DCS signal Engines disappear???

20 years with DCS and still learning. Even though one TIU is on the layout and one you were using as a test track. They weren’t both powered up at the same time in your last scenario and the remote is seeing 2  #1 TIU addresses. But in the beginning you were only dealing with the one on the layout. Whenever I have issues. It’s usually battery related. With PS3 engines it should rule that out. Most times I just delete the engine and start over and re add it.

Good point on having two Tiu's powered. Unfortunately that sadly was not the case. I did remove power and usb cable from test track before going to main layout to test.  I worry about deleting the engine and it never finding it again. That could provide more info, if it finds it to add it but still doesn't show when a read button is hit. I'll try it.

I’m not one that usually presses the read button unless I’m having an issue.  Don’t think I ever did it with a moving engine. If you have a really bad track signal. It may not see the engine when you press it. Remember. Once an engine gets moving. Even if you lose control of it. It will always  follow the last command it received. I think by pressing it. The only reason for an engine to go on the inactive list is it’s either not on the layout or it’s on an unpowered track with say a toggle switch. It only reads what it sees. If you manage to get it up and moving. It wouldn’t hurt to do a track signal test just to see where you stand. A lousy signal can make it hard to run anything reliably.

Please purchase the DCS O Gauge Companion from the MTH website. I assume that the wires are minimum 16 gauge stranded (18 gauge produces the results that you are experiencing).      

@Gerald Jackson posted:

Please purchase the DCS O Gauge Companion from the MTH website. I assume that the wires are minimum 16 gauge stranded (18 gauge produces the results that you are experiencing).      

Hi Gerald,

The wires are 16 ga. and have the DCS O Gauge Companion from MTH which I have been using to electrically set up the entire layout. Using star wiring for power feeds to various districts. Always good to check fundamentals.

And Dave C. good point on engine just using the last command, I was thinking that there was always communication between the engine and tiu (throw back to guided missile days where you had to keep communications between the ship and nuclear guided misslie) Yes it makes sense that the last command is what it follows until the next command is ack.

Dave C.,

I did delete the engine and reloaded successfully! Now maybe the other issue with read button is low track signal. I'll need to read the section on reading track signal and post my findings.

Thanks to everyone who responed, very much appreciated!

Make sure you have correctly installed 22 uH chokes in any Lionel or ERR upgarded locomotives otherwise they will kill the DCS signal.

@Porschev posted:

Make sure you have correctly installed 22 uH chokes in any Lionel or ERR upgarded locomotives otherwise they will kill the DCS signal.

I will double check, I did the "upgrade" so long ago I cannot remember if the chokes came with kit and where they would go. However I have the original documentation and any parts that were not used in a separate container. So I should be able to check that out for sure.

I did have the tracks cleared of any lionel engines when I was having DCS issues with finding engine and doing a read. Thanks for the great suggestion when I do have both MTH and Lionel on the layout.

Ok so what I found was terrible DCS signal on the layout track. (3-5) were the numbers until the engine got close to the track with the actual feed wires, then signal went up to 8.

The test track did have signal of 10.

Also when I turned on my remote 'BAT' came up, which I assume is low battery alert and I changed the batteries.

So I will need to work on getting the DCS signal up to snuff on the layout before I continue doing any other work. Back to reading Barry's book. Not sure why the signal is not a 10 on the track with direct wiring. The TIU is a Rev. L and the output of the TIU goes to a relay board then to the track. I might try by-passing the relay and test the signal again.

My layout features pretty much violates all the rules of DCS. Common ground buss wiring and feeders in every section of track. Layout had been around for 15 years before DCS. After a months tweaking after the initial install it yields 10’s everywhere. Still if I was starting from scratch. I would follow the recommended practice with the paired wiring.
Not sure how you have the relay board wired. When I wanted to have tracks with on off capability. I pretty much wired as I normally would. Then just cut the center rail wire somewhere near where the toggle switch would reside and place the relay there.  This would not alter the direct run to the track from the terminal strip. The relays were just controlled by a 12v power supply that was already there for the Tortoise’s and lighting.

One thing DCS doesn’t like. Is splitting the signal more than once. You want your paired wires from the TIU to go to a terminal strip. From there they should only go to a section of isolated track or a block. Not to another strip and then split again. It’s pricey but the one MTH sells works well for this. Add one block at a time and keep checking your signal. The signal will only cover so much track before it sort of maxes out. They give you 4 channels to use. Use 3 and it’s nice to have one as spare where you can just switch wires over if needed. When the layout gets to large. There’s always Super TIU. But I agree. You should see a 10 on one block during testing if that’s all that’s powered up. You can see a few blips at times. I wouldn’t worry to much. My layout is all Gargraves flex. I can see 10’s in a 3 foot section but every now and then it may pop a bad number. In that case it could just be some crud on the track or something. What you want is consistency through each section.

