Do China Lionels Get ADEQUATE TESTING Before Packaging?

Hey Bob, long time no see!   Glad to see you are still here.

 

Re the testing, I don't believe they test every piece - probably random.  I just receive a Medal of Honor General that has to go to Lionel service with sound system problems.  So I wish they did test them all.

Yes, I am still here as I have been since Forum day one. After ten thousand posts on the early forum,I had little more to say. So, now I mostly read.

 

Bob C.

I think an occasional sample is tested and then.......nope. The matter of anything working becomes "good luck Chuck!" That and the distance along with shipping wear and tear do their toll.

 

I know that there is a warranty given on this stuff but I remember when a 'warranty" was really a "guarantee" and everything worked right out of the box.

Bob, Great to see you back! I to am back from an extended hiatus from the hobby.
To answer your question with a question...Is there any data to support that the Chinese know what they are building and what its purpose is?

I am also interested in the answer to this although I have a shrewd idea what it is.

 

A few months back - maybe it was at York or before - Lionel made some announcement about improving QC at the factory level including by more on site inspections of the product. However they never promised that each and every high end loco would be checked out/tested before leaving the factory. I don't believe any of the major manufacturers test run more than a small sample of any given production run because the cost/delay in doing so would have a significant effect on profit and cash flow.

 

I'd also be interested in knowing who does most of the design work before the logos go into production. After all, some of the reported issues with the VL BB - steam blowdown for example - may have more to do with how components were designed rather than how they were assembled. I assume that most of the electronic and smoke unit design is done in the USA as well as the sound.

Glad to see you active again snd hope all is well!

-Greg

I don't know about the rest of the product line but I listened to an interview with Mike Reagan.  In the interview he said how they had improved QC for the VL BB.  Each sub assembly was pre-tested before the entire loc was put together.  Once the loc was assembled it was tested again.  That sounds pretty good to me.

 

I can only assume that if that level of testing worked well for the production of the BB, then Lionel would implement that for the entire product line.

 

I can attest to my son's BB.  It was flawless out of the box.

6 Lionel employees spent the last few months of 2014 in China doing QC on the Big Boys.  While probably not the norm, I suspect the high notoriety of this project prompted this action.

 

That being said I would suspect there are QC measures in place but unless there is a Lionel rep there to verify some may just get pushed through.

 

In the end the only ones that can give you a 100% accurate answer is the folks from Lionel.  Mike Reagan has made some great headway on the production end of things.  It would be interesting to hear what the QC measures are outside of the Big Boy model.

Based on my out of box experiences with both Lionel and MTH recently.....they don't test:

 

1) Lionel Legacy WP: Traction tires too large, rubs against truck covers, tears them up, have to replace with MTH traction tires or grind the truck cover down.

2) Lionel TMCC PWC Texas Special A Unit: Truck fell off when lifting.

3)MTH PS3 LIRR MU set: Ran a track length then binds (replaced)

4)MTH PS3 LIRR MU set: Only one motor worked (replaced)

5) All Legacy and TMCC Lionel engines: Smoke Units are fickle

6) Lionel NYC S-1 Electric: Truck Covers strike Lionel Fastrack

 

Having said that, I still trust any Lionel Pullmor from any era to outlast a can motor, despite the performance differences.

 

 

I am very pleased with most of the Lionel Legacy engines I have purchased in the past.  The only issue I have is the QC on the VL Bigboy that I have just received.  That was with the smoke hatch in the front of the BB.  It was NOT attached.  Who ever was putting this together forgot to press fit the hinges together.  Seeing this my first reaction was OH NO!!! Now what?  I finally freed the hatch from below the boiler and checked to see there were no scratches the placed hatch between hinges and gently squeeze the hinge together.  There was one of the nubs broken on the lower hinge. For a $2k engine one would think all should be right before being shipped?   I will let Lionel know about this at YORK.  Also a little disappointed in the smoke out put on the blowdown effect.  Otherwise the VL BB is a great piece of engineering.

Just an FYI, mine came the same way with a nub broken off the hinge.....rather than pack it up and risk further damage, I just pressed fit it back into hinge and it is holding just fine.....

 

-Pete

From personal experience I would have to say no. My one subway set required 3 returns to the LHS (a Lionel repair station) for repairs.

 

I think the answer to this question is in the person of Scott Mann. Why do you think he spends so much time there.

in 1 word 'NO"

I've had a pretty good run for the last year or so.  I went through a period where everything I bought was faulty out of the box - 4 out of 5 engines IIRC.  A couple I fixed, and a couple went back; one couldn't even be replaced.  The last 4-5 I've bought have been solid performers since taking the wrappers off.  

