@Gerald Jackson posted:Are you saying even the drops need to be 16 ga. ? I started using 18 ga. for the drops that go from terminal bd. to track ground and the same for hot wire from relay to track. Wire to relay is 16ga.
Drops should be 16 gauge.
Not really. I used #14 for my main power feeds and #18 for the track drops. IMO, even #18 is more than sufficient for the short drops from the track. There's no reason to get carried away.
Holy DCS Batman! This is getting extremely old extremely fast. So the system is as follows: DCS was the only player on the layout. District one with 70 feet of track only one connection to TIU, ran signal test with MTH engine and got all 10's except for one spot which dropped to a 7 and an 8. So being happy with that performance for two days I would run that engine up and down the track and check signal which always resulted in getting 10's. (I cleaned the offending track) Now things get interesting. I hook up Lionel Legacy unit to system with the proper cables from MTH Serial cable from Legacy to TIU and one wire from legacy to third rail. Then put on track the ERR upgraded engine to run with the legacy controller. Power it all up, light comes on the engine and I throttle up and the engine moves forward a bit, sputters then stops with light out. Meanwhile down track a MTH engine starts some station chatter and comes to life. ???? Shutting power off and then back on still does not get the lionel engine light to come on. Yes I moved it to another section of track just to be sure to have clean track under it. So I take the engine back to the single test track I have set up with TMCC cab1 and engine functions as it should. Ok so I maybe dealing with one system killing the other. Getting back to the main layout, I disconnect the lionel legacy connections and check out the MTH Engine still on the layout track. It gives no response. I delete it from the handheld and try to enter it back in and of course it gives no engines found. Hmmm.... So I take the other handheld, turn it on and it works the engine forward/reverse shutdown/start up. I even check track signal and get 10's So I change batteries in the other remote and with the engine started up I try to add it to the remote. No Engine Found 
huh! I can control it with the other remote, have signal of 10 and it can't find it. So I foolishly power the remote that has control and delete the engine from it so I can see if the problem is only the other remote (lets call problem remote remote#2 and functioning remote remote#1) So I delete that engine from list and try to re-enter it and No Engine Found.... Put another MTH engine on track it both remotes can control it. I don' dare remove it from the remotes at this point. Best guess on my part is the Lionel test messed up the MTH engine on track. Mind you I was not programming that engine, just trying to control it. Things I can do are : reload remotes and see if I have control of the "faulty" engine (RS-3 Erie Lackawana 1057) re-load engine, (not sure what files to re-load on it)
This is frustrating as I have been wiring things by the book, so to speak, and it appears every step is like running through a molasses pond in January. No doubt I am doing things incorrectly, and want to find out what my bad practices are and stop them now. It seems this happened before on one of the MTH engines. Is this common? Help !!
@Aegis21 posted:Now things get interesting. I hook up Lionel Legacy unit to system with the proper cables from MTH Serial cable from Legacy to TIU and one wire from legacy to third rail. Then put on track the ERR upgraded engine to run with the legacy controller. Power it all up, light comes on the engine and I throttle up and the engine moves forward a bit, sputters then stops with light out. Meanwhile down track a MTH engine starts some station chatter and comes to life. ???? Shutting power off and then back on still does not get the lionel engine light to come on. Yes I moved it to another section of track just to be sure to have clean track under it. So I take the engine back to the single test track I have set up with TMCC cab1 and engine functions as it should.
This sounds more like a power event than anything else.
What appears to have happened- the ERR engine overloaded or shorted your power supply. That power then returned and the DCS engine on the same power district/channel then missed the watchdog and started up in conventional.
This same power event then might have killed or damaged DCS signal.
Actually, the more I read this, your mainline track sounds like it has some problems. one possible answer- I don't know your track feed or your track system of joints (rail joints, pins or joiners) but that sure sounded like dead sections of track power. So badly so, as the engine rolled- one section lost power and another section the MTH train was on ALSO power cycled sans watchdog signal. Things that could allow that is a track system depending heavily on the rail joints to carry the power with few feeders and loose track joints. As the train rolls and draws current, it also can ever so slightly move or shift the rail and thus the loose joints at the ends of the track spark and go high resistance.
That doesn't sound good. Why does the TMCC engine work fine on test track? And the MTH engine worked fine with one control but not the other and neither can find that engine on track. Puzzling to me.
@Aegis21 posted:That doesn't sound good. Why does the TMCC engine work fine on test track? And the MTH engine worked fine with one control but not the other and neither can find that engine on track. Puzzling to me.
@Vernon Barry posted:Actually, the more I read this, your mainline track sounds like it has some problems. one possible answer- I don't know your track feed or your track system of joints (rail joints, pins or joiners) but that sure sounded like dead sections of track power. So badly so, as the engine rolled- one section lost power and another section the MTH train was on ALSO power cycled sans watchdog signal. Things that could allow that is a track system depending heavily on the rail joints to carry the power with few feeders and loose track joints. As the train rolls and draws current, it also can ever so slightly move or shift the rail and thus the loose joints at the ends of the track spark and go high resistance.
