Converting Older Lionel Engines

Mike to convert the engines to command control you would need to get with Electric Railroad as this would convert them to TMCC control. You could run your engines conventionally with the proper setup in either MTH DCS or TMCC/Legacy by remote without doing a thing to them. Buying new engines is a different matter. You can run either MTH or Lionel command controlled engines with either system alone but it will be conventionally. You can run Lionel engines in command mode if you have a TMCC command base hooked up with the DCS system. There is no perfect system that will run ALL the features of all the manufacturers engines.

Ron

Ron,

Thanks for the info, however, it was still pretty confusing to me.  I'm somebody who has never seen or used anything other than the one transformer that can control 4 trains conventionally.  I, to this point, do not fully even understand TMCC/Legacy or DCS.  Is there any way to put it in black and white for me?

Thanks,
Mike

PS. Sorry if I dont sound all that intelligent, but with this stuff, its all new to me

Here's a website that will give you a virtual try of TMCC command control. This is Lionel's precursor to Legacy. The Legacy remote is more powerful and a little easier to use. To hook up TMCC/Legacy and run command engines as well as your conventional with the remote you would need the TMCC/Cab1 or Cab2/Legacy base system and at least 1 Powermaster or Legacy Powermaster per independent loop of track that you want to run a conventional engine on. So 1 loop = 1 Powermaster or Legacy Powermaster. Either command system will control up to 99 engines at the same time although that would be very hard to do. To hook the command system up you run one wire from the base to the outer rail of track and that's it. Fire em up and em out. My 2 year old grandaughter was running a train in less than a minute. Here is the link to the coil couplers site try it out.

http://www.coilcouplers.com/tmc/tmc.html

Ron

Ron,

Thank you, that interactive site was very helpful.  So now I understand the control, but are you saying to control these older engines, I will need to convert them to the TMCC control?  I saw that you said I'd need to get with Electric Railroad, is that a forum member or something I google?  The end result for me is that I'd like to be able to control these three engines that I have and possibly an MTH that I may buy in the next 6 months (if I have to control this seperately, thats fine)

Thanks,
Mike 

Mike, for  what its worth, you may regret converting these post war engines so please consider the nostalgic value, what they meant to you and your parents way back when. You would do better to invest that money in a new MTH or Lionel with all the bells and whistles you could possibly want. Just my opinion, from a post war guy who owns a couple  of the new engines.

Regards,

Joe Geiser

Joe,

So your opinion is to keep these engines conventional and if I want something with a different control, buy something new?  For example I'm looking into possibly buying a MTH Norfolk Southern that is brand new

Mike you don't need to convert  your engines to command control. With a Cab2, Legacy base and Legacy Powermaster you could control one loop of track (one Engine) with the engines in there current form. No conversion needed. This would allow you control of speed, direction, whistle and bell if they have one. If you want to run multiple trains on multiple loops you just add another Legacy Powermaster for each Loop (train) you want to run. With the powermasters you will be able to run command or conventional engines on the track it controls.

Ron

Mike, Joe is correct. The new command controlled engines have a lot more features than just moving around and blowing the whistle. You can execute certain sounds besides the bell or whistle. You can also fire the couplers anywhere on the layout, turn the smoke on or off with remote and adjust the sound volume. Bear in Mind that each train manufacturer has there own system and to use all the features for that system you must use there engines. My comments are geared towards the Lionel system because in my opinion it is easier to set up and run and the fact that you have Lionel engines now.

Ron

If you really want to convert your older engines you can get the boards from Electric RR, which is owned by Lionel. However, the boards are going to cost more than your locomotives are worth.  Also, all you would get from them is digital horn, bell, engine sound, and ability to give them an assigned address.  I've converted a couple of my postwar favorites but that was for nostalgia's sake.  The best bet is as mentioned above: run them in conventional mode using a Powermaster and a Cab-1 or Cab-2 remote controller.  That is if you go with the Lionel system.  BTW, Atlas, Weaver, and 3rd Rail locomotives can use the Lionel system also.   MTH is the odd man out and only works with their own command system.

You can convert older open frame motored equipment to TMCC with boards from http://www.electricrr.com

 

You can only convert DC can  motored equipment to MTH's system.

 

I agree with what the others have posted regarding "upgrading" the older engines.  While it can be done it will not be easy or cheap and the engine will not have all of the features a more modern product would sport.   Both DCS and TMCC/Legacy have mechanisms to allow you to use remote throttle capability for non command equipped trains.  I think the coil coupler site has a tutorial on non command equipment.  The names of the parts may have changed but the underlying principals are still the same.