Are your connections from the TIU to the distribution board tight ? I like using solder-type "gold" plated banana plugs. I dislike using the "screw" type.

What about the feeder connections from the board to the track - are they solid at the track ? Soldered ?

If the signal gets stronger as the engine gets nearer the feeder wire, it might mean the DCS signal is not propagating very well along the rest of the track rail. Are your track joint connections tight ? Is the track clean ?

How far apart are the track feeders ? Do you have enough ?   

When you hit the read button it puts all DCS engines into inactive state    They should be dead until you do a startup     Make sure you scroll all the way down on your remote into the inactive list   Highlight the one you want to startup and press the thumbwheel   It will move that engine into the active list   Then hit startup 

@Gerald Jackson posted:

Please purchase the DCS O Gauge Companion from the MTH website. I assume that the wires are minimum 16 gauge stranded (18 gauge produces the results that you are experiencing).      

Are you saying even the drops need to be 16 ga. ? I started using 18 ga. for the drops that go from terminal bd. to track ground and the same for hot wire from relay to track. Wire to relay is 16ga.

@bluelinec4 posted:

When you hit the read button it puts all DCS engines into inactive state    They should be dead until you do a startup     Make sure you scroll all the way down on your remote into the inactive list   Highlight the one you want to startup and press the thumbwheel   It will move that engine into the active list   Then hit startup

I did not realize read button put all DCS engines into inactive. I was under the impression it just read which engines were on the track receiving signal.

@Richie C. posted:

Are your connections from the TIU to the distribution board tight ? I like using solder-type "gold" plated banana plugs. I dislike using the "screw" type.

What about the feeder connections from the board to the track - are they solid at the track ? Soldered ?

If the signal gets stronger as the engine gets nearer the feeder wire, it might mean the DCS signal is not propagating very well along the rest of the track rail. Are your track joint connections tight ? Is the track clean ?

How far apart are the track feeders ? Do you have enough ? 

To answer your excellent questions. I have some expensive/high grade screw gold banana plugs. Screws and offset and 180 degrees opposite and have excellent conductivity.

Feeder connections are solid 14ga. from TIU to remote TB then 16ga. to relay (that controls block power) and 16ga. to track outside rail which the connections to the track are soldered.

Now you hit on some problems with track connections, cleanliness of track. This was only a temporary hook up to get an idea on how layout will look and if my design on paper matches my design in my head. So connections were not a priority. That said, the best signal I can get with engine on the track with soldered connections that I just cleaned is between 7 and 9 (not a 10 to be found) It is a 37" gargraves flex track. I'll double check the connections to the TB and relay. Also relay contacts. I may temp. by-pass the relay just to eliminate that as a suspect.

Thanks for your help.

@Aegis21 posted:

I did not realize read button put all DCS engines into inactive. I was under the impression it just read which engines were on the track receiving signal.

The read button looks at your equipment   For an engine to be active after the Read it needs to be powered on and started up otherwise it is considered inactive and it is moved to the inactive list   If the engine is just sitting on the track not started up its inactive   If you didnt hot startup button and have the engine idling with sounds on its inactive

@Dave_C posted:

One thing DCS doesn’t like. Is splitting the signal more than once. You want your paired wires from the TIU to go to a terminal strip. From there they should only go to a section of isolated track or a block. Not to another strip and then split again. It’s pricey but the one MTH sells works well for this. Add one block at a time and keep checking your signal. The signal will only cover so much track before it sort of maxes out. They give you 4 channels to use. Use 3 and it’s nice to have one as spare where you can just switch wires over if needed. When the layout gets to large. There’s always Super TIU. But I agree. You should see a 10 on one block during testing if that’s all that’s powered up. You can see a few blips at times. I wouldn’t worry to much. My layout is all Gargraves flex. I can see 10’s in a 3 foot section but every now and then it may pop a bad number. In that case it could just be some crud on the track or something. What you want is consistency through each section.

Hi Dave, First thanks for responding. The output of my TIU goes to a distribution TB and that connection is less than 12" (more like 3"-4") each TIU output supplying one district TB. Then it splits to three remote TB's that are separate power blocks. (star wiring method, I think) From each of those are the connections to the tracks made, comm is direct and hot is relay switched.

