Converting Atlas 3-rail Track to 2-Rail

Two rail track and associated equipment tend to have a larger radius.

O72 three rail, 72" diameter curve.

O72 two rail 144" diameter.

Hi Mike, Thanx for responding.  Yes, having built several O Gauge 3-Rail and O-Scale 2-Rail layouts, I am aware of the typical radius differences between 2 and 3 rail.  But I intend to run mostly 3-rail engines and cars on this modified track, so I do not expect radius problems.  Also, my O-Scale 2-rail engines and cars seem to track well on this very hi-profile track, so the only problem that I anticipate is running my larger 2-rail engines thru 0-72 converted 3-rail to 2-rail switches, which may lead to problems.  If so, I will run a loop of Atlas 2-rail dedicated to these larger 2-rail engines.  BTW, the older I get, the more I just like to see trains run, so I try to keep the number of turnouts to a minimum.    I just wondered whether anyone out there who runs both 2-rail and 3-rail equipment as I do has ever tried this.  Again, Mike, thanx for getting back to me.

And here we go again, someone egging me on to try BlueRail. No more TMCC, Legacy, DCS.

I could try by taking  a locomotive that nobody wants to buy and try it out. It might even make four axle engines reliable.

No more dealing with center rollers causing unforeseen electrical shorts, yet be able to keep all my existing engines, rolling stock, track. The transition could be gradual. Not sure what I would do with lit passenger cars. But at least I could apply 18Vac to the track and use them.

Why not try a one foot section and report back?  You are at the cutting edge of the future of 3 rail scale (High Rail?).

I went into Aurora Rails years back looking to start in 2 rail. Ron asked me why. After I told him he suggested just buying the 3 rail Atlas track and removing the middle. I thought it was crazy at the time. He's gone now so we can't ask him for his experience doing it.

If you already have the track, that wouldn't be so crazy. The rails are thick and strong anyways. It wouldn't be a museum level layout doing it that way. It would get you going and the price is right.

I'd have to ask why you just don't leave the track as is and run it as 2 rail? That way you could run both.

I do believe the switches may be a problem area. Are the outside rails connected together electrically? That doesn't matter here right?

Removing the center rail from Atlas track isn't as simple as it sounds. The rails are in there pretty snug. It can be done. If you're starting from scratch or doing a major realignment, you might want to consider using Atlas 2-rail track which was less expensive than the 3-rail last time I checked.

Removing the third rail from Atlas flex track is very easy.  I have used this converted track with good results.

There should no problem mechanically.   And since you are thinking/planning battery, no electical connections to/through track, there should be no problem there.

I think the issue would be appearance.    The ties will not look right even when ballasted.    Also, doing it the way you describe sounds very tedious if much track is involved.     It might be worth trying to sell it and getting new 2 rail track.    the atlas 3 rail is probably worth something  used.

Guys, I wrote a rather lengthy response to your multiple comments...and it vaporized into Hyperspace before I could hit the 'Post Reply" button!  So here goes again, but more cryptic:  1) I also have plenty of ATLAS 2-rail O-Scale track, but it will not accommodate 3-rail wheel flanges, esp thru the turnout frogs.  2) I have found that locking onto the ATLAS third rail with a linesman's pliers, and wiggling it back & forth a few times, the middle rail detaches itself quite easily, even from curve sections and turnouts.

I have a confession to make, well sort of:  I'm old (78), and, while I am thoroughly electronics trained and can readily handle the numerous technical headaches associated with DCC, DCS, TMCC and so forth, I think the hobby has become a tad over-sophisticated electronically (maybe even 2-3 tads), and so in my old age I am opting to revert back to running trains the old fashion way, or these days at least the closest thing to it, that is, with battery powered engines, controlled by a Blue Rail hand-held...which happens to be my old I-Phone.

BTW, Mike, this is NOT a pitch for you to try Blue Rail; frankly, I do not give a rip if anybody follows me down this 3-rail to 2-rail slippery slope; I just think, for me, running my O & S (and maybe even HO) trains round my several complicated loops (OK, Matt, from Point A to Point A...I love it!), is the way to go without me having to spend half my train time trying to deal with mastering the numerous DCC, DCS, TMCC, and Legacy operating and programming foibles.  At my age, life's way too short to have to deal with this stuff.  After all, I love trains first and foremost!  Electronics?  Maybe once a close second...but not any more.