Phooey on the powermaster. Powermaster has limited speed steps and almost no other features. Get a TPC 300 or a TPC 400. They have built-in programming to utilize/operate many of the features in MTH locomotives of all vintages, as well as allowing you to operate ALL locomotives of any brand remotely.

I didnt plan on converting them.  Basically I just wanted to know the easiest way to control multiple older trains with newer technology.  If I buy a MTH engine, its not a big deal if I have a different transformer/controller for it

Chuck you can also convert DC can motors to command control and also add cruise to them as well which you cannot do to the pullmore motors.

RoyBoy the new Legacy Powermaster is supposed to render the TPC obsolete according to Jon at Lionel. It's not out yet so it will be a wait. My guess it will have about the same electronics that the new ZW has which is 200 speed steps.

Ron

Yes, you can convert can motored loco's to either DCS or TMCC butyou can only convert open frame to TMCC.

 

While the Legacy PowerMaster is a big step up from the original, Jon has been silent about support for the MTH PS-1/PS-2 macros that the TPC's had built into them.  I may not buy any more TPC's going forward but I'm not trading in the ones I have.

You can run conventional with a powermaster and Cab 1.  Cheapest scenario to operate with a handheld remote.  This is how I run my dad's circa 1930's set.  It's kind of cool, but I already have the gear.  With a TPC you need a command base.  Extra cost for no benefit if you are staying conventional - operating the engines with variable voltage to the track.

"Extra cost for no benefit if you are staying conventional"

PM has 32 speed steps.  TPC starts at 80 speed steps and can be set for 200 or 400.  

Ron,

Thanks. If I go with the PowerMaster and the Cab-1 or Cab-2 remote, will it matter which track it is on?  I know 3-rail, but I mean Fastrack, Tubular,..etc.?

Thanks,
Mike 

 

Chuck,

This may be something I should know, or maybe most of you do (I do not), but by open frame, you mean what exactly?

 

Chuck,

Sort of the same as above, something I dont know/understand.  Speed steps, is that just speed settings that are available? 

Thanks,
Mike

 

The end result for me here is basically the easiest (and preferably cheapest) way to control my older engines with newer equipment, mostly a remote.

 

Thanks! 

Conventional control of your postwar engines is possible with both systems (under DCS the capability is built-in, no additional box required). This of course means one engine per track.

 

Adding command-control circuit boards to your older engines will add to them the ability to run on the same track with independent control, as well as mingle with your newer equipment, but has been pointed out above, the advanced features of modern locos will be absent. and the boards themselves may cost more than your engines are worth. This may or may not matter to you--some would value the flexibility of running their vintage locos alongside modern equipment regardless of feature sets or nostalgic value..

 

--The brand of track doesn't matter. If it will run on it in conventional, it will certainly run on it in command.

 

--The open frame motor is of the style found in postwar engines, with removable brushes and whatnot. In a small-to-medium-sized postwar steamer, the motor forms most of the frame that the shell is attached to. On your two diesels it'll be mounted vertically over the truck it's powering, but you can still see the rotating parts.

 

--"Can" motors are self-contained motors housed in a metal can (hence the name), and therefore the moving parts are largely hidden.

 

--Speed steps refer to the number of discrete speeds that a given control system allows you to run a given engine at. The more steps, the finer the level of control. 

 

---PCJ

Which transformer are you using?  The newer ZW's have powermasters built in.

 

doug

Thank you.  Very, very helpful information, I appreciate it.

 

Doug,
I currently have no transformer.  Next weekend I'm buying an MTH RK from a RTR set.  That will have the MTH transformer/controller (I've never owned one).  So I'm basically starting from scratch 

Here is something to think about too. Say that you buy a MTH proto 2 or 3 later on, with a MTH TIU you can run your older postwar trains on two separate loops through the variable channels and newer command trains on the fixed voltage channel be it MTH engines or Lionel engines with a command base and appropriate cable. The MTH TIU also can do other trick things like allow you to "talk" through your remote on MTH engines, play music through the speakers and all kinds of other things without additional equipment. Just my 2 cents.

 

The MTH I'm buying next week is either a Proto 2 or 3, not sure.  I'm getting everything that would come in the RTR set.  What exactly is the MTH TIU?   And what all would I need and need to do to get the Lionel Postwar to run on it?

Thanks,
Mike 

If that feature didn't go nuts at times and lock up the remote, it would be more useful.

Mike. If the RTR set is already equipped proto 2 or 3 what you would need to purchase is the complete DCS system that will allow you to run your proto engines plus postwar engines. Built inside the TIU (Track Interface Unit) are four channels, two fixed channels-two variable channels. The two variable allow you to run old school Lionel by varying the power out to the track as well as being able to blow air whistle or honk a horn. A welcomed edition to help you learn all the things that you can also do would be barry's book on DCS. As long as you power fixed channel 1 or power through the aux port with recommended power source you should be alright.