Again, I would run under conventional first, ensure some of this is not track power and joints and feeders FIRST, and then go down the path of trying to troubleshoot DCS and TMCC/Legacy.
@Vernon Barry posted:Again, I would run under conventional first, ensure some of this is not track power and joints and feeders FIRST, and then go down the path of trying to troubleshoot DCS and TMCC/Legacy.
That sounds reasonable to make sure connections are solid. I will get an engine that is just conventional and run it back and forth and see how it performs. Measure track voltage and farthest points and note the drops.
Todays configuration of track is basically one long separate track that gave DCS signal of 10's all along the entire track. When running just the DCS engine I have had no problems (once that track was isolated like it is presently)
I understand the extra load with the old lionel engine (1958 Berkshire 736 steam converted with an ERR Ac Commander) could be the load that broke the connections between tracks. There is always the track (37" gargraves) that has the feeder wire soldered onto it that could eliminate track resistance as a culprit. I could put the engine on that track and do the same test without another engine on the layout. Does that sound like a good step?
Also, gargraves track, the outside rails are isolated from each other natively. So does your track feeders connect to BOTH outside rails of the 3 Rail track?
Only one outside rail is connected to common.
@Aegis21 posted:Only one outside rail is connected to common.
That would be top of the list things to fix.
I know you may not understand, but that perfectly explains most of these issues.
#1 many MTH engines that have 2/3 rail capability may not pick up on all wheels/axle sets, so being a one side outer rail connected track, that can wreak havoc with track signal and power problems.
#2 Same problem contributes to any engine losing power- example the Lionel.
I've been following this thread with interest.....I have a question about connecting the two outside rails.....Does this have any affect (positive or negative) on running TMCC/Legacy Lionel engines on the same layout?
@LT1Poncho posted:I've been following this thread with interest.....I have a question about connecting the two outside rails.....Does this have any affect (positive or negative) on running TMCC/Legacy Lionel engines on the same layout?
Positive effect. Both for power of the engine, but also shaping of the RF TMCC radio signal. Both rails being connected changes the way the radio signal lobes around the track. Think like it being a giant foam pool noodle.
Again, the RF signal would center differently around one rail VS 2 rails.
DCS signal is embedded in the power, it is not a radio signal. However, as stated, 2 rails are better than one for pickups and NOT all axles and wheels on trains (especially traction tire wheels) are making contact all the time. So 2 rails is better than 1 rail.
@Vernon Barry posted:Positive effect. Both for power of the engine, but also shaping of the RF TMCC radio signal. Both rails being connected changes the way the radio signal lobes around the track. Think like it being a giant foam pool noodle.
Again, the RF signal would center differently around one rail VS 2 rails.
Actually, that's not really accurate. TMCC depends on the physical connection to the rail to bring the signal directly to the TMCC receiver, the antenna is the one that you have to consider RF characteristics for.
The late Dale Manquen describes it much better than I ever would, so I've attached a printout of the web page from his old site that discusses the TMCC signals. I'd link to the site, but it has long since disappeared from the web.
Again, just some basic o-scale stuff. Oldschool tubular track with metal ties- both outside rails are shorted together on every piece of track. Only the center rail was typically insulated at each tie.
Fastrack- most pieces contain a shorting bus bar that connects the 2 outer rails much like old tubular.
Atlas, Ross, and Gargraves- natively, few if any tracks natively come with any form of electrical connection between the outer 2 rails. It's up to you the owner and installer to wire them together when doing your power drops.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Actually, that's not really accurate. TMCC depends on the physical connection to the rail to bring the signal directly to the TMCC receiver, the antenna is the one that you have to consider RF characteristics for.
The late Dale Manquen describes it much better than I ever would, so I've attached a printout of the web page from his old site that discusses the TMCC signals. I'd link to the site, but it has long since disappeared from the web.
Dale Manquen's TMCC Signal Basics.pdf
Fair enough and thanks for that great info.
Again, IMO, there definitely seemed to be a power issue on this track and most certainly both outside rails not tied to "common" I feel greatly contributes to the problems as described in this topic.
@Vernon Barry posted:Again, IMO, there definitely seemed to be a power issue on this track and most certainly both outside rails not tied to "common" I feel greatly contributes to the problems as described in this topic.
No disagreement with the power issue, I think it's far better to have both rails common unless you're driving insulated rail signals along that stretch.
I’m also in the camp of both outside rails connected from my own experiences early on with DCS. I know many drive signals and crossing gates using the isolated rail to trigger them. There are other ways of accomplishing this. As cool as these features look to guests. It’s not to cool if the engine can’t get there because it stalls or you can’t communicate with it.