One last thought: Bob2, if you think this trans-gendering of O-Scale track is on the cutting edge, you might just love my other idea...that of building my last layout totally without using a stick of wood!  Because I detest the way the wood industry is gouging us unmercifully with their unsubstantiated gross cost increases for 2x4's and he like, I have vowed to use only non-wood materials to build my last (multi-scale) layout.  For that reason, I have chosen 3/4" white PVC pipe, using 3/4" PVC multi-port furniture fittings to take the place of the normal wood construction I have heretofore always used.  BTW, colored (red, black, blue, green, and yellow) 3/4" PVC pipe and fittings are also available, but way too expensive!

I'm also using various thicknesses of 4' x 8' foamboard, from 1/2" to 1.5" thick, each layer housing only one scale of track.  Given the wood industry's greediness, I do not care what it costs, but certainly it will be cheaper than wood at today's prices.  BTW, I have already built a 6' PVC spiral helix, just to prove that this is indeed a workable concept.  Also, the closest thing to actual wood I am using is Masonite, for the 7" apron.  (Tucked underneath that is a black curtain, which will essentially hide all the PVC layout construction pipe.)

Sorry to bore most of you folks with my layout ramblings.  But for those whose creative juices resonate with these radical layout design details, I hope these words give you food for thought.  Happy railroading!

  So it was your idea, not mine!  Thanx for paving the way, SWRR!  JP  (Sorry, I don't how to locate your name.)

The scale 3-rail guys  often envision their track without a center rail, but the question is what to use to transmit that power that runs down the center rail. If you try to use a studrail, roller pickups won't work. And most 3-rail guys would prefer to run on 3 rail track vs. adding slider shoes to their rollers.

I think I could live with a center rail that is just 1/16" above the ties- it would be alot less obvious than the typical blackened center rail and work with pick up rollers. With the track is ballasted and rail weathered, I think it would pretty good. I know Lionel did it before with Super O- Atlas 3 rail's design lends itself to be modified to take a low profile center tail.

Geno

We go over that from time to time.  2-rail power has been perfected, so the only reason (other than cost to convert) to retain the center rail is nostalgia.  If you like the looks of 3-rail track, keep it.  Otherwise, convert to 2-rail or RC/battery.

There was a guy who made beautiful stud rail - you almost couldn't tell.  After all his efforts (we applauded them) he realized that 2-rail was way, way easier!

Since he is going to keep his 2-rail equipment he'll have to keep the 3-rail track because of the wheel flanges.  The Code 172 rail is high enough that the flanges will not hit the ties, etc.  Also, the depth and width of the 3-rail switch frogs will allow wheels to pass through without a problem.

Jan

There will be a rectangular hole in the 3 rail tie where the rail and molded in tie plate have been removed.

You will have to bury the tie almost completely in ballast, or go back and fill in the holes with some sort of caulking and spray everything with flat, dark weathering.

Here is an Atlas tie I shaved down to remove the molded in tie plates to act as a filler to slide under a rail joint.

Jim

Bob- I actually contacted Hugo the Dane 15+ years ago. He went over how he had his studrail made, sent me many pics, and I even bought his last supply of unused studrail. I was also buying code 148 Atlas O track and switches. What stopped me from going ahead with 2 rail studrail was my inability to find a fabrication shop able to replicate the studrail. Fast forward to 2019, and my VL Challenger's flanges were indeed contacting the ties on Atlas Code 148 2-rail track- so running 3 rail trains on 2-rail track is a no go. And, as many have found, 2-rail trains run reasonably well on Atlas 3 rail track. I also have quite a few 2-rail cars, so I would like to run them too.

Jim Policastro- I am okay with filling the center of the tie with bondo, modeler's putty, or whatever works, and painting it with an airbrush. After it dries. I will cut the slot for the center rail with my multitool, and fab up some type of jig to keep the cut depth consistent. I will hit up a few metal shops to see if I can buy a coil of 14-16 stainless sheetmetal that is the right height, about 3/16- 1/4" tall. If I can't find it or have it cut down, I will forget about it. But obviously I will make a prototype section of track to see how the finished product will look first.