Dave,

Thanks!  That put it more in black and white for me.  What is Barry's book?

Thanks,
Mike 

Barry hopefully will see this and direct you to either MTH website or another way. It is a book to help either the novice or experienced DCS user achieve total remote control over anything from switches, accessory control, lighting, etc. It can be purchased in hard copy or electronically whatever is your preference. OK Barry, your turn 

Mike,

  Can I offer experience to you, remembering this is my idea?

 

  First , decide do you want to start with LIONEL or MTH or WILLIAMS, what you have are old LIONEL with I think I remember one MPC LIONEL.

 

  Next , I would forget upgrading older stuff for now.

 

  All 3 companies offer what you need, with LIONEL offering more.

 

  I would start with a new start up set with new track and transformer, all three offer different track , but all are compatable with one another for extra cost, personally I would go with the LIONEL,,,but thats my personal opinion based on 60+ years of running trains. The other 2 companies are good, but just not my choice.

 

  Don't worry about all the control systems, they are all good , but with limitations

  For transformers, you can't go wrong with a LIONEL ZW.

 

  Remember these are my ideas, feel free to discard them.

 

Rod

I hope Barry does too!

 

Rod,

You're information was helpful, thank you!

 

Mike

I will throw my two cents in also. I chose the DCS system since you can operate both MTH engines and Lionel engines with it. You cannot operate MTH engines with the TMCC or the Legacy system. You cannot access all of the newer Legacy features with DCS, but that was my trade off (I cannot afford newer Legacy engines anyway, so I am not at a loss). MTH usually offers a bit lower priced engines if you are like me and do not have a lot of extra money to spend. You can always find deals for both brands, but you may want to research the catalogs of both companies to compare price. To run Lionel engines on DCS, you do have to purchase the command base for the Lionel system and connect it to the DCS unit (the TIU). Anyway, it is a fairly big initial expense when just getting back into the hobby. I jumped back in about 6 years ago right when I retired. It was the new electronics that amazed and excited me.

 

So, that brings up the other question. I had postwar engines that I got as a kid. My parents gave me the 682 set and I got a 736 from a trade for a mowing job. Anyway, there was another company at that time called Trains America Systems (TAS) that produced a similar product as ERR. I bought the boards and with their directions I put them in. I understand that that might be blasphemous, but the engines look exactly the same but now run under command control and have much better sounds and are less "toy like". They are not but any means to scale, but they are great looking engines. Have I compromised there collector value? Sure and that was a factor that caused me to balk a bit, but unfortunately postwar engines are worth a fraction of what many new Lionel Legacy engines and Premier MTH engines are today. I have not regretted one time doing that upgrade. I hope this helps. It is only an opinion of course and must be taken in context of when I jumped back in. TMCC had been out for awhile and DCS was fairly new. I liked the DCS controller better with the LCD screen so that I could see all of the functions, plus it could run Lionel engines too. I am not a Lionel vs. MTH modeler.  I have both and enjoy both. As you have read I am sure on the forum each can have quirks that can be exasperating at times. Hope this has helped.

I have both Legacy and DCS systems and a number of each of the locomotives.  Both have their positives and negatives.  I find the Legacy controller a bit nicer then the DCS controller, but you do get a ton of options with the DCS systems.  I started out with Legacy and added the DCS last year.

 

I agree with the opinions that I wouldn't jump right into converting locomotives right now, save that for any "special" models that you'd really like to keep and use.  You can regularly buy both TMCC and ProtoSound 2 (DCS) locomotives in the $200 range, and the upgrade boards will cost close to that for either system.

 

Thanks guys.

From the sounds of it, I shouldnt convert, which is fine.  I'd just like to be able to control everything with one remote.  If I can do that without "converting" anything, then that would work perfect 

If you want a "one stop shop" for remote control of conventional stuff, the MTH DCS system is probably the way to go.

 

DCS includes the remote and the TIU.  The TIU is a four channel device, and two of the channels allow variable voltage control for conventional locomotives from the remote.  You just add power to the inputs of the TIU and connect the outputs to the track.

So... do MTH RTR sets come with DCS and TIU?  Or is that something I'll have to buy separately? If so, could you tell me exactly what I will need?
Thanks,

Mike

No, the RTR sets come with the DCS Remote Commander, it's a basic remote that allows you to control a single DCS locomotive remotely, and only if it's reset to factory defaults. 

Thanks John. So, on top of what I'm getting in the RTR set, I'll need a separate DCS and TIU?  Will the DCS Remote Commander do anything with the additional DCS/TIU?  Everything should be factory defaults, both will be brand new

Thanks,
Mike 

The RTR DCS Remote Commander is a stand-alone product, it can't be used with the full DCS system.  You're no losing much, street price of the DCS Remote Commander by itself is $30-35.  Needless to say, the full DCS system is a bit more expensive.