@Vernon Barry posted:That would be top of the list things to fix.
I know you may not understand, but that perfectly explains most of these issues.
#1 many MTH engines that have 2/3 rail capability may not pick up on all wheels/axle sets, so being a one side outer rail connected track, that can wreak havoc with track signal and power problems.
#2 Same problem contributes to any engine losing power- example the Lionel.
I do understand the concept of more connections the better they are and less packets lost. Not being familiar with the newer engines, (having traction tires insulating the wheels from the track) and not seeing the recommendation for connecting two outer rails together mentioned in MTH documentation, it was never considered. I was going to use the third rail (not connected to common) as an occupancy detection switch. (maybe a current sense needs to be re-investigated). Guess that needs to be re-thunk. Thanks for all the help, it is truly needed and appreciated. This morning I did get my remotes reloaded from a backup file. So those recognize the engines. My one RS-3 Eire Lackawanna engine that could not be found was flashed and sound files loaded. I am hoping it will stay functioning. I will get sometime tomorrow to start testing the track and connections.
John, glad to see your at least back to the success of a few days ago.
My layout features 4 mainline blocks. I used the outside rail to trigger 14v AC relays to provide signals. The contacts provided the proper voltage to the bulbs. Worked flawlessly for years till DCS arrived. I was an early user. DCS was just hooked to the mainline for a trial run. MTH engines were pretty much were non functional. After a few evenings working on one block. I finally disconnected the signal in one. Then hooked the feeder wires to the common ground seeing they are already there. They might as well terminate somewhere. Instant 10. I figured out the signal just wasn’t going to play well with that relay. Not knowing a workaround I just left the signals dormant. I added some Z Stuff products and they work as advertised but not as good as what I had.
I recently added crossbucks at a grade crossing. Went with. www.azatrax.com. I used the IR Products that project up between the ties. All works as advertised with some of the best instructions I’ve seen. At some point I plan to do my track signals over using their products.
@Dave_C posted:John, glad to see your at least back to the success of a few days ago.
My layout features 4 mainline blocks. I used the outside rail to trigger 14v AC relays to provide signals. The contacts provided the proper voltage to the bulbs. Worked flawlessly for years till DCS arrived. I was an early user. DCS was just hooked to the mainline for a trial run. MTH engines were pretty much were non functional. After a few evenings working on one block. I finally disconnected the signal in one. Then hooked the feeder wires to the common ground seeing they are already there. They might as well terminate somewhere. Instant 10. I figured out the signal just wasn’t going to play well with that relay. Not knowing a workaround I just left the signals dormant. I added some Z Stuff products and they work as advertised but not as good as what I had.
I recently added crossbucks at a grade crossing. Went with. www.azatrax.com. I used the IR Products that project up between the ties. All works as advertised with some of the best instructions I’ve seen. At some point I plan to do my track signals over using their products.
First a thanks to all who have contributed their valuable information to this thread.( Porschev, Gerald Jackson, Richie C., bluelinec4, Vernon Barry, gunrunnerJohn, Dave C., the late Dale Manquen) THANKS!
Hi Dave C., Yes it is good to get back to square one where things were functioning. Not sure the MTH RS-3 is all back to snuff, (it started up with sounds from a shutdown when it received a throttle command to move, I was under the impression it would start moving without sounds) but I am hoping that it is either a fluke or my mis-information.
So yesterday was encouraging, at least both MTH engines worked and worked well through the entire sections of track that I have then on and powered. (again roughly > 70 feet of track with one feeder. Checked DCS signals all through that section of trck and again almost all 10's.
My thoughts on tying the two outer rails together are as follows:
1) In general it is good practice to connect the rails, as more surface area is available for electrical connection, reducing resistance.
2) This is actually a way to increase track to engine conductivity (or reducing track to engine resistance). It is different than increasing track conductivity between sections of track. Although it has that inherent side effect, there are other more efficient means to reduce resistance between track sections. (i.e. solder rails from one track to the next)
3) And because I am unaware of a better method of increasing track to engine continuity, it maybe my only solution for Lionel engines.
Which to me on the surface is counter intuitive. My lionel engines do not have rubber/plastic traction tires, old school magna-traction gave the increase in friction/traction. But my experiments proved otherwise, as the MTH engines can run on the outer rail being dead where the lionel cannot. Now the other piece of information to this puzzle is the Lionel engines may have magna-traction, they also have OLD PULLMOR motors drawing possibly more current, there by needing less resistance or increased continuity. So with this information I may solder my tracks together and see if that solves my dilemma or I will have to bow to the current gods and connect the two outside rails together.