 

It's not just model trains - QC is a challenge for any overseas manufacturing, and it's not always easy here in the states either.   In the last year I've had QC issues with a DVD player and a firearm.  The DVD player didn't bother me much, but firearms kind of need to work right every time 

Once I purchased a passenger car with a loose baggage car door inside the car. Opened it up and found 2 more inside!

 

 

Nothing says "We Care" better than sending a $2,000 engine in that condition.

Does someone at Lionel fire someone over this?

if myself or any of my past or present co-workers sent anything like that into a production environment over and over and over again until it was considered par for the course, we would be fired.

It seems to me that Lionel leaves the quality control to the buyer and the RA system.In other words the process which should take place at Lionel to check for and fix defects instead is placed on the back of the buyer using the RA return process.

 

Bob C.

Wonderful...I have not even opened my Lionel Red Birds set yet...

I can imagine what will happen when I open it.

 

 

Even if they did put every one on a track and powered it up, there would still be failures out of the box. Then what? Someone would still be p****d when they got a faulty product and would still badmouth Lionel for having poor QC.

 

The only way to know when a product is going to fail is to test it until it fails. Beyond that any product could fail at any moment for any reason, and it will likely p*** the buyer off when it fails.

 

How much QC is enough to satisfy a customer that all due diligence was done, even if the product is DOA out of the box?

 

IMHO, the companies know that the general public will never be convinced and never be satisfied that enough QC was performed when a new product arrives DOA. If people were reasonable, instead of getting p****d off and throwing temper tantrums when it happens, they would spend more on QC. But, they know they're going to get lumped whether they do or don't. It costs less if they don't, so they don't.

Your answer to the OP's question is: it depend.

 

If you have never had a problem with a new Lionel engine you will probably say YES.

 

However, if you had any problems at all, broken or missing part, malfunction of sound, smoke, lights or if it just plain would not run, then your answer would be NO.

 

Pun me in the second group, with a loud NO!

 

Going forward, if it ain't Atlas I don't want it.

 

Until you get an Atlas that's DOA... Then what?

I'd like to know why the "double standard" regarding O guage QC. Theres not a single manufacturer that has not delivered a defect item on a "somewhat" regular basis.

 

There have been posts regarding the issues from all brands on the forum.

 

 MTH who "tests" every loco here in the States, delivered the recent Premier dreyfuss with wiring shorting out on the shell. There was a post regarding this, no one even noticed.

 

I would think wiring shorting out is every bit as severe as a cracked bushing.

 

Folks are content to fix or have this issues fixed with "other brands", and there are rarely multiple page rants. When it comes to Lionel just "pile it on". If Sunset/3rd rail can deliver defective items out of only 200, certainly its tolerable? ( E7 issues) that Lionel deliver some defects out of a 2000.

 

Its not right, and no Lionel shouldn't get a "pass" on it, but why do all of the other brands?

Really?  Do any of you have manufacturing experience?  There is not a single product in the world that has a 100% part check.  I don't care what anyone says, it doesn't happen, at least not like you are saying you expect.  It's all a matter of statistics based on past performance of the product or similar products.  On products with a good track record, the percent number of the total made that get QA checked goes down.  On newer products, older products with a new vendor, and products that start showing a history of issues the percent number that get sent for QA check goes up.  It has nothing to do with where it is made, or by whom.  Yes, the VL BB is a high dollar item for it's field, but that doesn't mean everyone gets personally checked by one of the Lionel heads.  We don't know how many were made, and thus can't really see what kind of issue rate there is.  It's just those of us that have some issue with ours are the loudest.  I'm personally batting at 75% of all new Lionel products I buy coming to me either DOA or with some kind of issue.  Some I can live with or fix myself, and some I've had to send back to get replaced or repaired.  It's just luck of the draw, and I know it (Yes, I'm an unlucky guy.  It's my lot in life, but that's another story for another day.).  It's one thing to come here asking for help or going to Lionel with the problem, but it's completely different to come here and complain about something that very well could of happened in packing or shipping, something no QC would ever catch.

Maybe you aren't aware what QC checking and processes are involved with supplying to the military and NASA.

If and when that happens it will be a first.  If I have only one problem with "L"'s product I would have not responded to this thread.  

 

My satisfaction with Atlas is 100%.   Now, give me a reason to switch?

 

 

companies pay for Q/C.  if your company demands a lower failure rate then the price of each unit will go up to pay for the extra Q/C. it is a balancing act for the companies. lesser cost initially per unit will make you more money now, but in the long term you may loose customers. American car companies are still trying to come back from poor Q/C issues in the 80's. imports brought up Q/C and took over the market. learn from history. unless you are in it for the short term poor Q/C is not good. I think Lionel went for extra high Q/C for the big boy, let's see if it pays off

Very true, but to military/NASA/space specs and processes, the BB would be selling for at least $20,000(probably more), not $2000.

