converting from Lionel postwar transformers to Legacy Command and Control System

Thank you, Vernon, for the prompt reply.  The information is very helpful, and gives me a good starting point to begin my research.  Urbie

If you want to operate TMCC locomotives or Legacy engines in command mode, you will need a TMCC Command Base.  In short, to operate both conventional and command control locos, you will need a Command Base, a Powermaster and a CAB 1.  You will only need one Command Base, but as your railroad grows, you will  probably want to buy more Powermasters.  Powermasters, CAB 1s and TMCC Command Bases are readily available at reasonable prices.  I operate an extensive layout with three Postwar ZWs and five Powermasters.

Thanks, Goody,  I do not plan to operate any TMCC or Legacy motives on my layout, so using the Power Master option appears to be the most cost effective way to go.  I did notice from watching the Lionel tutorial on the subject purchasing a power adapter cable (Part # 6-12893) is recommended to provide an added layer of protection from short circuits.

NB  I did modify both of my ZW's with an advanced circuit breaker system and a diode to replace the rectifier disc for the whistle.

So if I want to continue using my PW ZW's it appears purchasing a Power Master with the aforementioned cable is all that is needed.

Lionel makes 2 Power Masters.  I will investigate which of the 2 is best for use with the PW ZW's.  One I believe has a side mounted switch that allows changing from conventional to command control.

One concern...it appears the Power Master can only apply a maximum of 18 watts of power to the track.  The ZW's go up to 20 watts.  Any issues here?

Finally, am I missing anything?

Thank you.

@Urbie posted:

So if I want to continue using my PW ZW's it appears purchasing a Power Master with the aforementioned cable is all that is needed.

Lionel makes 2 Power Masters.  I will investigate which of the 2 is best for use with the PW ZW's.  One I believe has a side mounted switch that allows changing from conventional to command control.

One concern...it appears the Power Master can only apply a maximum of 18 watts of power to the track.  The ZW's go up to 20 watts.  Any issues here?

Urbie,

There are two Legacy PowerMasters, not because of a the presence or absence of a switch, but because they provide two different levels of power:

1. Legacy PowerMaster 180 (Product No. 6-37146) -- Provides 180 Watts, which is roughly 10 Amps of current maximum at 18 VAC.
2. Legacy PowerMaster 360 (Product No. 6-82883) -- Provides 360 Watts, roughly 20 Amps of current maximum at 18 VAC.

Either of these can be fed by a ZW.  The 360 will pass through everything the ZW can provide (which is less than 20 Amps, more like 15).  The 180 will only deliver 10 Amps max.

In light of the above, the numbers that you've provided are a little confusing.   It helps to keep three terms clear: Voltage (in Volts), Current (in Amps), and Power (in Watts).  Because 18 Watts and 20 Watts are both far below either 180 or 360, you probably mean 18 Volts and 20 Volts instead, which are not confusing.

Why?  Old-style transformers frequently provide 20 VAC to the track if there's no locomotive or lighted cars on it.  The PowerMasters and almost all modern transformers (after about 1975) stop at 18 VAC.  All locomotives with electronics in them are rated at 18 VAC max.  It wouldn't be prudent to run them at 20 VAC.  They will run a little faster when the throttle is all the way up, but they will also likely wear out or fail quicker as a result.

So, If you're going to use a PowerMaster please set the ZW feeding it so that 18VAC goes into it, don't push the ZW to full throttle (although you can certainly push the PowerMaster to full throttle if you'd like), and live with the slight limitation in maximum speed on the track that results.

Which PowerMaster to use?  Most of us don't run big heavy old-fashioned locomotives with long strings of similarly old-fashioned lighted passenger cars behind them.  If you do go with the 360.  Otherwise the 180 should be fine.

Mike

Thanks, Mike, for the clarification.  Yes, I did mean volts and not watts.  As far the the Power Adapter Cable, do you recommend using one to serve as additional protection from short circuits?

Absolutely.  The circuit breaker update that you did on the ZW is there to protect the transformer from overheating and is a good idea in itself.  But, it won't protect the PowerMaster from being damaged because it's quite slow in tripping.  Once you put any electronics downstream of any old-fashioned transformer you'll need a fast-acting device to handle the new technology, and the fuse that's in the Power Adapter Cable will do this job quite well.

Mike

Again, thank you for the excellent advice.  I was very helpful. 