I am using three TIU outputs, one for each district (3 districts and one unused) Var1 is district 1, fixed 1 is District 2, fixed 2 is District 3, with the forth as a spare. I also have the Watch Dog boxes attached to the distribution terminal Bd. near the TIU's. Maybe I did not make those correctly. Those I'll disconnect when I do the relay by-pass to see if the relay is causing and issue. I won't need the WD with a direct connection to TIU.

Thanks

@Porschev posted:

Make sure you have correctly installed 22 uH chokes in any Lionel or ERR upgarded locomotives otherwise they will kill the DCS signal.

Well I am 90% sure I did not install 22 uH chokes in my Lionel ERR upgrade. I am going by the directions I followed for installing the AC commander board and rail sounds board. They only had me put on the motor two capacitors. So where do the chokes go and where can I buy them?

@bluelinec4 posted:

The read button looks at your equipment   For an engine to be active after the Read it needs to be powered on and started up otherwise it is considered inactive and it is moved to the inactive list   If the engine is just sitting on the track not started up its inactive   If you didnt hot startup button and have the engine idling with sounds on its inactive

Got it now! Thanks for the clarity.

@bluelinec4 posted:

The read button looks at your equipment   For an engine to be active after the Read it needs to be powered on and started up otherwise it is considered inactive and it is moved to the inactive list   If the engine is just sitting on the track not started up its inactive   If you didnt hot startup button and have the engine idling with sounds on its inactive

Actually, any locomotive that is powered up and seen by the TIU will be left on the active list.  I just tried it to make sure my memory was correct.  Both the one that was started and the one that was just powered up remained on the active list.  The engines not powered up were indeed moved to the inactive list.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, any locomotive that is powered up and seen by the TIU will be left on the active list.  I just tried it to make sure my memory was correct.  Both the one that was started and the one that was just powered up remained on the active list.  The engines not powered up were indeed moved to the inactive list.

Ok what is the difference of one started and one just powered up? I am getting lost in the terminology, being a total newbie to modern day model train technology.

@Aegis21 posted:

Ok what is the difference of one started and one just powered up? I am getting lost in the terminology, being a total newbie to modern day model train technology.

Started= has track power- but also is started from a DCS command making sounds, lights on, smoke- moving or not moving.

Powered- track is powered up

The logic behind the above statements and why it matters:

While DCS is a signal on the track, it is bi-directional meaning the TIU talks to the loco, and the loco talks back to the TIU.

An engine must have track power- to be able to respond and reply back to a DCS command back to the TIU.

An unpowered engine (engine sitting on track that is not powered at the moment) cannot reply- to a read request- hence is "not on the track" hence is deemed "inactive".

An engine powered on the track, but not started, sitting idle, no lights, no sounds- still is possible to respond to DCS commands because it does have track power.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Started= has track power- but also is started from a DCS command making sounds, lights on, smoke- moving or not moving.

Powered- track is powered up

Makes sense!

@Vernon Barry posted:

The logic behind the above statements and why it matters:

While DCS is a signal on the track, it is bi-directional meaning the TIU talks to the loco, and the loco talks back to the TIU.

An engine must have track power- to be able to respond and reply back to a DCS command back to the TIU.

An unpowered engine (engine sitting on track that is not powered at the moment) cannot reply- to a read request- hence is "not on the track" hence is deemed "inactive".

An engine powered on the track, but not started, sitting idle, no lights, no sounds- still is possible to respond to DCS commands because it does have track power.

These are concepts that I have read about, however haven't remembered. The last one does take me aback a little, as I am used to seeing some "life" a light or sound when a track is powered. Obviously old old school...

@Aegis21 posted:

These are concepts that I have read about, however haven't remembered. The last one does take me aback a little, as I am used to seeing some "life" a light or sound when a track is powered. Obviously old old school...

Yep, old school, at least when it comes to DCS.  Most DCS engines are totally dark and silent until started.  Some Lionel engines are as well, but many newer Legacy engines drive the number boards directly from track power.  In a way I like that for the reason you state, I can see the track is powered.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, old school, at least when it comes to DCS.  Most DCS engines are totally dark and silent until started.  Some Lionel engines are as well, but many newer Legacy engines drive the number boards directly from track power.  In a way I like that for the reason you state, I can see the track is powered.

Yes an indication track is powered by using number board is what I guess I was and still look for...   How foolish lol

John, I took the liberty of using one of your photos to show your setup from your build thread.

