Question.....
At the end of the steam era many railroads donated steam to many cities, towns, etc.. across the country. My question is this...why don't railroads do the same thing with diesels today? Why not donate a SP Tunnel Motor to the city of Sacramento or Fresno? Why not donate a CSX SD40-2 to the city of Brunswick, MD, etc...?
I'm just wondering why there isn't the same preservation spirit with diesels.
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Part of it is possibly that many cities that received steam locomotives for display soon realized that they require a lot of maintenance to keep them from looking like something out of a junk yard. Same idea would go for a diesel as well.
It should be easier to maintain a diesel loco, providing the cosmetic restoration was done with high-quality materials and proper procedures were taken for cleaning and painting.
Andrew
Railroads are a smaller, lower profile industry today. That being said, many railroads are retiring some of their diesels to established museums all over the country. The first SD7 made, SP 1518, and the first SD40-2, CNW 6847, were donated by the UP to Illinois Railway Museum.
The situtation is a little different these days. Instead of putting retired locomotives in city parks, they are going to railroad museums. Most railroads have been willing to donate equipment, including diesel locomotives to railroad museums. However, many museums are overwhelmed with the equipment they have collected and are having trouble taking on any more. There is another thread running about the Musuem at Portola, CA and how they are scraping locomotives to get thie collection down to something that can be managed. Many of the steam locomotives that went into city parks have since been removed and found ther way to museums. The Big Boy and SP 4449 are examples.
The Western Railway Musuem at Rio Vista, CA recently built a weather proof display building that will hold about 36 locomotives or cars. It cost two million dollars. Most museums do not have the resources that WRM has. Any railroad equipment that is going to be preserved must be housed in a building. Otherwise the weather and vandals will distroy it. While the railroad museums struggle with over collecting, successive generations of locomotives will be retired with selected examples begging for a place to be preserved. I do not not know how railway preservation will turn out, but I think there will be a lot less preserved than what has been already saved.
Railroads are a smaller, lower profile industry today. That being said, many railroads are retiring some of their diesels to established museums all over the country. The first SD7 made, SP 1518, and the first SD40-2, CNW 6847, were donated by the UP to Illinois Railway Museum.
IRM also has the first GP7, C&NW 1518.
Rusty
There is a nice LS&I ALCO and caboose in a waterfront park at Marquette, MI. Also an Illinois Gentral Geep at Homewood, IL. I'll look for photos at home tonight.
UP Centennial at Omaha as well.
Question.....
At the end of the steam era many railroads donated steam to many cities, towns, etc.. across the country. My question is this...why don't railroads do the same thing with diesels today? Why not donate a SP Tunnel Motor to the city of Sacramento or Fresno?
Because towns/cities don't want that "junk" anymore! It takes taxpayer money to maintaing it, plus the liability insurance costs to protect the town against legal action if someone gets hurt playing on or around that piece of "junk".
Also, unlike steam locomotives, many of the sub-components of a diesel electric unit can be salvaged, rebuilt/upgraded, and reused in other diesel electric units.
Unless the specific unit has some VERY historic significance, i.e. the FIRST GP7, FIRST SD7, FIRST GP30, FIRST SD40, etc., etc., etc., none of them are worth saving anyway.
That being said, many railroads are retiring some of their diesels to established museums all over the country.
It is my understanding that at least a few units currently in active freight service on CSX have been earmarked for preservation and are to be sent to the B&O Railroad Museum upon retirement from freight service.
Unless the specific unit has some VERY historic significance, i.e. the FIRST GP7, FIRST SD7, FIRST GP30, FIRST SD40, etc., etc., etc., none of them are worth saving anyway.
That works OK if your museum/tourist road is the one lucky enough to be in possession of the first one, but by that logic, we only need one F unit, one E unit, and so on. Why did Doyle bring up two Alco PAs for? Only should have brought up one. Could extend it out just a tiny bit further. After all, what does the city of Portland need two 4-8-4s for? There is a second SP one in St Louis, so why not cut up the extra 4-8-4? Heck, why does this country need more than one 4-8-4? Aren't they all alike anyways? 
No, we shouldn't save everything as there just isn't enough resources for that. But scrapping everything except for the first one doesn't make sense either.
Unfortunately many static displays in today's world become graffiti targets. A good display requires diligent ongoing maintenance, policing, commitment, funding etc. Otherwise it ends up being an eyesore and liability.
The problem with bringing up this topic is that many of the forum members hate diesels and only collect/operate steam locomotive models. Of course there are going to be people posting who are hostile to diesels.