 

As long as you're happy running one locomotive at a time with the DCS Remote Commander, you can use it.

 

 

You're doing the right thing, asking questions and getting varied opinions on the two competing systems, that's the first step.   I'd see if you can visit some local clubs and see what others are running, and get a feel for the two systems and their application.  We can talk endlessly about the pro and cons of either system, each has their strong points and weak points.  In the end, you have to decide which system best fits where you want to go.  Also, you aren't making a lifetime decision here, you can add the other system and run both side-by-side.  With both Legacy and DCS, you can run multiple locomotives of each command type at the same time on the same layout, the best of both worlds.

 

Thanks John, that definitely helps to know.  I was in my LHS the other day and the guy informed me that with the DCS TIU system, I wont be able to run more than one conventional engine on the same loop.  I picked up my new MTH Norfolk Southern SD70 and got to use the DCS remote for the first time.  I like it, but then again, all I've ever used in the past is the conventional Lionel controls.  

Well, you can't run more than one conventional locomotive on a single loop with any system.  I know somebody is going to jump in and say how they have three of them running, but it's really not practical.  If you want control, it's only one. 

 

The DCS remote is fine, I happen to prefer the feel of the Lionel Legacy remote, even though the knock is it takes two hands.  The big knob is far superior to the flaky thumbwheel on the DCS remote IMO.

 

(I started writing this when 'mjrodg3n88's last post was only 7 minutes old..sometimes my posts take a while to write )

 

For the longest time, conventional control meant one loco per transformer.

 

Some transformers had two or more controls built-in (such as the ZW). You still had one loco per control, and running trains on both controls meant they had to be on physically separate loops of track.

 

Connecting the two loops with crossover switches usually meant electrically separating them, primarily by replacing the center-rail pin between the two switches with a plastic one. Each train becomes capable of changing tracks, with the complication being that if one train moves onto a track occupied by another, both trains are being run by one control handle and you lose independent control.

 

--Since both trains may run at different speeds for a given voltage, you'd likely have trouble keeping them from running into each other without adding even more insulating pins to create sections of track you could disable with power switches, thus stopping one of the trains. But this is starting to get complicated, and you still don't really have independent control of the two trains.

 

Enter command control.

 

The idea with command control is you (or the factory) outfit each loco with a circuit board that acts like a miniature robo-engineer that only responds to commands sent specifically to it by way of a remote that talks to a control box that either sits between the transformer and the track or in parallel with it. One power source supplies the track at a constant voltage (usually 16-18 volts), but the locomotives suitably equipped only take what they're told to do. This means multiple locos on the same track can all be controlled independently.

 

The two main systems on the market are MTH's Digital Command System (DCS), controlling Protosound 2 and 3 locomotives (Protosound 1, or PS1 isn't command control--it's only a sound board in a conventional loco) and Lionel's Legacy system, which is an updated, expanded version of Trainmaster Command Control (TMCC), also made by Lionel.

 

Both systems can control conventional locomotives, albeit with the same restrictions  of traditional transformer control outlined in my first four paragraphs.

--With DCS, the ability to do so is built into two of the four outputs on the control box, called a Track Interface Unit (TIU).

--Under TMCC or Legacy, this requires a separate box called a 'track power controller' (TPC) that connects to the TMCC/Legacy command base and acts as a remote-controlled transformer handle.

 

A DCS system can operate TMCC locomotives in command mode by connecting a TMCC or Legacy Command base to the TIU via a cable supplied by MTH as shown below:

 

 

Lionel made the control codes for TMCC public, as well as licensing the system out to a number of other manufacturers in an effort to standardize its system, which made DCS control of a TMCC command base possible. However MTH kept its DCS control codes a closely-guarded secret (and when Lionel developed Legacy, it also chose to keep the additional feature codes a company secret). The end result of this is DCS can operate a connected TMCC or Legacy command base, but it can only issue TMCC-level commands to Legacy locomotives. A TMCC or Legacy remote isn't able to talk to the DCS system at all.

 

Both systems can co-exist on the same layout. Since their transmission styles and protocols are different, you can run locos from both systems on the same track without interfering with one another: 

 

In the above pic, the lead unit is a DCS loco, the one coupled behind it is a TMCC unit. I ran these coupled together pulling a train using just a DCS remote (at the time I didn't have a TMCC remote), switching back and forth to sync up their speeds. It was a real juggling act, but I pulled it off.

 

By the way, locos from all the above systems will operate in conventional--just that the advanced features won't be accessible.

 

---PCJ