offered their E8/E9s in Illinois Central and Central of Georgia colors so that the expensive brass models are not the only alternatives.  Regarding the comment on passenger cars, some years ago, Sunset/Golden Gate offered their heavyweight Harriman cars in Illinois Central dark green, but not in the orange and brown scheme.  However, a few of these green cars can help fill out an IC train.  Also, MTH has done a nice looking set of brown and orange IC cars, but unfortunately these are 70ft rather than scale length.

Regards,

Frank McCabe

Simon Winter posted:

On the Key, the grabs above the windshield look like they were formed by someone who was drinking. Apart from that they both look pretty decent.

Simon

I believe these grabs got bent when the model was removed from the box and did not come this way from the factory.

Rusty Traque posted:

Frank McCabe posted:

 The shape of the orange stripe over the nose is better on the Key

model and the nose door dimensions and shape is better.  The pilot is correctly painted black on the Key

model, but the SS model is brown, which is not correct, but easy to fix.  Also, to my eyes, the nose shape

and profile look better on the Key unit but too rounded on the SS.   

So what does the Sunset model do better?   The LED lights are more prototypical (although the lower

headlights should be horizontal, not vertical).  The nose door grab irons are correctly painted brown

rather than orange on the Key unit

It appears that the orange curve and headlight more or less follow Iowa Pacific's recreation of an IC E8:

Hi Rusty,

I agree that is probably how the Sunset model came to be painted this way.  In looking at photos of the prototypes in service, it is apparent that the orange field and yellow nose striping is not always exactly the same.  This is noticeable when observing at what point the yellow striping intersects the nose door grab irons.  On some units the stripes intersect at the very top of the grabs (thus making a wider orange field) and on others they intersect more towards the middle of the grabs, as on the Iowa Pacific unit, and therefore the orange field is narrower going up the nose.  Also, on the prototype units, the nose grabs can be either painted orange or brown, but brown seems to be more prevalent.  However, on every picture I have seen,  the pilots on the IC E units are black to match the trucks and fuel tanks.  Our Sunset units will receive their black pilots shortly! 

Frank McCabe posted:

It is interesting to compare the subject units.  A high end brass model (by Key) vs. a DCC capable plastic

model (by Sunset 3rd Rail).

Road number 4038 is the Key model which, in my opinion, has better paint colors and small road specific

details (hoods over the class lights for example).  To me, the brown color looks about right on the Key

model but is too light on the SS model.  The shape of the orange stripe over the nose is better on the Key

model and the nose door dimensions and shape is better.  The pilot is correctly painted black on the Key

model, but the SS model is brown, which is not correct, but easy to fix.  Also, to my eyes, the nose shape

and profile look better on the Key unit but too rounded on the SS.   

So what does the Sunset model do better?   The LED lights are more prototypical (although the lower

headlights should be horizontal, not vertical).  The nose door grab irons are correctly painted brown

rather than orange on the Key unit  The Sunset unit runs on both DC and DCC, has sound and a higher

top speed.  Oh, and perhaps most important, you could buy almost 3 Sunset units for the list price of

one Key unit when they came out a few years ago!

We have an A-B-A set of the Sunset units on the Rockford O Scalers layout (as well as an A-B-A set of Keys)

and when looking at these plastic models by themselves the noted shortcomings are not very noticeable

and they run beautifully.  Therefore, overall, I think that Sunset has done a very fine job with their new

E8/E9 release.  Comments?

The head lights totally suck on the KEY unit , a turned aluminum feral or a light casting with a properly fitted bulb arrangement and a flat cover (glass )  is required for an accurate look, not an MV Lens with ahole drilled in it , such a poor job looks stupid .

Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

The head lights totally suck on the KEY unit , a turned aluminum feral or a light casting with a properly fitted bulb arrangement and a flat cover (glass )  is required for an accurate look, not an MV Lens with ahole drilled in it , such a poor job looks stupid .

Looks very good to me. Much better than those twin beam lights!

Shows just how close Scott and Co. are getting to being equal to brass import detailing and for a fraction of the price. When you figure they come with lights, DCC and sound, the scales even tip more in their favor. These E-8/9's are the nicest diesel locomotives 3dR has imported IMHO and have only a few minor detail issues, while conveying the feeling and look of the prototype excellently.  I've very happy with my set. 

Depending on the year of operation, headlights changed drastically.

BH

Sunset diesels keep getting better. Both manufacturers offer great products within their market. I love them for different reasons. Right now I have more pre-orders from Sunset than from Key, Scott just keeps offering stuff that I love. The Rocket TA, E5's and RG L-105.Key did two of those and they are wonderful. The TA will be done in brass body, which is great. Good times.