I grew up in with PW Lionel in the 1950's, but believe it's time to move my layout into the age of technology.

BTW  If you get Classic Toy Trains magazine, my layout was featured in the Sept/Oct 2023 issue HK/WU RR.  Hope you get a chance to review it.  Have a great Holiday Season and Happy New Year. 

Mike, Vernor or Goody,

While digging deeper into the 6-12893 360 Powermaster, I read where it works with all Lionel Command Remotes: Cab-1, Cab-1L, and Cab-2.  Any opinions as to which of these is the best match? 

I control 3 independent loops with my 2 ZW's so I will need three Powermasters....one for each loop.  Thank you.

Vernon,

"Again, the cheapest possible option is 3 TMCC powermasters, and one CAB1 remote."

Based on that recommendation, purchasing the Legacy PowerMaster 360 (Product No. 6-82883)  appears to be the least expensive way to go.

So my shopping list should be:

3 Legacy PowerMaster 360 (Product No. 6-82883) 

3 Power Adapter Cables (Product No. 6-12893

1 CAB1 Remote

Did I get this correct?

Thank you very much.

Thank you for the reply.  I watched the Lionel video link that you sent earlier which (if my understanding is correct) did not suggest adding a TMCC base.  Guess I need to do more research.  Appreciate your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEVHZLeJdzQ

Good Day,

Circling back on yesterday's helpful exchange on trying to understand what exactly I need to buy in order to take advantage of Command Control technology, I attached the above link to Lionel's tutorial on the subject.  I found the presentation very confusing which is adding to my inability to reconcile the recommendations you were so kind to provide.  For example, the Lionel tutorial mentions using only 1 cable per powermaster...not 2.  There are other discrepancies that I am attempting to resolve. 

Based on the Lionel tutorial what exactly would I need to purchase given I have 3 independent loops of tubular O'Gauge track and I want to use my 2 Postwar ZW transformers?   

Thank you and I appreciate your indulgence in helping me make the correct choice.  I admit that my knowledge of command control technology is nowhere near as sophisticated as compared to my understanding of PW Transformers.  Have a great day.

I'll present a slightly opposing point of view.  IMO there is no reason to use the 360 watt Powermaster, and it just runs up the expense.  The whole point of the Powermaster is to provide variable track power for conventional running.  That being the case, it would be a very rare configuration that would require more than 10 amps of current to run, I seriously doubt you'll need that much power.  The other issue with running 20 amps to the rails is a derailment frequently does more damage to wheels/pickups and/or interior wiring before a breaker trips.

For running conventional only with the remote control, I'd be looking for either the original TMCC CAB1 remote and the TMCC Powermasters, this is the low cost option.

If you want to plan for future expansion to command operation, then consider the newer Legacy BASE1L/CAB1L set and the Legacy Powermasters.

There seems to be some confusion here between availability, cost, "need" and "wants."  TMCC and Cab-1 were the earliest Lionel command control equipment, and along with TMCC-related Powermasters, could be used to control what we call "conventional" (non-command control) locomotives as well as TMCC-equipped locomotives.  The TMCC Powermasters received / translated commands from the Cab-1 (the remote control) and sent them directly to the conventional engines through the track.  So, TMCC would be your easiest solution and your cheapest solution, but might also be the hardest solution to achieve.  Why?  Because any TMCC equipment you find will now be well over a decade old (2 decades??) and you have to find working equipment as well as all the related parts for the solution to powering 3 loops.  But, you still only need 1 remote (Cab-1) and 3 TMCC-designated Powermasters (plus appropriate cables) to make it work.  Be warned, though, that it is rare to find a working TMCC Cab-1 without its base as part of a sale package, and, if you do consider buying that package, be sure you get the related Lionel power supply (cord with transformer plug) because the system won't work well (if at all) without it.

After Cab-1 came Cab-2 (with Base-2), Cab-1L (with Base-1L) and the soon to be released Base-3 (with no specific remote, but will work with Cab-2 or Cab-1L remotes if you can find one).  Using any of these with conventional equipment can be done, but the cost is generally higher and the wiring is slightly more complicated.  The easiest to find (and most likely the cheapest at this point) will be the Base-3 when it is released, and you can read Lionel's marketing info about this product to get some idea of its capabilities.

Just remember that your ZWs are providing the power to whichever command system you choose, and its all about what command capabilities you want to put between your power source and your locomotives.

Hope this helps some.

