debating 2 Northern 4-8-4s

Lionel American Flyer Northern locos. The Motor's worm gear clearance is so tight that it is affecting the slow speed performance. The locos surges when started to overcome the drag. No TMCC is conventional.

Also silence the annoying mechanical chuff generator.

Well, I don't have a Flyonel Northern, but I do have 2 AM Northerns with scale wheels (no sound.)  However, I do have some AC/sound Pacific's.

However, Sound with AM steam is very basic.  You get a whistle (I don't remember if there's a bell) and some kind of random steam exhaust sound.  Chuffing is created by the smoke piston at twice per driver revolution.

The AM Northern is a solid, well constructed locomotive and like traditional Flyer, most of the detail is cast on.  It is a smooth runner, thanks to it's drive where all the drivers are geared and not reliant on the side rods to transmit motion.  It's essentially a big 4-axle power truck.  I've had no problems with mine.

The AM Northerns are conventional control only.  AC versions have a three position electronic reverse unit in the tender.

Pulling power: My Northerns will slip slightly on my somewhat roller-coaster scale code 100 track pulling seven AM Budd cars.  The Hirail/Flyer versions have traction tires on one pair of drivers, so they should have no trouble with 4-5 passenger cars.  I have seen the Hirail/flyer versions run on R20 curves with no issues other than such a large locomotive on sharp curves.

Rusty

I have a reasonable collection of American Flyer Trains, I don't have one of Lionel's FEF although I know that engine has rail sounds that is activated by the transformer control. The engine and Tender shell's were from new molds or refurbished molds that have more cast on details to reduce cost much more then the original Gilbert version. The operation appears to be adequate but it appears to be more toy like in appearance then the one by Gilbert. This S  Gauge Engine will pull many passenger cars with no problem because it has traction tires but the can motor might be limited in long hard climes up steep grades.  

The American Models FEF has greater add on Details and closer to S Gauge qualities in appearance. The sounds are mechanical like the American Flyer FEF by Gilbert but the Whistle and Bell are activated by button controls and are realistic recorded sounds. The operation of these engines is smooth and steady. Maybe not as fast as the original FEF's because of lower gearing but more prototypical of the real locomotive. Smoke and Choo-Choo are also more prototypical chugs but are manufactured the same as Gilbert's version. . This version has great pulling power and can handle long train loads but with in reason because it also has a can motor. The manufacture has said in his manual that a long train of AF Aluminum Passenger cars or AM streamline passenger cars might be too much for 1 can motor to pull for a long time without lubrication or rest. He recommends pulling long trains like that with two motor engines or two single motor engines.

There you have some more facts, but the ultimate decision will be up to you. I hope I have given you some help.

Don 

The Lionel/Flyer 4-8-4 is virtually identical to the old Gilbert version, except the detail is a little crisper.

The thing to remember is the Flyer 4-8-4 is a model of the UP FEF-1, which didn't have a whole lot of external piping.

The detail on the Flyer model may be a little bulky, but it is a good representation of the FEF-1.

Rusty

Thanks for the quick responses everyone -- i found all your comments very helpful.   I think I'm leaning towards the AM version, especially after hearing about the jerky performance problems with the AF due to the tight gear tolerances and confirmation that the AF is not a TMCC engine.

Regarding the aftermarket sound option for the AM unit, how hard is it to install one of those?

Rusty Traque,

Thanks for the photos.  I have both the Flyonel and AM Northerns, but I still gotta love those signature Gilbert whitewalls!

Mark

The ERR sound is a piece of cake to install, there is the nervous part of this if you have not worked with electronic parts before, but that goes away. The importance of using an anti-static mat cannot be over emphasized, about $25.00 at an electronics store, but the install is really not difficult to do and you will have plenty room in that tender. Ken at Electric Railroad is a tremendous help and always ready with tips. I have contacted him by phone and email and he has always been ready and willing to help.

Ray

Plus, the AM Northern cleans up real nicely with a little paint and some decals for the number boxes:

Rusty

I have both the Flyonel and AM Northern engines.  I changed out the Flyonel smoke unit and put in a Gilbert smoke unit.  Now it sounds just like the original. This is an easy improvement process.

I use Gilbert track on my layout and have no problems with either engine.  I do like the sound system of the Flyonel better than AM.  Both are good runners.