Each railroad has specific milestone diesel-electric locomotives. One or two of each diesel type from each railroad can be preserved if done with some planning. The maintenance would not be high, because they do not has the extremely complicated surfaces of a steam locomotive. If they leave and restore the diesel engine and generator it can be used to provide electrical power when there is a need. A steam locomotive can never be used to directly make electricity.
Andrew
The problem with bringing up this topic is that many of the forum members hate diesels and only collect/operate steam locomotive models. Of course there are going to be people posting who are hostile to diesels.
No, it is just simple realty that towns & cities just do NOT want potential future eye sores in any of their parks! Museums are a whole different story.
Each railroad has specific milestone diesel-electric locomotives. One or two of each diesel type from each railroad can be preserved if done with some planning. The maintenance would not be high, because they do not has the extremely complicated surfaces of a steam locomotive.
You have no idea, do you? You think the "extremely complicated surfaces" of a 16 cylinder diesel engine are simpler than a steam locomotive? The diesels where MUCH more reliable than steam locomotives, and certainly didn't need to "go into the roundhouse" at least ever week,,,,,but the diesel is a LOT more complicated that a steam locomotive.
If they leave and restore the diesel engine and generator it can be used to provide electrical power when there is a need. A steam locomotive can never be used to directly make electricity.
Sure don't know how you came up with THAT idea. The electrical power for traction on a diesel electric locomotive is Direct Current, NOT Alternating Current at 60 hertz as used in the U.S.A.. Even the current "modern" AC locomotives do NOT generate the same AC at 60 hertz as you have in your home.
A steam locomotive boiler, however can be, and has been, hooked up to steam powered electric generating station and provide steam for months on end.
Andrew
This is getting away from the original topic, but ... your typical second-generation diesel-electric locomotive generates AC power from the main alternator, before it is rectified to DC power for DC traction motors. It is possible to tap the AC and set the engine RPM to generate 60Hz power (but not at full rated power) and this has sometimes done to provide emergency power for communities. I don't remember the details of voltage output and transformer requirements. Related info:
http://www.railroad.net/forums....php?f=6&t=65143
F40PH locomotives (the conventional ones, not the stretch jobs with separate HEP) were equipped to produce 480 volt three phase with the main traction alternator when running in "standby" mode. This required extra AC connections on the AR10 traction alternator between the stator windings and the rectifier banks, in addition to the DC normal traction current connections at the rectifiers.
But to suggest that a display locomotive could be used for standby power seems basically impractical unless someone sets up a program for regular maintenance ... there are more practical ways to provide standby power than with an obsolete locomotive. The older first-generation diesel-electric locomotives generate DC power only.
Can we keep these discussions friendly?
In an Issue of Trains magazine they showed the Canadian National using one of their locomotives as an emergency generator during a winter power outage. Was that a prank article in the middle of winter?
The surfaces of the diesel engines are enclosed in sheet metal. They are protected from the elements behind locking doors. The enclosed diesel engines do not need to be repainted every other summer because paint is fading and chipping.
Andrew
I recall that in 1980, Grand Island Nebraska was hit by a freak storm with multiple tornadoes and power outages. Union Pacific loaned a locomotive to supply emergency power, probably an SD40-2. A special adjustment had to be made to the governor to set the RPM for 60Hz output. I think it's 720RPM to get 60Hz from the 10-pole AR10 alternator.
A Google search will bring up other cases of locomotives used for emergency power.
In front of the Schenectady Museum (now called Mi Sci) in Schenectady NY
Jim
In an Issue of Trains magazine they showed the Canadian National using one of their locomotives as an emergency generator during a winter power outage. Was that a prank article in the middle of winter?
Andrew
There is no doubt that later model EMD diesel electric locomotives (after 1968) can be, and have been, used in emergencies to provide AC power for hump yards, etc.. In fact EMD even provided an extensive Modification Recommendation procedure on what materials would be required, and a step by step process for converting a unit to AC 60 hertz power.
The down side was/is, it took about 2 to 4 electricians more than 8 hours to reconnect everything, hook up a reasonably effective voltage regulator, and then have a Machinist re set the engine governor. Thus, it was/is MUCH more involved than simply resetting the engine governor.
Lastly, you don't really believe that ANY diesel electric unit that would be placed in some park would be complete enough to accomplish such "emergency power generation", do you?
One of the great losses of the 20th Century was the D&H PAs going to Mexico where they were trashed. Those beautiful diesels should have been saved by the National Railroad Museum or at the least as park engines.
Second generation and subsequent diesels are generally "not exciting to view;" Seen one, seen most all! Steam engines on the other hand are fascinating things to see, and they built modern America.