Chuck

Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions.  Again, I am not by any means "married" to any one solution at this point.  I'm attempting to explore all options in an attempt to find the one that will allow me to run PW Lionel motives with my ZW transformers at the most reasonable price.

The recommendation from gunrunnerjohn struck an accord.  "For running conventional only with the remote control, I'd be looking for either the original TMCC CAB1 remote and the TMCC Powermasters, this is the low cost option."

Appreciate everyone's time and input.

Urbie,

Follow Gunrunner John's advice!  You have three conventional loops and with two ZWs you have four throttles.  You connect each Powermaster  to one of the throttles.  If you want to use a fourth throttle, then get another Powermaster for that fourth loop.  In addition to the Powermasters, purchase three cables with in-line fuse and a CAB 1.  You will love the set-up.

Thank you, Goody,

I agree...Gunrunnerjohn's recommendation seems to offer the best option given the parameters of what I am looking to accomplish.  He favors using the 180 watts vs. the 360 watts PowerMaster as listed below:

1. Legacy PowerMaster 180 (Product No. 6-37146) -- Provides 180 Watts, which is roughly 10 Amps of current maximum at 18 VAC.
2. Legacy PowerMaster 360 (Product No. 6-82883) -- Provides 360 Watts, roughly 20 Amps of current maximum at 18 VAC.

So here is another question.  I run on my layout the 1952 Lionel Set # 2190W which for Lionel aficionados is the 2343 Santa Fe A-B units pulling 4 aluminum cars each with 2 incandescent lights on one of my 3 loops.  Would this motive and concert suggest using the 180 Watt or the 360 Watt PowerMaster?

I also have a number or 726 & 736 PW Berks that I use on these 3 loops with either Madison P-Cars or operating cars.  And of course these also draw a lot of current. 

The collective suggestions from everyone have been tremendous.  Thank you all for your help.

You will have no problem with that consist using 180W Powermasters.  If any of these proposed consists overloads the 180W PM, you have maintenance to do on your locomotives.

Questions regarding this forum. I am using a Lionel ZW-L transformer with Legacy CAB 2 too power my layout. With the command control in the transformer the the CAB 2 will vary the track voltage to run my conventional postwar locomotives. I know very little about Powermasters. I have four seperate loops, each one powered by one of the handles on the ZW-L. Could someone with knowledge of both offer comments re: cost and benefits of each?

Here's what you would need:

-4 180W Legacy Powermasters; 1 per ZW track output (A and D handles)

-4 PM Adapter Cables (1 per Powermaster)

-Legacy #990 System, Cab1L/Base1L, or TMCC System (or new Base3 and Cab1L)

-Fast-acting circuit breakers for each ZW; PMs have that feature, too

That's it. It's really easy to hook up command control. Plus, with TMCC/Legacy, you can walk around your layout and watch trains run instead of sitting or standing at a fixed control panel.

Some other command-control suggestions for the future:

-Accessories and switches can be controlled with TMCC/Legacy; all you need is a Lionel SC-2, ASC, or ASC2.

-LCS ASC2 requires the LCS Power Cable or Base3 for power/control, as well as an LCS PDI Cable

I'm not clear what the question here is.  ZW-L has built in Powermasters, so to do conventional control, you're set.  If you are talking command control, you just need a Legacy base for the layout, since you have the cab2.

@Urbie ,

I just checked on eBay , and some of the prices are ridiculous for the original TMCC command set 6-12896 which includes the 6-12867 cab- 1 , $300.00, $350.00, and one for $555.00 !  Unfortunately, the only Cab-1 used has got heavy battery corrosion in the batt compartment. I couldn’t find anything to run your other than that that is not “ new”.  This includes the PM-1 adapter power cable ( which is not the norm), so that would kill two birds W/ one stone.  This Pm-1 has both “ conventional “, and TMCC option ( as pm-1’s all do). You’d just need the 6-12867 Cab-1 and you’d be set to run your older locos W/ your ZW 😁🚂🚂

Maybe I wasn't very clear. I am currently operating with a ZW-L and Legacy Base with a CAB 2 remote. That setup works very well for me either with TMCC/Legacy engines or postwar conventional engines. I can either address the track # for conventional or engine number for Command Control. Just wondering the cost\benefit comparisions?

Comparison between ?  You already have all the equipment needed for both command and conventional.  What additional costs are you contemplating?  With what potential benefits?