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I m sure this has been covered............  I have ordered two items from two different seller (both OGR forum advertisers). Both have been defective on arrival, and required returning them for repair at my cost. Is it reasonable, or is there a way that I can specify in and order that I want them checked (put on a track and see if they work) before shipping them.  By the time you pay $15 each for original shipping and the same going back, you have a $60 additional cost for the actual purchase of the train item. ??

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The cost of shipping a defective item back is part of the trade-off for getting it via mail order.  I've seen ads where PayPal will cover the return shipping if you use PP for the payment, but have not tried it and don't know how (or how well) it works.  (If anyone has feedback about this, please speak up.)

For a defective item, seller should not charge you to ship the repaired/replacement back to you.

PayPal is excellent - their policy is “ifits not as described”, its the sellers fault. If its damaged in shipping - its the seller who’s responsible. Buyer gets his money back. The seller has to make it right and get compensation if its insured.

I’ve had it both ways as a selller and buyer.

question = if you go to the local store(Hobby Shop) and the item is defective and has to be returned, do you think the seller is responsible for your gas to bring it back? Nope, its your responsibility.

I bought 300$ worth of items from Dallee Electronics and returned a 60$  item because I couldn't figure out how to hook it up. It was not defective. They still charged me a "restocking" fee because it was after the 15 day return limit. $300dollars I spent and they still took more for returning a not used in original package item. I'll go elsewhere next time.

Geojr posted:

PayPal is excellent - their policy is “ifits not as described”, its the sellers fault. If its damaged in shipping - its the seller who’s responsible. Buyer gets his money back. The seller has to make it right and get compensation if its insured.

I’ve had it both ways as a selller and buyer.

question = if you go to the local store(Hobby Shop) and the item is defective and has to be returned, do you think the seller is responsible for your gas to bring it back? Nope, its your responsibility.

Don't get me wrong I like Pay Pal also.Problem ISSSSSSSSS...everyone demands Friends and Family! OH... VOID- not so excellent! Nick

rockstars1989 posted:
Geojr posted:

PayPal is excellent - their policy is “ifits not as described”, its the sellers fault. If its damaged in shipping - its the seller who’s responsible. Buyer gets his money back. The seller has to make it right and get compensation if its insured.

I’ve had it both ways as a selller and buyer.

question = if you go to the local store(Hobby Shop) and the item is defective and has to be returned, do you think the seller is responsible for your gas to bring it back? Nope, its your responsibility.

Don't get me wrong I like Pay Pal also.Problem ISSSSSSSSS...everyone demands Friends and Family! OH... VOID- not so excellent! Nick

When they "demand" Friends and Family, I still just pay the normal way for a product and add 3% unannounced. That makes them whole, and protects me. No one has complained.

If an item is defective upon arrival, I too, think the seller should be responsible for shipping costs back to him.  If the item is brand new, then some sellers really don't want it sent to them, but would rather you deal with the manufacturer, as the warranty "should" cover any shipping costs.  However, a reputable dealer will go the extra mile and deal with the return.  Take Home Depot and Lowes for instance.  Both of them take anything back !   

As for restocking fees, I think they're a scam.  

rockstars1989 posted:

Any seller is going to expect the buyer to pay shipping....

An exaggeration, rockstar1989, any defective item returned to Amazon is at their expense - NOT THE BUYER'S! A buyer will have the full purchase price returned to them with no amount whatsoever deducted for return shipping. IMO, that's as it should be, if a seller doesn't have full faith and confidence in the integrity of a product they sell then maybe they should think very carefully before offering that product for sale!!!

Mallard4468 posted:

The cost of shipping a defective item back is part of the trade-off for getting it via mail order.

You've obviously never had a defective product come to you from Amazon, Mallard4468, for if you did, you would never make that statement since Amazon incurs full cost of shipping a defective item back to them.

Dan Padova posted:

If an item is defective upon arrival, I too, think the seller should be responsible for shipping costs back to him.  If the item is brand new, then some sellers really don't want it sent to them, but would rather you deal with the manufacturer, as the warranty "should" cover any shipping costs.  However, a reputable dealer will go the extra mile and deal with the return.  Take Home Depot and Lowes for instance.  Both of them take anything back !   

