I recently acquired a 237 and 239 for a younger relative. The 239 works fine, but the 237 does not. He asked me to fix it, but it is my first time working with a Scout motor, and I cannot remove the wheel sets to look inside. I cleaned the commuter and brushes, and the fingers and reverse drums, and as such am certain that the lack of running is internal, since there is not even a satisfying hum from the motor. How would I remove the wheels?
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The wheels can be removed with a wheel puller or using two screw drivers they can be pried off. When you split the case do it in a shoe box. If you need any parts I have a lot of NOS for these scouts. These scouts engine are challenging to get running much less getting put back together. I have several operational motors if you throw in the towel.
Also check that the pawl spring snaps back the moveable field.
I would not suggest the screwdriver method stated above. That's just asking for a broken plastic motor casing. Wheel puller.
I've been alternating between the screwdrivers and a bottle opener. I don't have a wheel puller. Any idea where I could get one, and how much they cost? The pawl does move the drums.
Just looked, and the pawl does move the stationary field. Is that supposed to happen?
I used the screwdriver method to remove wheels for many years before I obtained a wheel puller. And I used a vise to re-install them. I often ended up with wobbly wheels. Since I enjoy repairing trains, the best investment I ever made was buying a wheel puller and press outfit.
Here is an article by Toy Train Revue on Lionel Factory Service Station tools.
You can find wheel pullers on EBay. Unfortunately, Lionel has not offered their wheel puller in quite a few years. IMHO, the last one they offered works very well. (There are a number of variations). IMHO, it is greatly improved over the postwar ST-311 puller.
Timko makes a good wheel puller. I have several pullers made by third party vendors (other than Lionel). Of them, I think his is the best. They are not shown on his web site. If you are interested, you will have to contact him, and ask about them. Port lines has one (wheel puller #2) that looks very similar. LBR makes one (O-HDWP-1) too.
I don't have the Port lines or LBR one, so I cannot comment on how they compare to any other pullers.
If you are going to work on Scout motor units, be certain to read the Lionel service manual pages. If you follow their directions, it's fairly early and straightforward. Without them - not so much. Your 237 loco should be covered in the 1961 version of the instructions. I suggest reading both.
I have GReenburg's postwar manual, 7th edition. It would be in there I assume?
Most likely, I'd have to check.
I had a 235 scout engine that I gave up on and a few years later got a newer donor motor and changed it out to a 2-4-0 with a D.C. motor. The scout engines from the 1960's are super difficult to do more then changing the brushes on. The tenders for those engines are really nice but the engines are not that good.
I am using the tender from my 235 scout with a post war 2018 steam engine.
Lee Fritz
If you don't have a wheel puller the next best thing is use a small punch and hammer and gently tap out the axle on the non geared side of the wheel. A screwdriver risks breaking the cast in axle bearings on the brittle motor sides. The most common problem with the scout motor blocks is the rotating brush holders need to be oriented correctly. The one with the longer gears needs to be on the right side of the motor so the pawl can grab it and cycle to the next position. Also the upper and lower contacts need to be in alternate positions in relation to the drums. I other words on the upper contact, one contact needs to wipe on the metal part of the drum and the other side on the plastic part of the opposite drum. Same on the lower contact.
The 235 scout is a hard # to find!
Do it right and buy a wheel puller.
Chuck Sartor posted:If you don't have a wheel puller the next best thing is use a small punch and hammer and gently tap out the axle on the non geared side of the wheel. A screwdriver risks breaking the cast in axle bearings on the brittle motor sides. The most common problem with the scout motor blocks is the rotating brush holders need to be oriented correctly. The one with the longer gears needs to be on the right side of the motor so the pawl can grab it and cycle to the next position. Also the upper and lower contacts need to be in alternate positions in relation to the drums. I other words on the upper contact, one contact needs to wipe on the metal part of the drum and the other side on the plastic part of the opposite drum. Same on the lower contact.
I will have to check that later, as I don't believe I did check the orientation. They might both contact the same spring at the same time.
One last thing about Scout motors, they run HORRIBLE on modern electronic transformers. The motors will growl and reverse on their own. Use the original set transformer or a small to medium power postwar transformer.
I use an RW and a 1033, so I doubt that will be a problem.
I have some different Scout locos and have worked on some of the motors. The earlier versions with a smooth surface on the bottom of the motor case have a poor reputation and aren't worth trying to repair IMO. The later versions (including your #237 and #239) with ribbed surface on bottom of motor are improved versions with shaft bushings and oil wick for better durability.
If you can find the right kind of automotive battery terminal puller tool, some of these can have the jaws ground down to work as a wheel puller. There is an article about this somewhere, in a hobby magazine or maybe on internet.