 

-Dave

 

Not crazy about the "China Lionels" reference at the outset here.  It is easy -- I've done it myself -- to bash the nationality as the reason for the issues but it is more likely a question of basic quality control and the cost to get it right. 

 

In terms of the damage some have seen on their locomotives, that is unfortunate.  That being said, I would be cautious about attributing that to QC, particularly for defects that appear physical in nature.  Those could have occurred during shipping, which is rough on model locomotives.  Given the nature of the hobby today and the erosion of the local hobby shop business, shipping damage is part of the gig today.  Personally, I am very hesitant to ship locomotives for this reason.

 

Finally, people talk about the cost of quality control but at the end of the day people do not pay for quality.  With all respect, look at the big boy price wars that went on here on the forum -- vendors undercutting each other by a few bucks to get the business.  On a $2k loco, such price differences are immaterial but they swayed buyers.  Are these same folks now going to claim, with a straight face, that if Lionel wanted to add hundreds of dollars to the cost of each locomotive to personally test each one for, say, 8 hours, that people wouldn't care or it wouldn't negatively impact sales?  Not realistic and not consistent with our society today.  Everyone says that they want quality but to take a completely different example they buy furniture at IKEA while Henkel Harris, Statton, and other great American firms that make a truly high quality product die on the vine, one after the other.  Most people today want the look of quality but they don't really want to pay for it.  This is why you see the proliferation of cheap junk and endless consumption, "paid for" on revolving charge accounts.

 

In the interim, the good news is that the big boy is a locomotive for adult collectors/operators who, if they are patient, will have things made right by Lionel.  I have been disappointed as well in the past but the people there are honest and the issues will be corrected.  I would contrast this to a less defensible situation where those kids we all desperately want to see join the hobby are upset/frustrated by a basic lack of quality control on, for example, a PE starter set. 

 

Just my .02.

 

There is no doubt that Lionel is honest and wiil do the right thing. That is not the issue.

 

Also the big boy is without doubt an engineering marvel,

 

 

Bob C.

Price, Delivery, Quality

 

Pick any two.

 

Even with mil-spec QC measures in place, failures still can (and do) occur.  Less failures, yes that's a given, but it doesn't eliminate them altogether.

 

Due diligence isn't perfect.

A bit on the touchy side are we not? No attempts were made to bash a nationality. The "China Lionels" reference was made to mean Lionel products made off shore. A statement like the above would also mean that a, "Made In China" label would bash a nationality. I guess those who insist on the, "Made In USA" label would be considered as bigots? Anyway, such statements are laughable. It's all about a giggle along the way.

 

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Bob C.  - glad to see that you are still with us.  I miss your numerous postings.  All the best from Calgary.

 

The last New Lionel engine I bought failed right in the hobby shop. They sold me a different model and sent the bad one back. That was 5 years ago.

 

Since then I only buy used from the forum or the -bay.

All of my recent Lionel purchases have had defects which required they be sent back right out of the box.  I kind of accepted this as the new normal.  After my last repair, of my son's Wabash Bluebird set - his first train, I was told in a note from Lionel that it's a cheap set and I can't expect to run like an expensive one.  The truck was binding and still is because they didn't fix it.  I fixed it myself by replacing it with an older one from a NYC FT set.  Needless to say, it's going to be a while before Lionel sees any more of my money and I think that's sad.  

I would like to think that is not Lionel's policy.

Not touchy at all -- just trying to insert some logic and reason into the discussion.  I stand corrected on that score.  One question that remains is if one were referring to the "china lionels" it implies that there are US lionels, and other than a few token pieces of rolling stock, Lionel has not made any trains in the US since I think the late 90s.  So what was the purpose of the characterization?  No worries on response -- I just think this place is better than that kind of tone. 

 

I'll also mark this down as the first time I've been accused of being PC.  When I show my wife she may pass out on the floor because she's known me for a long time. 

I may be the only one in this camp, but I have had very few problems with anything since getting back in the hobby 3-4 years ago. I have some Lionel, mostly MTH and both of their command control systems. I have no conventional, postwar or prewar. All these items have been purchased new in the last 3-4 years. I am quite happy with all the manufacturer's products that I have purchased so far.

 

I am sure I will have a problem with some new purchase sooner or later. I think it is to be somewhat expected, especially with how complicated our trains are becoming. All manufacturer's products have failures no matter what is done to try and prevent it, nothing is perfect.