A little more forward motion this morning - hooked up lionel cab-1 tmcc on one piece of test track and two engines with ERR upgrades ran perfectly! A 1962 Lionel Berkshire 736 and a 1963 (i believe) Illinois Central 2363 with ERR upgrades installed two years ago. The Illinois central was much easier than the Berkshire, the Berkshire needed some shell renovations. With that positive experience I connected the legacy Cab-2 to that same test track (after removing the TMCC) and same positive results. I liked the brake feature on the legacy, first time using it!
So next task is to start soldering some track together and redo these tests.
John, at some point you are going to add turnouts into the equation. If you are using Ross turnouts. You will probably want to have wire connections to every isolated rail for good performance. If you are using the Ross ready switches. This is already done for you. Unless you decide to go with insulating pins the outside rails are pretty much going to connect on their own throughout the layout.
@Dave_C posted:John, at some point you are going to add turnouts into the equation. If you are using Ross turnouts. You will probably want to have wire connections to every isolated rail for good performance. If you are using the Ross ready switches. This is already done for you. Unless you decide to go with insulating pins the outside rails are pretty much going to connect on their own throughout the layout.
Hi Dave,
I am using Ross turnouts and actually one is in the middle of the 70 foot track section. It is the Ross double crossover. I haven't checked if it was ross ready or I need to wire it as you stated. Yes the turnouts throw a wrench in the works. Thanks for another consideration. 
I need all the help I can get.
The double crossover is not to bad to do. You may need a relay to change the polarity of the 4 isolated rails around the diamond. Other than that. Pretty straight forward from what I remember. It’s a lot easier to solder all your wires at the workbench. I attached a wire to every isolated rail. Not the switch points. You may not need all of them. But they are there just in case. The turnouts I just used 18 gauge wire. The newer locos with multiple pickup rollers and steamers featuring axle wipers work really well at finding a rail somewhere with power.
If you have Ross ready switches. They should have jumper bars across the rails. Not sure about feeder wires and I’m guessing switch motors already installed.
@Dave_C posted:The double crossover is not to bad to do. You may need a relay to change the polarity of the 4 isolated rails around the diamond. Other than that. Pretty straight forward from what I remember. It’s a lot easier to solder all your wires at the workbench. I attached a wire to every isolated rail. Not the switch points. You may not need all of them. But they are there just in case. The turnouts I just used 18 gauge wire. The newer locos with multiple pickup rollers and steamers featuring axle wipers work really well at finding a rail somewhere with power.
If you have Ross ready switches. They should have jumper bars across the rails. Not sure about feeder wires and I’m guessing switch motors already installed.
Thanks Dave for the encouragement. I did some continuity checks on my track and low and behold the two outside rails are tied together via the Ross double cross over. So my loss of power to the Lionel engines won't be resolved by connecting the outside rails. That may need to be done, however there are other issues I need to resolve first. Number one is to reduce the resistance from track to track. Not sure on the best course of action with Gargraves track. Guessing the pins need to have a solid contact to the rail for the length of the pin. I have a lot of used track which I am debating if I should bite the bullet and replace with new track. Or is there a pair of pliers designed to compress the rail so the pin fits tight along its entire length. The other option is to solder rail joiners to each track which hinders revising the track layout. I'll search around the forum for helpful info that others have relayed fixing similar issues.
The good news is the Lionel Legacy controls both ERR upgraded engines perfectly on the test track. Test track only has one outside rail to common, two outside rails are isolated. I am contemplating connecting them together just because it wouldn't hurt anything and may prevent spikes. Which brings me to another point, I foolishly "threw" some tracks together so a train could run for the grand kids to see. That is what started the whole debacle. After Christmas I ran with the "track" working and got into all the foolishness a fool could get into. So now I will stop the foolishness and get back to work. I am liking the general layout and will finish laying out the track. I will tackle my electrical issues in parallel and update accordingly. Again Thanks to all that have responded to these posts, you have been a major help. I may not wanted to hear some of the good advice, however I am grateful fot it! Again Thanks John
I have skimmed through your posts about the issues you have been having. I think your issues might be related to a similar issue I was having where the Lionel Legacy signal was interfering with the DCS signal. I posted about it here:
https://ogrforum.com/...-dcs-signal-problems
If this is not related to your issue than you can ignore my comments.
My issue can be summarized by the following. When I would run DCS only everything ran great, I would get DCS signals everywhere of 9 or 10 with no issues of finding or loading engines. As soon as I turned on the Lionel Legacy base (even with no Lionel engines on the track) the DCS signal would drop to 7 to 9 with Proto 3 engines and as low as 3 to 4 with Proto 2 engines. As well, as the TIU not recognizing engines that were on the track.
This is a known issue some people have had and others have not. I believe @gunrunnerjohn dealt with this on a club layout and figured out some work around.
I figured out some work arounds that work for me and would be glad to share them and my experiences if you're interested. Again if this is not related to your issues than you can ignore.
Hope this helps!
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