It looks like you have 4 outputs at the terminal strip for each of your 3 channels. For testing purposes. Can you easily run the paired wiring from your piece of Gargraves track. Direct to this terminal and by pass your relay board. Your track should yield a 10.  If not try another channel or put a lightbulb across the terminals and see if the Magic Bulb makes any difference. Shouldn’t be any issues if it’s a new one. Then try adding a few more sections and keep checking your signal. After you have a few sections hooked up and you are seeing 10’s. Then go back and hook up your relay board and check again. I think it’s best to hook DCS in it’s simplest form and then add to it.
As far as hookups to the tracks. I’ve seen alligator clips used for testing and work fine or just solder the wire to the track pins. I think it’s beneficial also to jumper the outside rails. Soldered wires work best or shove a spade connector into the Gargraves track web. You will need needle nose pliers to push it in. Should sort of snap in with a click. I use non insulated ones. I also use 14 gauge wire. 16 is probably fine for this.  I just find it easier to push these in place and then solder the spade to the rail and the wire to the spade. Just frees up your hands while soldering.

Just curious on how your relays are wired. I’m guessing your turning them on with a separate DC power supply through a toggle switch and what’s going to the center rail is going through the contacts.

@Dave_C posted:

John, I took the liberty of using one of your photos to show your setup from your build thread.

It looks like you have 4 outputs at the terminal strip for each of your 3 channels. For testing purposes. Can you easily run the paired wiring from your piece of Gargraves track. Direct to this terminal and by pass your relay board. Your track should yield a 10.  If not try another channel or put a lightbulb across the terminals and see if the Magic Bulb makes any difference. Shouldn’t be any issues if it’s a new one. Then try adding a few more sections and keep checking your signal. After you have a few sections hooked up and you are seeing 10’s. Then go back and hook up your relay board and check again. I think it’s best to hook DCS in it’s simplest form and then add to it.

yes I will do exactly that, running a line from District 1 to TB 1 and connect the drops from the track directly to TB 1 thus eliminating the relay as an issue.

As far as hookups to the tracks. I’ve seen alligator clips used for testing and work fine or just solder the wire to the track pins. I think it’s beneficial also to jumper the outside rails. Soldered wires work best or shove a spade connector into the Gargraves track web. You will need needle nose pliers to push it in. Should sort of snap in with a click. I use non insulated ones. I also use 14 gauge wire. 16 is probably fine for this.  I just find it easier to push these in place and then solder the spade to the rail and the wire to the spade. Just frees up your hands while soldering. Interesting way to connect the wire to the tracks. I will certainly give this a try.

Just curious on how your relays are wired. I’m guessing your turning them on with a separate DC power supply through a toggle switch and what’s going to the center rail is going through the contacts. Relay is wired wiper to TB hot and normally open contact goes to middle rail. The relay coil gets dc from onboard ac to dc supply, to power a micro controller that controls relay. Although the ac supply  is from the the block terminal board. This is I believe isolated but when I by-pass the relay I will also remove the micro controller board (with ac to dc power supply) on it to confirm it is not also an issue.

One other thought, since that pic was taken I have wired led's across each district to indicate power is on that terminal strip for each district. Maybe and issue also!

I’m far from an electronic whiz at these things. If I understand your post. Your using the AC track power at the terminal strip that also is carrying the DCS signal to turn your relays off and on.
Are you turning them on and off using an AIU ?   Usually when using a relay you opt for a separate DC power supply. I know the first rule is to not rely on track power to power your turnouts if it’s also carrying the signal.

Hi Dave,

I am using track power to power a dc supply which feeds the micro controller that energizes the relay coil. The AIU Does control the relay by way of a micro controller piggybacked onto the AIU. The micro controller monitors the AIU for a relay activation and over the air (no wires) sends that signal to the remote micro that controls the relay for block power. I could run a seperate bus line to send ac around the layout independant of the TIU for such uses. I know I have made it more complicated than it needed to be.

Try the magic light bulb trick. Put an 18v light across the track at the feed point. Improves track signal. Alternate to Magic light bulb is the susan deats filter.

On my layout, The TIU flashed the internal LED three times. The Remote read TIU as one. When I got them both synced to one, DCS ran much better.