Geno

Guys, I am happy that this project has generated so much interest, but I must tell you that I have been in this man's hobby for many, many years (78 - ~5 = 73, ...give or take a few years for college and then the Air Force (w/ a year in Vietnam...btw, I'm a 100% disabled vet)...so this isn't my first rodeo.  In fact, when I was a bit younger, I kept seven G scale restaurant & supermarket layouts running in the Greenville-Spartanburg, SC area. My point: I have pretty much thought of everything you gentlemen have brought to my attention in your fine comments over the last few days.  If you recall my first blurb, I was merely asking if any other brave soul had gone down this path ahead of me...because I wanted to learn whether there was a major show-stopper ahead for me that I had not already considered.   So far, Nope!

Please don't misunderstand me:  I am very grateful for all the kindness and attention you have shown me as we debate the merits and pitfalls of this radical conversion concept.  But, judging by your expressions, I am beginning to think that at least some of you believe me to be a model railroad Newbie...which I certainly am not.

To prove the point, a couple of years ago I asked for help in getting my Lionel Rotating Car Dumper to operate.  Seems I was taken on eBay, where I purchased, it supposedly NIB...and when received, I set it aside for a much later install.  Well, you can guess what happened... when I finally got to it, this very elegant and pricey accessory did not work.  And, since Lionel provided no help whatsoever with either repair notes or at least circuit diagrams, I was on my own...and asked for help from you folks on our O Gauge Forum. 

Sadly, nobody had any repair experience with this high-tech critter.  What I was told by many folks was that this accessory was a delight to watch, but when it quit, you may as well set it on a shelf...and let it collect dust.  Why? Because it simply was an electro-mechanical nightmare, with most respondents declaring it, what with no repair instructions or circuit diagrams available, to be "unfixable".

Liking a formidable challenge, I dove in, taking it almost completely apart by removing about a bazillion small but different sized screws.  After weeks of agony trying to diagnose its problem, I GOT IT TO WORK...at least partially.  I ended up using external polarity and momentary ON/OFF switches to rotate the hopper,  But I gave up trying to get the retractor beams (that hold the car in place from above when rotating) to activate automatically before rotation.  (As I recall, to to fix that part, trying to locate, buy from China, and then reinstall these two approx 1" long, ~1/32" diameter, extremely soft, micro-sized springs was just an impossible task.)  So I settled for manually attaching tiny bungee cords over the car's top side edges to hold it in place for dumping.

BTW, only those who have tried to fix this beast can relate to the angst I developed trying to fully repair this nifty accessory.  As much as I love it and am in awe of its design complexity, even now when I take it in my hands to study it, a part of me wants to throw it on the floor and stomp on it!  To my knowledge, it is the only electro-mechanical thing that has ever stumped me, as I can usually 'engineer' my way around any nasty operating restoration problem.  But not this high-dollar, unbelievably complex but beautiful piece of Lionel crap.  So, if you like challenges, don't delay!  Get hold of one, and then drive yourself nuts in a real hurry.  Btw, anyone of you that picks up this gauntlet and actually fixes one of these mechanical beasts will have certainly earned my respect.  (I would compare working on this unit to working on a fine Swiss watch...with only a ball peen hammer and a pair of water-pump pliers.  Believe me, my fellow trainman, you are in for a real treat!) 

Gentlemen, I have taken the time to relate this experience to you only for one reason...to prove to you that, over the years, I have developed considerable experience tinkering with model trains, from upgrading or repairing my engines and rolling stock, to hand-laying a 20' x 35' O-Scale layout, using code 100 NS rail, and hand-fabricating 35 switches.  And most everything in-between.  So...enuff already!  You get the point.

Summing up, I really do appreciate hearing from each of you, so keep your kind words coming.  And, in return, if there is any interest in how I am making out with this Atlas track conversion venture, or, for that matter, how well PVC pipe turns out to be a workable and sensible layout construction medium, I will let you know.  Just let me know of any interest on your part.