As for restocking fees, I think they're a scam.  

Lionel warranty use to have you pay shipping to send the item to them, they would not charge when they sent back to you. Now i bought two new engines from a major dealer at york. One was defective and i was charged shipping to and from this dealer. Is buying at york new from a major dealer different. Whatever. I don’t buy from that dealer any longer. And when I say major dealer he is

the biggest I believe.

There are so many variables to the OP’s question,  were these products new, sealed in the boxes? Does the seller have a policy in place that is set in stone for one to read? Did the product have a warranty explicit from the manufacturer, with detailed instructions on how to do a warranty claim? As the OP kinda answered his own question, ask before you buy......if you don’t like their policy, don’t buy from them.....if their policy for helping the customer is terrible , they will rot and wither on the vine.....customer service is everything these days, it separates the men from the boys......I just had a customer with a defective part on his car, his car broke down, I went and picked him up, got his car towed, replaced the part, and got him back on the road....I’ll deal with parts house on my loss, and get compensated. But I didn’t throw the customer under the bus....they know that and that’s why they come to me....customer service....know who your dealing with ......before you deal...............Pat

ogaugeguy posted:
Mallard4468 posted:

The cost of shipping a defective item back is part of the trade-off for getting it via mail order.

You've obviously never had a defective product come to you from Amazon, Mallard4468, for if you did, you would never make that statement since Amazon incurs full cost of shipping a defective item back to them.

Amazon is also a slightly larger business than any of the model train dealers and can therefore in a better position to absorb the shipping costs.

Rusty

Back in the late 90's I purchased a new Lionel girder bridge from a seller in Classic Toy Trains magazine. The underside of the metal plate had obvious paint adhesion issues at the factory. I emailed the folks at Lionel. They said ship it back (at my expense). This was a $12 item and I already paid postage to get it. I told the nice chap at Lionel I wasn't going to pay an additional $5.75 on top of what I paid already to get a NEW bridge. We went round and round on this issue. Finally he gave in and told me to send him a copy of the postage receipt after I shipped it and I did and I was reimbursed.

But what's wrong with this picture?

You, the purchaser agree to buy an item, be it a $900 locomotive, a $100 freight car or a $12 bridge. You should expect the item to be new, working correctly and have no issues, period. No exceptions, none.

Now, things do go wrong. Things get built wrong or are damaged before leaving the factory. The manufacturer should set things right, at no additional cost to the buyer. Postage isn't cheap these days and why should I have to pay an extra $25 plus for postage and insurance on top of the time to pack a non working loco and get it to the shipper when it was the manufacturer that screwed up?

Mediocrity is the new norm. Too many people are lacking a back bone these days.

Richard

 

LIONEL6457 posted:

"...Mediocrity is the new norm. Too many people are lacking a back bone these days."

Richard

Amen! So very, very true for the majority of consumers unlike the majority of manufacturers and sellers who are unyielding in their protracted mindset of who should bear the burden of a bungled and botched product!

It’s all about the economics of it and remember “the customer is always right”. You better have a good product or build in the cost of a defective one. If you don’t do either one, you might as well stay home - someone else will or already has.

 I always give my sales force a chance to resolve any customer issues. If it cannot be resolved to the customers satisfaction, the issue comes to me. My philosophy is “if it comes to me, its free”. That’s how I treat my customers. I sure would be like to be treated the same way.

I bought a used (from a doner unit, tested) power board for a 2010 Samsung 55 inch TV from a seller on Amazon.  It did not work and gave  half a back lighted picture.  Contacted seller and he said to return it in original package and mark it "refused" and put in the mail box.  I did and got all my money including shipping back.  I guess the seller paid for shipping both ways.

I had to order a new or rebuilt power board for three times as much from Samsung with 1 yr warrentee.  It worked.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie

Several years ago I purchased Williams passenger cars (5) that were advertised in "like new" condition. When I received them there was damage to couplers and several trucks because of poor packing. The individual cars were able to move back and forth by about 1 and 1/2 inches. When I contacted the seller he was completely unhelpful and suggested I make the repairs myself. Through the use of liquid weld I fixed the loose items. Because I wasted too much time my ability to complain to EBay was lost.  As a result I will never buy rolling stock of any kind from EBay.