It would help if you had some junk Scout motors for parts and reference. The reversing mechanism in the Scout motor is tricky to work on. If it doesn't work out right, it's a hassle to pull the wheels again to work on the motor.
The two-position reversing sometimes reverses spontaneously on track switches or other trackwork with less than perfect continuity. This becomes more of a possible problem if the loco has a traction tire. Some folks just lock out the reverse unit most or all of the time.
What I did on my last Scout repair: I substituted the simpler brush-holders from a forward-only Scout engine to avoid assembly complications with the flukey reversing mechanism. I also fixed the "moveable field" in place to make the motor quieter. I run that engine on its own loop-to-loop layout where it doesn't need to reverse.
The Scout motors can be frustrating to work on, the engines are cheap items, so I wouldn't put too much time into it or expect great results. Not really worth buying parts for. May be an interesting challenge if you like that sort of work - as I do sometimes.
Scout motors run smoother and with better low-speed control on DC track power, if you don't have whistle tenders involved.
Here is a picture following what Chuck said about the brush holder orientation. In addition the springs have a front and back, the tab goes towards the motor.
I caught the bit about the springs fortunately, will have to check drums later.
Drums were maligned. Do not know if that was the only issue, but it was an issue.
I find that taking a few minutes, and carefully cleaning the pickup rollers makes a world of difference in the operation of Scouts and other engines that have those hollow roller pickups.
I use QTips moistened with mineral spirits. I stick an extra one in the hollow portion to help hold the roller in an "up" position. the QTip also helps to keep it from rotating too freely.
Chuck Sartor posted:The 235 scout is a hard # to find!
Based on several listed on eBay in the past few months, that seems no longer to be the case. One sold yesterday for $86, with the seller claiming it was super rare! (his punctuation). May be the purported estates of the oldest collectors hitting the market.
What, me worry?
Scout locos of that type are common as dirt. The different cab numbers are a superficial detail. Some had a version of "Magnetraction" and some had smoke units and there was a variety of different tenders used. Ebay prices are often crazy or just fake sales.
Turned out to just be the drum issue. Opened the working one today as a precaution, looks like I'll need to get new brushes SOON.
Scout locos of that type are common as dirt. The different cab numbers are a superficial detail. Some had a version of "Magnetraction" and some had smoke units and there was a variety of different tenders used. Ebay prices are often crazy or just fake sales.
Cab numbers may be s superficial detail to operators. They aren't to many collectors. Some of the locomotives are quite difficult to find, and command a few dollars. How many people have seen the paper labeled 1061?
The 1960's scouts were made with several different levels of magnetraction, tire traction, or no traction aids at all.
Never been much of a collector, so I wouldn't know. Been enjoying my projects though.
Been enjoying my projects though.
And that's what a hobby is all about.
I'll never understand why some people feel the need to rain on other people's parades.
C W Burfle posted:Cab numbers may be s superficial detail to operators. They aren't to many collectors. Some of the locomotives are quite difficult to find, and command a few dollars. How many people have seen the paper labeled 1061?
The 1960's scouts were made with several different levels of magnetraction, tire traction, or no traction aids at all.
I have a forward-only 1061 Scout which I repaired and it's a fun little engine that runs well. But I'll never understand why someone would pay a lot for the same basic engine just because it has a crappy paper label for the cab number!
The Scout smoke mechanisms actually work quite well. I retrofitted a smoke unit from a junk Scout into a #246, an easy job. I added extra weight to my #246 and it can pull a fairly good load even without traction tire or Magnetraction.
I'm curious about how well the Magnetraction works in some of the Scout locos.
Following info from 1961 Lionel service manual:
Loco year motor motor magnets smoke grades
==== ==== ===== ============= ===== ======
246 1959 246-200 1 low power no no earlier versions had 246-100 motor
245 1959 245-200 2 low power no yes earlier versions had 245-100 motor
236 1961 236-100 1 high power 236-50 yes comes with 233W whistle tender
233 1961 233-100 2 high power 233-50 yes
235 1961 236-100 1 high power no yes
(All of the above have reversing)
Note: None of locomotives in this series can be operated on Super-O trackage because the collector rollers will not reach the center rail of the track. (sez the Lionel service manual)
But I'll never understand why someone would pay a lot for the same basic engine just because it has a crappy paper label for the cab number!
Then I guess there is no point in trying to explain collecting. The topic has been covered here many times. Remember, there are plenty of people who don't understand why any adult would build a model railroad, or as they see it, play with toy trains.
One mans junk, another mans treasure. Probably why I like the scout motor now. Kinda wonder why nobody uses that reverse style anymore, I kinda like how simple it is.
El Classico posted:One mans junk, another mans treasure. Probably why I like the scout motor now. Kinda wonder why nobody uses that reverse style anymore, I kinda like how simple it is.