It's late, and I gotta vaporize.                                                                                                                                HappyTrails,                                                                                                                                                                       JimP

I would sure like to see some photos of your PVC pipe construction project.

You got it, Felix.  Just give me a few days (or weeks) to clean up and put a pictorial together.

JimP

@72blackbird posted:

I think I could live with a center rail that is just 1/16" above the ties- it would be alot less obvious than the typical blackened center rail and work with pick up rollers. With the track is ballasted and rail weathered, I think it would pretty good.

I would love a track system like that.  I still prefer three rail since I can have multiple (many in fact) reversing loops and not have to worry about polarity and the expense/wiring of relays etc. to handle that.  I also think hi-rail flanges just afford you more slop with trackwork and less derailments.  I'm mostly comparing it to my HO days.

That said, a less visible center rail is appreciated.  Isn't the problem with a lower center rail is with crossovers and turnouts?  The center rail has to rise up at those locations to the height of outer rails in order to crossover them.  Obviously, Marklin stud rail handles this and it's not an insurmountable problem, just something that will require a lot of custom work on each turnout/crossing.

Hi rp.  Your concern with return loop wiring and the like is exactly why I chose to go with battery power for my 3-rail and 2-rail engines...any track voltage on the rails is there for signaling purposes only, or maybe also for LED lighting power for my passenger equipment.  BTW, engines with DC motors are easily converted to Blue Rail/battery operation, AC motors, not so much.  But with today's electronics, my thought was to install a miniature AC inverter between the Blue Rail DC control board output and the AC motor(s).  Sure, there's significant power loss, but hopefully still efficient enuff to get reasonable run-time out of a typical engine-contained Lith-ion battery.

Again, I recognize that my words may come across as a "how-to" plug for Blue Rail, but I assure you that I have absolutely no connection with Blue Rail, except as a buyer and user.  Maybe my zeal for this system comes from the fact that, years ago, I thought running our trains with internal batteries and a wireless hand-held throttle was the way to go...but back then the batteries were, current density storage-wise, just not efficient enuff.  Nor was there a low-cost wireless control system available.  So now my idea exists!  I just had to wait for these things to be invented.  Btw, here's another 'non-plug' for Blue Rail:  it can be mated with DCC, so that all the perks of using DCC are still available...great horns, lights, etc.  My challenge will be to figure out electronically how to save the great Lionel and MTH sounds, but use Blue Rail for battery-powered engine control. 

@rplst8 posted:

I would love a track system like that.  I still prefer three rail since I can have multiple (many in fact) reversing loops and not have to worry about polarity and the expense/wiring of relays etc. to handle that.  I also think hi-rail flanges just afford you more slop with trackwork and less derailments.  I'm mostly comparing it to my HO days.

That said, a less visible center rail is appreciated.  Isn't the problem with a lower center rail is with crossovers and turnouts?  The center rail has to rise up at those locations to the height of outer rails in order to crossover them.  Obviously, Marklin stud rail handles this and it's not an insurmountable problem, just something that will require a lot of custom work on each turnout/crossing.

You are correct- the center rail has to ramp up to allow rollers to cross over the outer rails.

I did a quick search last night to see if I could find 16 ga ripped to 1/4" strips- the shortest I could find was 1/2" tall. But forunately I still chat with AGHR Matt- he suggested I use code 100 HO rail- EXCELLENT IDEA. I'm pretty sure I can rip a slot in my Atlas O 3 rail track with a table saw- a laminate trim router can be used on curves.

Geno

@72blackbird posted:

You are correct- the center rail has to ramp up to allow rollers to cross over the outer rails.

I did a quick search last night to see if I could find 16 ga ripped to 1/4" strips- the shortest I could find was 1/2" tall. But forunately I still chat with AGHR Matt- he suggested I use code 100 HO rail- EXCELLENT IDEA. I'm pretty sure I can rip a slot in my Atlas O 3 rail track with a table saw- a laminate trim router can be used on curves.

Geno

Heck, why not use code 40 or code 55 rail.  Just put a dab of epoxy every so many ties.