As usual, a great photo...it seems S scale is large enough to get that "ground level" effect when taking pictures...very nice indeed.

Mark in Oregon

As delivered the AM Northern has a sort of cheesy looking headlight (true at least for my first run unit). What sort of modification are guys using to improve the looks of the headlight?

My model is an early run that had the light bulb "sausage" hanging out.  I used an MV lens (can't tell you which one off hand) with a hole drilled in the "reflector" to accept a small modified LED.  I also modified the headlight (it's plastic) opening to reduce the thickness of the rim and accept the lens.

I also have a late run Northern with the funky orange colored LED (lights white, though) waiting to get on the priority list.

Rusty

Just for conversation regarding the headlight on the AM Northern.

The first run with the light bulb:

Same locomotive modified with an MV lens w/LED (left) and the latest run w/ AM's LED(right):

The "orange" LED lights up with a white light and looks just fine, but look pretty bad when it's off.

Rusty

Rusty,

The update of my AM Northern is also pretty far down on my to-do list. If you perform the headlight update on your second unit please make a note of the MV lens you use (to save us lazy guys the research time ). Maybe take a few how-to pics - your updated unit looks great! Thanks for the inspiration.

Craig

This site might be helpful. Scroll down toward the bottom for a sizing chart.

http://www.hubhobbyshop.com/hint32.htm

Well, i could not decide between the two so i decided to go for both since the Lionel AF UP model has a coal tender and the AM in Rock Island has an oil tender...

I purchased the Lionel first as I found a good local deal.  

First impressions of the Lionel unit:

I think they did a great job on the detail and the rail sounds are quite good.

Now for the bad:

Initial performance was not good.   It seems to take a lot of power to get this unit moving and it seemed to slow down in various parts of my track which other units sail through.   It is jerky at slow speeds and the headlight seems to flicker even though track was just cleaned and the Gilbert AF caboose is steady throughout.  I oiled all the axles, but that did not seem to change anything.

It also has the annoying mechanical squeak vs a chuff sound.

So now the debate, do i return it and move on?  Or do I go down the path of silencing the mechanical chuff unit, try to file the motor mount to get more clearance for the gears (i think that's the problem), and fix the light (Lionel has a service bulletin for that on their website)?

tough to come home with a new locomotive and feel disappointed.    I really liked the rail sounds and wanted it to perform well too, but alas that's not the case.  Does it need more break in time?   This unit is new, but it has been sitting on a shelf for 7-8 years.

Decision time....

It is to bad that these Northerns did get out to people with the problems they have but the repairs are not that difficult. I did both of these repairs, my biggest problem was being nervous pulling this $300.00 apart to do the repairs. The baffle replacement is not to bad, the hard part is pulling out the original, it is really tight, just take your time. Adjusting the motor mount is not a bad job either although it is something that Lionel should have made right. You may also find that you will have to reattach the power pickup wires to the trailing truck if the engine runs fine for a while and then begins stalling on curves.

See Carl Tuvesons' site for guidance on these repairs.

Ray

Thanks for the encouragement Ray.  After getting over my initial disappointment, I've decided to at least make some attempts to improve the performance.  I guess that's why they call this a hobby -- you have to get your hands dirty and it is more about enjoying the journey than the final destination.

One quick question, how  does one remove the body from the tender to install the battery?   The manual shows all the screws, but the two rear ones appear to be right under the trucks.   With the coupler on, there is no way to pivot the trucks to gain access to the screws.  I checked to see if i could easily remove the coupler, but it looks like they crimped it on and did not use screws.

The two rear screws for the tender shell are removable. Rotate the truck and access them via the cutouts in the truck stamping. I use a 'screw grabber' to start these screws during reassembly.

I have two of the L-AF Northerns (a black UP and a gray UP). This engine was a real pain to review when I did so for the S Gaugian because of the several issues. After one substitutes the modified smoke piston unit - no sound (available from Lionel for $22), remove the voltage regulator and change the smoke element (as recommended by Tuveson) and adjusts the run-in of the worm gear, these engines turn into nice pieces. Not surprisingly, they look and sound good pulling traditional Gilbert or Lionel-AF traditional rolling stock, or the newer UP heavyweights from a half decade ago. I council patience. The final destination is worth the trip.

Bob