"Cowcatcher clearance"

Lee,

I own several RK Imperial steamers, not scale, that have cowcatchers that will short to the center rail on a steep grade, and one that will even short if there's a dip in the track. Fortunately, the two "dips" were easy enough to correct.

Lee, if you want the cow catcher to be scale in distance from the track, then you have to make your grades scale also. there are certain things you have to give up when running on a toy train layout and cow catcher height is one of them

I think that it would be better if you fixed the track, and not the individual locos. One problem with both Lionel and MTH is that the clearance from the bottom of the pilot casting to the top of the rail is way too much, and I believe that it detracts from the overall look of the locomotive. Neither of these manufacturers include provision for movement or add springs to the axle boxes of locomotives, so this should make the job easier. Perhaps they could just make this change in their premier, etc. offerings.....

My opinion.....

I've adjusted several of them to avoid this issue.  If I can't move it easily, I do a little grinding on the bottom for a bit more clearance.

Hello Lee

After looking at your photos, it seems like the distance from the first drive axle to the very front of the cow catcher is longer than normal. Can you move the cowcatcher in closer?

Just a thought

Clem

Prototypical clearances usually don't agree with out "toy trains", hence the larger pilot gaps on most if not all engines. Diesel or steam engines, doesn't matter, you're better off with a larger gap to prevent hitting the rails.  

Hello, Lee.

I must say from the smoke box, it looks to be a great locomotive.  I can't wait to see it when its done.

Although I haven't had this issue with my steamers, I don't run them as much as I should.

As for diesels, I do see that they run high, and I believe it is because of this scare that the pilots do run high.  Personally, I've become used to it as I'm already overlooking other things, but I have indeed noticed it.

At first, when designing the ride height of my work, I used the trip pin height on the Kadee coupler height gauge.  But after some issues like yours, I decided to use the 0.025" higher step next to the trip pin space on the gauge.

The Lionel GP30 is the lowest pilot that I've done, and basically was a metal straight edge across the tracks for the height, which corresponds to the foot boards being at the trip pin height.  It runs well on my layout, and its super elevated curves (yes, the trucks clear the pilot).

Just my thoughts...

Thanks,

Mario

The one that sticks most in my mind was the John Bull model Lionel did a while back.

I don't think I ever shorted it, but I did note that it was very close to the rails when running on my Carpet Central.  I'd be very cautious with this one if I had grades on a permanent layout.

-Dave

I can't fix the track.  It is smooth and level, but I have to change slop going in and out of climbs, and that means the track has to have an angle in it, even if I allow a good long length to make the transition.  As JohnS observed "there are certain things you have to give up when running on a toy train layout and cow catcher height is one of them."

Did you say, "2-6-4"?  I thought that was a fantasy Lionel wheel arrangement, sorta

like all the tinplate 2-4-2's that were few and fur betwixt in the prototype.  Did Santa

Fe have 2-6-4's?  I was aware pilots can short to the center rail, probably from fooling

around with my childhood Marx and sharp grades.

Lee, they ceased to be "cowcatchers" by the late 1800's. What you are talking about is "pilot clearance."

There is a trick of putting some tape on the bottom of the cowcatcher, if I remember correctly.

Thanks,

Mario

For what its worth, the FRA regulations specify a minimum clearance of 3 inches from the bottom of the pilot to the top of the rail, and a maximum of 6 inches.

"Cowcatcher clearance"? I had my Visa out all ready to order a Bag-o-Pilots.

Anyway, yes, when we have a model world, -especially- with a center rail, that pilot

just can't be as down and dirty as we would like. Some are higher than others, especially

on the "cheap" starter sets (first-grader track laying can be casual), but most of the

more scaley locos are pretty good. Plenty good; it's all about compromise, like life.

===

colorado hirailer -

The 2-6-4 is not a fantasy arrangement, but rare in N. America. Can't think of any

besides some commuter tank locos. But they did exist. I believe that the 2-6-4 has/had

some currency in Europe and Asia.

It even seems to have had a name: have seen it referred to as an "Adriatic" type. I forget in what publication.

Aargh! They are NOT "COWCATCHERS!!

They are "pilots."

Geez...this is worse than "lashup."  

Does anybody know how to "lashup" "cowcatchers"?

I'm sorry... I did do that on purpose.

If you notice my original post, I did not use the offending word.

On the other hand, I was not joking about the use of some sort of protective material on the bottom of said pilot.  I remember hearing of tape or super glue or clear finger nail polish being used as an insulator for occasional center rail contact.

What about electrically isolating the whole pilot assembly, much like Alex did with his antenna bell?