Another problem that was brought to my attention by a local dealer (Trainworld in Lynbrook, LI) was the lack of quality control that has resulted in too many new products not working out of the box (especially stuff made in China). The result is that they test every engine. I have bought several over the last couple of years and this testing gives me some kind of confidence.

I guess the moral is buyer beware.

John F

I base my service expectation on prevailing discount. If I'm paying MSRP or the high end of the prevailing discount range, I expect good QC, good packing, good service, and maybe even free shipping both ways. (Not all the forum's sponsors are so big I'd expect them to easily absorb my return shipping costs.) If it's the low end of the discount range, I expect low-end packing, service, etc.

 

bmoran4 posted:
rockstars1989 posted:
Geojr posted:

PayPal is excellent - their policy is “ifits not as described”, its the sellers fault. If its damaged in shipping - its the seller who’s responsible. Buyer gets his money back. The seller has to make it right and get compensation if its insured.

I’ve had it both ways as a selller and buyer.

question = if you go to the local store(Hobby Shop) and the item is defective and has to be returned, do you think the seller is responsible for your gas to bring it back? Nope, its your responsibility.

Don't get me wrong I like Pay Pal also.Problem ISSSSSSSSS...everyone demands Friends and Family! OH... VOID- not so excellent! Nick

When they "demand" Friends and Family, I still just pay the normal way for a product and add 3% unannounced. That makes them whole, and protects me. No one has complained.

As a seller, I would complain, as that is a unilateral change to the agreement you made with the seller. 

On the rare occasions when I sell an item on the forum, I don't want interference from a third party.  When an item leaves my hands, I'm done with it - that's why it's for sale.  I will describe things accurately, disclose any known defects, answer questions honestly, and pack it well.  If there's an issue, I will fairly and honestly do whatever is reasonable to make it right.  (Maybe that should be the forum's Code of Conduct.)  Unfortunately, some folks are unreasonable, and a few are dishonest.

That said, I like the Paypal and ebay protection when dealing with an unknown seller. 

LIONEL6457 posted:

...Things get built wrong or are damaged before leaving the factory. The manufacturer should set things right, at no additional cost to the buyer. Postage isn't cheap these days and why should I have to pay an extra $25 plus for postage and insurance on top of the time to pack a non working loco and get it to the shipper when it was the manufacturer that screwed up?

Mediocrity is the new norm. Too many people are lacking a back bone these days.

 

When the factory is on the other side of the planet, and they finished the run for that product months ago, there's no recourse with them.  One of my long-standing complaints is that the train companies (I can't call them "manufacturers") obtain spare parts by ordering extra finished units and cannibalizing them.  I don't understand why they don't order a bunch of spare parts when the item is built.

Re the comment about mediocrity and backbone, why do people continue to buy this junk when the issues are well documented?  I've seen other threads regarding a recently-shipped large locomotive that seems to have lots of issues, but people will still line up to plunk down $2k for the next one.   

$2k is more than I paid for my first three automobiles - combined - and I could still buy parts for them 50 years after they were built.  Wait a minute, that sounds like postwar Lionel!  

John F posted:

Several years ago I purchased Williams passenger cars (5) that were advertised in "like new" condition. When I received them there was damage to couplers and several trucks because of poor packing. The individual cars were able to move back and forth by about 1 and 1/2 inches. When I contacted the seller he was completely unhelpful and suggested I make the repairs myself. Through the use of liquid weld I fixed the loose items. Because I wasted too much time my ability to complain to EBay was lost.  As a result I will never buy rolling stock of any kind from EBay.

Another problem that was brought to my attention by a local dealer (Trainworld in Lynbrook, LI) was the lack of quality control that has resulted in too many new products not working out of the box (especially stuff made in China). The result is that they test every engine. I have bought several over the last couple of years and this testing gives me some kind of confidence.

I guess the moral is buyer beware.

John F

Sounds like you ordered from an Ebay seller.  The buyer has the upper hand on Ebay.  Believe me, I know from experience as a small time seller.  A couple of years ago, I sold some brand new track.  The buyer decided he was not happy with what he had purchased.  Bay sided with the buyer and I had to not only refund the purchase price and original shipping cost, but also pay for the buyer to ship it back to me.