I wouldn't call the Scout reversing gizmo "simple" when it comes to repairing and reassembling the motor innards. The plastic-body motors are not designed for convenient servicing. It was designed more for cheap construction and throw-away economy. One quirk of Scout reversing is [sometimes?] the loco briefly moves in one direction before reversing - kind of like "taking slack" in the train automatically.
That said, I do have different Scout locos that run OK and I like pretty well. Old Scout locos can sometimes be obtained cheap if the value isn't artificially inflated by supposed "collector" value.
This 246 Scout was one of my first Postwar Lionel locos. It's a good performer, especially with extra weight added.
I recently acquired a 242 Scout that didn't run. I dismantled it with constant references to a Lionel Service Manual. It needed a thorough cleaning & lubrication. Runs good now. It has one traction tire and no magne-traction. Where did you add the extra weight to your 246 Scout to improve its performance?
One mans junk, another mans treasure. Probably why I like the scout motor now. Kinda wonder why nobody uses that reverse style anymore, I kinda like how simple it is.
The scout reversing mechanism is rather unreliable and trouble prone. I also find scout motors to be noisy. Unless I am testing one, I generally run them with the reversing action locked out. It's not unusual for them to get stuck in neutral, with the drums between forward and reverse. Flipping the reversing control switch on the top of the engine generally resolves the issue.
Old Scout locos can sometimes be obtained cheap if the value isn't artificially inflated by supposed "collector" value.
If it wasn't for "collector" value, Lionel would not have survived more than a couple of years into the 1970's and toy trains would be close to worthless today. Then there would not have been an MTH, Atlas, or any other significant companies making toy trains. If collecting is as dead as some folks claim around here, the manufacturers won't be far behind in closing up shop.
In my area, folks who price their goods reasonably at train shows sell. Folks who ask unreasonable prices don't. That's not to say that many prices haven't softened. Certainly they have. That is good for the hobby. Lower prices mean that more people will be able to afford to participate.
What's a fair price on a Scout? At the last Albany NY show, one of my friends sold a clean, properly running 239 locomotive, without a tender for $30. The 239 has a metal body, smoke and tire traction. Was that a good deal?
We got both of ours for $14, with a tender for the 237. I would say not bad since neither ran when we bought them. $15-20 is about what I see them sell for when they do sell here.
El Classico posted:We got both of ours for $14, with a tender for the 237. I would say not bad since neither ran when we bought them. $15-20 is about what I see them sell for when they do sell here.
That was a fair deal, hopefully without major body damage. I got a nice low-mileage #246 Scout with tender, three cars and caboose for $35 a few years ago, all in clean running condition. Later I learned these items matched the contents of a 1961 X-600 uncatalogued set made for Quaker Oats. A friend sold me a good smoke unit out of a junk #236 which fit right into my #246.
I fit extra weight into empty spaces in the boiler shell, also added some metal plates under the front cylinders to balance it out. I also have a 1061 and older 1020 Scout obtained in boxes of misc train "junk", which I repaired, also a newer 8040 version (different motor), and misc parts which might make another operable Scout some day.
A while back, I got an 1110 set, all component boxes, with a boxcar, gondola and a tank car, as well as a caboose, for $30. It runs quite well, if a bit noisy. The reverse unit works well, it gets some track time once in a while. Since I am considering a double loop layout with maybe an elevated loop as well, using mostly Marx stuff, this would fit in quite well. If someone says they are "junk" to you, ask them about their non running, electronic circuit board controlled locos. Everyone enjoys the hobby differently.
Also, I have a mechanism from a 2034, with a three position reverse unit for a reasonable price. Email in my profile.
Train Doctor posted:Also, I have a mechanism from a 2034, with a three position reverse unit for a reasonable price. Email in my profile.
I believe that would be a metal-frame motor, not the plastic-body motor? As I recall that was Lionel's "good" motor made as a direct replacement for the Scout plastic-body motors. In which case, that is a good item for someone who wants to repair and upgrade a Scout loco. My 1120 Scout (with die-cast body) has a good motor like that, apparently a replacement, not original.
Train Doctor posted:A while back, I got an 1110 set, all component boxes, with a boxcar, gondola and a tank car, as well as a caboose, for $30. It runs quite well, if a bit noisy. The reverse unit works well, it gets some track time once in a while. Since I am considering a double loop layout with maybe an elevated loop as well, using mostly Marx stuff, this would fit in quite well. If someone says they are "junk" to you, ask them about their non running, electronic circuit board controlled locos. Everyone enjoys the hobby differently.
when I was trying to get Dad's 6110 running, the local Lionel dealer told me it wasn't worth bothering with because they were junk. he got no more of my money, and then Dad found Brausser's. Dean laid his hands on it and it looked like new and runs great.
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