Thanks,

Mario

1/16"-1/8" in O scale (0.0625"-0.125").  That is indeed the trip pin height on the Kadee gauge. Picture courtesy of Kadee.com.

That is not a lot.

Interesting.  I had a scale 5 inches clearance.  Now I have just less than a scale foot. It's like the hi-rail wheels and flanges - just have to live with it.  

ROTFLMAO!

Now THAT was funny!

Well, terminology varies with layout.  

They were "cowcatchers" when I was six.

They were "cowcatchers" when each of my three boys were six.

The are still "cowcatchers" now that I am sixty-six, 

and will be, here, ever more: there is comfort in things that don't change.

Pilots?  They fly airplanes. 

I think the comment about how far the first drivers are from the pilot was probably dead on. 

I did like lashing up the cowcatcher, that was pretty funny.

This is how you obtained your PE License?

In a way yse, although I don't think the term was on the test forty years ago.  Last year we gave a presentation to executives at a utility about the power system we had designed for them that would feed the new electric transit trains in their city, and we and they used "cowcatcher" to discuss the pilot of the locos when talking about track sensors for the trains (the sensors for their smart feed system are mounted on the underside of a a cabinet on the left side in the pilot at each end of the train.  Just common sense to use a term your customers will understand: everyone knows cowcatcher, few know pilot.  

Back to toy trains:  I have no problem with folks who want to use all the right railroad terminology including the slang, but I'm not into that: to me they are toys not really related very much to real trains.  Cowcatcher communicated well,  just as "lash up" does, too. 

BTW-  I'm not a PE since the first of the year.  I'm retired now: not paying several hundred dollars a year for licenses I don't need.  

I have had this problem a few times with larger Steamers on poor trackwork.

Duct tape trimmed flush with the leading edge on the bottom of the point cures it and lasts quite a while.

Since I haven't lashed anything since I was a Biy Scout, I'll have to stick with pilots, drivers and the such.

My latest creation has about 6 scale inches of clearance, Clarence. Roger, Roger? 

Thanks,

Mario

Jeez! I knew when I first read the posting that you knew the term "pilot" and was just

emphasizing.  You put "cowcatcher" in quotes, as I have.  I am still curious as to

whether the Santa Fe had 2-6-4's (Adriatics?) and as to what is that white material you

are using to reshape the smokebox?   Is that styrene?  (I thought 2-6-4 might be a typo)

First, yes, I put it in quotes: unofficial term, its a pilot, actually,  but . . . 

No, Santa Fe had no Adriatics I know of, but its a great fantasty loco. I've built it purely on aesthetics -- what looks good.  

As to the bashing.  It is it white, it is sheet styrene (Plastruck).  If it is clear is is polycarbonate tube.

I had that issue with my MTH Standard Gauge 4-4-0. I actually pushed it up a fraction of an inch and that solved the issue.

Scott Smith

In the days of link-and-pin couplers, cowcatchers were long and heavily constructed to push cows and other obstructions off the track and prevent derailments. A long rod with a hole at the end for a pin was anchored in the pilot beam and rested along the center. It was raised to a horizontal position to couple a car, a locomotive or a tender in front.

When knuckle couplers came along, cowcatchers were shortened considerably and called "pilots," as posted above.

Here is a Lionel "O" Gauge GENERAL set with a cowcatcher.

Here is No. 17, the YORK, with a cowcatcher modified for a knuckle coupler. This could represent a "missing link" between a cowcatcher and a pilot. This beauty runs on the historic Northern Central Railway between New Freedom and Hanover Junction south of York, PA, under the auspices of Steam into History

Here is a Lionel Reading T-1 with a stubby pilot and footboards. The thrifty Reading made pilots from old boiler tubes.

Seems that raising the ... SteakMaker™... is the best option here.  As for what gives me trouble, the Polar Express Berk.Jr. likes to give me fits with the long 'nose'.  

All I know is I wouldn't want to be the cow...

Rusty

The Caribou Catcher?  (That would have certainly put a different feel to that part of the movie! )

-Dave

I suggest in these pages that O scale cows (or caribou) be manufactured with longer legs, so as to be suitably caught by said cow-catcher.

I have a Polar Express Berk too - I suspect that thing is an elephant catcher.

C'mon...  You know somebody had to dig up something like this sooner or later...

Rusty

              Save the Cows !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry if my terminology caused some people to have a beef with me.  However, I will not cow before all the pressure.  I think the whole matter is a lot of bull, but I promise to steer away from such controversial topics in the future lest you brand me a bad little dogie.

It's all Greek to me.

Sit back, relax...  Have a gyros...

Rusty