Mike23 posted:

I bought 300$ worth of items from Dallee Electronics and returned a 60$  item because I couldn't figure out how to hook it up. It was not defective. They still charged me a "restocking" fee because it was after the 15 day return limit. $300dollars I spent and they still took more for returning a not used in original package item. I'll go elsewhere next time.

A lot of places charge restocking fees if the item is not broken, but rather for whatever reason is not good for you, that is pretty common. This is true especially of smaller vendors, we have gotten used to online stores like Zappos and Amazon where you can return items (Zappos pays for the shipping as well), but that isn't true across the board. Not saying that that kind of policy makes sense to me, the reason Zappos does that, for example, is that shoe and clothing sizes are vendor dependent, and since you can't try the shoes or clothing on, to have to pay return shipping would be a deterrent to shopping online....and with electronic do it yourself items, you are going to get people who buy it and then find out it isn't all that easy, or doesn't work with what they have.  The reason they do something like 'restocking fee after 15 days' is they don't want to deal with people who have an item they bought laying around, get around to actually trying it a year later, and find out it doesn't work, then want to return it, so that may make more sense to me than a flat 15% restocking fee. Lot of places if you explain the situation might be willing to waive the fee IME, but depends on the circumstances, too. 

Mike23 posted:

I bought 300$ worth of items from Dallee Electronics and returned a 60$  item because I couldn't figure out how to hook it up. It was not defective. They still charged me a "restocking" fee because it was after the 15 day return limit. $300dollars I spent and they still took more for returning a not used in original package item. I'll go elsewhere next time.

A lot of places charge restocking fees if the item is not broken, but rather for whatever reason is not good for you, that is pretty common. This is true especially of smaller vendors, we have gotten used to online stores like Zappos and Amazon where you can return items (Zappos pays for the shipping as well), but that isn't true across the board. Not saying that that kind of policy makes sense to me, the reason Zappos does that, for example, is that shoe and clothing sizes are vendor dependent, and since you can't try the shoes or clothing on, to have to pay return shipping would be a deterrent to shopping online....and with electronic do it yourself items, you are going to get people who buy it and then find out it isn't all that easy, or doesn't work with what they have.  The reason they do something like 'restocking fee after 15 days' is they don't want to deal with people who have an item they bought laying around, get around to actually trying it a year later, and find out it doesn't work, then want to return it, so that may make more sense to me than a flat 15% restocking fee. Lot of places if you explain the situation might be willing to waive the fee IME, but depends on the circumstances, too. 

harmonyards posted:

There are so many variables to the OP’s question,  were these products new, sealed in the boxes? Does the seller have a policy in place that is set in stone for one to read? Did the product have a warranty explicit from the manufacturer, with detailed instructions on how to do a warranty claim? As the OP kinda answered his own question, ask before you buy......if you don’t like their policy, don’t buy from them.....if their policy for helping the customer is terrible , they will rot and wither on the vine.....customer service is everything these days, it separates the men from the boys......I just had a customer with a defective part on his car, his car broke down, I went and picked him up, got his car towed, replaced the part, and got him back on the road....I’ll deal with parts house on my loss, and get compensated. But I didn’t throw the customer under the bus....they know that and that’s why they come to me....customer service....know who your dealing with ......before you deal...............Pat

Generally that is true, but the sad part is customer service these days often isn't a big priority. For the train manufacturers (Lionel, MTH, Atlast et al) there isn't that much competition, if you want a certain engine unless they all make a version, you are stuck with brand X, so basically you don't have a lot of recourse. Likewise, with other things, there just isn't a lot of competition. Whereas for example, if you don't like the way a car service center treats you, you have others you can go to (doesn't mean the owners necessarily understand that, the number of mechanics who gouge and rip off clients still boggles my mind).  Call for a problem with Home Depot, and you get some idiot at a call center in India saying they will give you a 25 buck gift certificate, rather then actually helping you, or you go through voice mail hell to get to someone. It is one of the casualties of the low price world, there was a time that Walmart took pride in its customer service in its stores, now they are basically cheap goods, you don't like it, don't shop here. 

 

 

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