One of the great losses of the 20th Century was the D&H PAs going to Mexico where they were trashed. Those beautiful diesels should have been saved by the National Railroad Museum or at the least as park engines.
Doyle McCormack's "NKP 190" is one of those PA's.
Another is being restored as Santa Fe 59L
Rusty
One of the great losses of the 20th Century was the D&H PAs going to Mexico where they were trashed. Those beautiful diesels should have been saved by the National Railroad Museum or at the least as park engines.
Doyle McCormack's "NKP 190" is one of those PA's.
Another is being restored as Santa Fe 59L
Rusty
Plus, at least one more of those "former D&H" PA units is COMPLETELY intact, and possibly even functional, in one of the railroad "museums" in Mexico.
Actually there are two PA's in Mexico at the museum. One in NdeM blue and the second one in an Espee inspired Daylight paint scheme. IIRC both were operable when placed in the museum.
Greg
7048's cab number font is not quite right, altho this may have been correccted by now. In the photo above she looks like an N&W #'d unit ! In the years now far removed, when the Lockhart's ran the little concession down below, the 1361 was set up with speakers in her cab. The usual stuff coming out of the K4 was no longer stack talk, but German beer music !!! Speakers placed in 7048 could play 567 sounds or mebby some classic '50s music, to go with her finest hour.
I wish Southern Pacific would have donated one of their Trainmasters to the city of San Francisco. They had the biggest fleet and used them for years on the commute runs. Don
The whole Train Master affair is almost unbelievable failure, especially after Trains Magazine published a thinly disguised warning back in the summer of '73. Espee had two units cut down for brake sled use at Colton. One was actually finished, AFAIK. neither unit had to be cut down to perform those duties, and one, or both could have been saved as static displays. Personal non-intervention killed these units, just like so many others. The real tragedy is further east with N&W / NS in the early '80s. Both 3592 (Wab) and N&W 173 were intact in 1980, when we visited the area. They could have been slugged without destroying the basic unit, if indeed, they needed to be slugged at all by that date ! Next thing you know... WHAMMO...
they're dead ! Could this have been prevented? Yes. AFAIK, a couple of the slugs still remain, but it will take a miracle to get one rebuilt with it's original upper structure, just to be a display piece. Latest Diesel disaster: Espee 4450 was cut up...see the other thread on this debacle. Waaay too bad, the money from the scrapping is all to soon spent on hot-dogs and French fries, but the chooch is gone forever! Lesson: just because your favorite chooch is in a museum, doesn't make it safe, secure, or anything else. Find myself wondering when Strasburg will cut up GG1 #4800 to pay for a paint job on Thomas the Tank engine !!!!!! Want to see a Train Master....Quebec is it...eh !
Ultimately, it is the owning railroad's decision as to whether a locomotive goes for scrap or is saved. The railroad is under no obligation to sell, donate or display any of their power that has outlived its usefulness.
The railroads probably get a fair amount of "you guys ought to save..." type of letters or emails.
It take a fair amount of serious planning and negotiation to save a locomotive from the torch. The group approaching the railroad had better have the appearance of some measure of professionalism and organization and not come off as a bunch of engineer hat wearing railfoams.
Some railroads are willing to work with an organized group, others are not and as I've stated many times, the situation can change suddenly (either way) with a change in management.
BTW, as far as I'm aware, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania owns the 4800, not Strasburg.
Rusty
jaygee, your right. I used to take my lunch when I was in the area and watch the FMs being turned on the turntable in the Bayshore yard. There I sat and ate with hundreds of feet of 16mm sound film in my trunk. Did I shoot one foot of film of them? No, I was a young news camera guy and figured they would always be around. There were so many of them. I kick myself every time I think of all those days watching the FMs. The original demo engine was one of them. Now the round house is almost gone.
Find myself wondering when Strasburg will cut up GG1 #4800 to pay for a paint job on Thomas the Tank engine !!!!!!
Yes...the language was rather figurative..but it got the point across. Glad to hear that Ol' Rivets is headed inside. She's been through enough in her long life. I DO intend that the mess with Espee 4450 becomes a wake up call to the faithful. Sure, there are plenty of idiot foamers out there...but there are also those of us who appreciate the history and excellence of machinery like PRR 4800 and the late SP 4450. I never had any warning of this impending disaster, so the point was, and is, better communication with those in a position to keep things from going off the deep end. It's been said that you can't save everything, but when that "something" is already in a museum or the equivalent..it's #@$%&*(!) staggering !!!!
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