John, I would go from your terminal strip to one piece of Gargraves track. No relays or anything else in the equation. See what you get for a signal. You should get a 10. You are pretty much just creating a programming track which usually yields one. Now add a couple more sections. You will have a 9 foot block and if you are still seeing 10’s. Now go back and put your relay board and test again. If the signal goes south. You will have to address the relay board. Not sure if a separate power supply to the board will fix it.  I showed a picture of your setup. Unless you are stacking wires on your terminal strip. It looks like you only have 9 wires to use from your TIU channels. I’m not seeing the relays outputs. Once you split the wire coming out of one of your TIU’s  channel the 3 times. You can’t split it again after comes out of your relay.
My own layout was pretty much non functional with DCS. I ran TMCC but it was basically wired like a conventional layout. Lots of toggle switches, track signals using ac relays, and even relay banks to allow for a more automatic running if guests were over. So when I hooked the DCS up initially. It somehow allowed me to add an engine. After I got it moving I had very little control of it. Did a signal test and got one 8 and a bunch of 2’s and 3’s. My first quest was to run a paired wire over to a turntable whisker track. Nothing else was powered. I saw a 10 so I now knew one existed. I focused on one block at a time. In a months time I got all the gremlins out of it. Had 10’s everywhere. Pretty much just removed all the complicated wiring.

What I learned was at least on my layout. DCS likes simplicity. Wires from the TIU outs to a terminal strip. Even though my layout was wired totally wrong with common ground wiring. It worked. I think the 12 gauge buss and 14 gauge feeders may help. I did a new section and did adopt the paired wiring with good results.

@gftiv posted:

Try the magic light bulb trick. Put an 18v light across the track at the feed point. Improves track signal. Alternate to Magic light bulb is the susan deats filter.

On my layout, The TIU flashed the internal LED three times. The Remote read TIU as one. When I got them both synced to one, DCS ran much better.

I do not have an 18volt light bulb on hand. I will look into procuring one to try, although my TIU's are both

rev. L , which I read somewhere the bulb has little impact. Although it is certainly an option I will look into.

Hello All,

First thanks for all the help, education and general information concerning my issue and DCS in general. I pretty much followed what Dace C. suggested. I left all the track connected about 35 feet. (yes I know that will not be the length of my block on the layout) That will setup a worse case test,  signal at zero feet, 3 feet, 6 feet and so on. I did take off the wire from the track to the relay and directly hooked it up on the supply terminal board. At the same time I disconnected the relay board from the supply terminal board. Turn on system, it found the engine, it was on the track that has the feeder wires soldered on, so basically a test track position. Viola! 10's on dcs signal. ok now I started engine down the track at speed number 3 and it went registering 10's all along the way till the end, 35 feet away. There were one or two 7's and 8's, but I can believe that was dirt on the track. Next step was to re-power the relay board. Retest results were 3's, 4's and 5's even at track zero! So next step was to bring in another transformer to power the relay board and connect the center rail feed wire through the relay as designed. Re-test showed again all 10's for 35 feet!  So I need to run a separate  pair of 19 volt ac as accessory/relay board power bus.

Here are some pics: Control panel DCS

Relay section of remote control module

Power supply and micro controller power supply is lower unit in this pic and micro controller is upper unit with antenna on printed circuit board.

Again THANKS for all the help. I will now have to do things in steps and test after each step. Like adding more blocks, switches, accessories etc.

  John, glad you got it working.  The track signal test is probably the most important feature of the system. I don’t know what you would do without it.  Now that you have one section working as it should. It’s easier to proceed forward with the rest. Anyone building a layout and incorporating it should constantly test as you add. When your signal goes south. You can always revert back to the last thing you changed or added. Those with existing layouts it’s a little harder. You just have to take small steps focusing on one loop or one block at a time.

@Dave_C posted:

  John, glad you got it working.  The track signal test is probably the most important feature of the system. I don’t know what you would do without it.  Now that you have one section working as it should. It’s easier to proceed forward with the rest. Anyone building a layout and incorporating it should constantly test as you add. When your signal goes south. You can always revert back to the last thing you changed or added. Those with existing layouts it’s a little harder. You just have to take small steps focusing on one loop or one block at a time.

Excellent advice which I will adhere to! Again Thanks Dave!

Are you saying even the drops need to be 16 ga. ? I started using 18 ga. for the drops that go from terminal bd. to track ground and the same for hot wire from relay to track. Wire to relay is 16ga.

Drops should be 16 gauge.

Are you saying even the drops need to be 16 ga. ? I started using 18 ga. for the drops that go from terminal bd. to track ground and the same for hot wire from relay to track. Wire to relay is 16ga.

Drops should be 16 gauge.