Something to consider is that Sunset is able to deliver within a fraction of the time it takes for high end brass importers... whether this is  good or bad is relative to individual consumers.

I believe that is good for many, many reasons. Might be a pita for the brass diesel guys, but certainly not for the customer who buys these models from Scott.  I've always been amazed at how prolific 3rd Rail is. 

BH

Hi All

In response to a question, I posted some pictures of our IC passenger cars as an attachment in one of my responses above, in case you missed them.  Attached here (hopefully!) is a video of those cars being pulled by an A-B set of our Key IC E8s.

I will also try and post a video of our Sunset 3rd Rail E8s pulling the train shortly.

Regards,

Frank

Looks great Frank, thanks for sharing. The consists looks fine to me. 

Charlie

Looks good.  T of T looks good too in the background. 

Lovely train.  Living in the St. Louis area during the 50's, that paint scheme has always been a winner to me. 

BH

Frank what a beautiful train. What decoders did you use on your Key e units? I’ve bought Loksound ESU for my ATSF PA’s and by a friend’s recommendation Tang Band speakers. The Sunsets I own all have the factory installed QSI’s. I like them both. I love my SD9’s. Thank you Scott for producing the stuff you do.  

Frank - Exquisite locomotives, train and capped off with an open end obs. Totally cool !!

What event brought something like a quarter million dollars worth of die cast autos to town ? !!      Great collection of vehicles.

Frank, thanks  a bunch for the very interesting written comparison, photos and video.  I feel we are very fortunate to have these types of choices and price points in O scale thanks to both companies mentioned and to the others like Atlas O.     Also the sub-topic of many choices for 0 scale decoders.  Best of times ever in O scale?  Methinks yes.

The IC Key units are just DC.  I have four Loksound decoders on order (and I already have the Tang Band speakers).  Two of the decoders are going into a set of Key CB&Q E units.  If that goes well, maybe the other two will go into the IC units... (I owe Frank big time because of an unfortunate event a couple of weeks ago). 

Nice John!

I am slowly converting all my locomotive fleet to DCC.

I have no argument in this thread at all, I am very pleased with both brands. I have 4 ATSF warbonnet F's awaiting at Sunset and a fleet of Sunset units and Key's as well did I mention OMI, PSC, PFM Fujiyama, Sofue, US Hobbies, Max Gray, Atlas, Oriental... hay, I like a quality model regardless of medium of build or brand and it varies from project to project. Hybrid, brass sheet, Cast ingot all the same as long as it's correct as possible. I still dream of Exactrail in o Scale. 

Beautiful passenger cars.  What is "Exactrail"?

Bob,

https://exactrail.com

mark s posted:

Frank - Exquisite locomotives, train and capped off with an open end obs. Totally cool !!

What event brought something like a quarter million dollars worth of die cast autos to town ? !!      Great collection of vehicles.

Hi Mark,

So my interest in cars stems from a young age.  The first picture below is me standing next to our family's '53 Studebaker.  That suggested to me that we needed a 1/43 scale model of it on the layout.  So that led to the idea of a Studebaker Dealership and the rest is history so to speak!

Frank 

Frank McCabe posted:

Hi All

In response to a question, I posted some pictures of our IC passenger cars as an attachment in one of my responses above, in case you missed them.  Attached here (hopefully!) is a video of those cars being pulled by an A-B set of our Key IC E8s.

I will also try and post a video of our Sunset 3rd Rail E8s pulling the train shortly.

Regards,

 

Frank

 

Hi All,

As I mentioned above, here is a video of the A-B-A set of Sunset 3rd Rail E8s pulling our IC train on the Rockford O Scaler's layout.  The units run great with all wheel pickup, sound in DC as well as DCC, and about a 65 MPH scale top speed (as measured by our electronic speedometer).  This, of course, is a far cry from the prototype's ability to run over 100 mph, but fast enough for a model railroad.  I also wanted to mention that we have three additional IC orange and brown head end cars as well as a few of the GGD Harriman cars in dark green.  These three powered units would absolutely have no trouble pulling as many cars as we wanted to put behind them.  There is one minor operational oddity that we noticed which is that the classification lights light up (white), but only when an A unit is operating in reverse and not going forward.  So the trailing Central of Georgia unit in the video has the class lights illuminated and the lead Illinois Central A unit does not.  Have others noted the same thing?

Regards, Frank

That’s AWESOME Frank! You made my evening! 

Mine too, Frank.

What a lovely layout!