Do New VL Challengers = Southern Pacific AC9 = NO LASHUP

Berkshire President posted:

 

What are the odds that the exact same technology and programming that is in the new VL Challengers is the same that are in the AC-9s.....and now the Challengers won't lash up with other Challengers, Big Boys, or FEFs? 

Has anyone tried this?

 

I would guess the odds are good the Challengers would lash up with other RCMC locomotives. The AC-9s were primarily freight haulers which, I assume, is why Lionel geared them lower. The Challengers were dual service so would have had higher top speeds. That said you will just have to wait 'till they show up to know for sure.

Pete

You might try reading thru the youtube comments on that video to get a clarification a clarification that TrainWorld made about the note they put in the video itself.

Pete: Do you really think that "the company" is so particular and precise as to make that conscious, deliberate decision on the gearing?

To everyone else:  please note how the running gear on the AC-9 is in exactly the same position on both sets of drive wheels....just like it is on the new VL Challengers.

Hmmm...........

EscapeRocks posted:

You might try reading thru the youtube comments on that video to get a clarification a clarification that TrainWorld made about the note they put in the video itself.

I see that now.  So, rather than edit the video, they apparently just added a comment to correct it.

Oh well.......

Berkshire President posted:

Both the AC-9 and the recent release of VL Challengers are articulated steam engines that Big Orange has apparently seen fit to remove the articulated sounds from...

 

Wrong...  The AC9 has articulated sounds.

Maybe instead of talking about the articulated sounds, we could show pictures of how they look (the new Vision Line Challengers).

I will try a lashup this weekend of AC9 and challenger to clarify and misunderstandings or conjecture...

There are no "articulated sounds", as such.

A simple articulated (such as the SP AC-9; UP Challenger) has a syncopated exhaust at very low speeds, but even this quickly disappears to the human ear as speeds climb.

A 4-cylinder compound articulated loco (such as the USRA 2-6-6-2) has the same exhaust as a 2-cylinder loco, as only the 2 low-pressure cylinders exhaust to the atmosphere through the stack. This has been consistently (universally....?) gotten wrong in models. 

I passed on the now frozen Challenger thread, but had to take a look when you mentioned it above.

A model with a single motor and two identical gearboxes cannot go in and out of synch, so the sound system really shouldn't either.  But the real thing does, and the double-chuff phenomenon can be heard sometimes and not others.

Easy to fake, if that is what you want.

But the better way is to make the engines go in and out of synch.  Two motors is a solution, but it generally requires butchering th boiler belly - distasteful!  I did do one where the front driveshaft went through the rear tubular shaft.  The hangup there was the drop-down - Sunset's tooth belt would have made it viable.

The best way I found was a 24:1 gearbox on the rear, and a 25:1 box on the front.  I found no slippage with a heavy load, and no discernable pattern to the "in and out of synch" effect, even though it repeated itself precisely.  A cam on each engine driving a sound system would give you the desired effect.

No, I did not patent either.  I thought about it, but patents are really expensive to get and maintain.

bob2 posted:

I passed on the now frozen Challenger thread, but had to take a look when you mentioned it above.

A model with a single motor and two identical gearboxes cannot go in and out of synch, so the sound system really shouldn't either.

That was the point i was trying to make.  Its very VISIBLE when the two sets of drivers are insync or out of sync...  the sounds should match that...  since model is locked in sync, it should have in sync sounds to match its appearance...

but whatever lionel will give us whatever we want.

I tested my daylight ac9 and it did have the dual chuff of out of sync drivers up to about speed step 14, then it sounds like drivers in sync...

D500 posted:

There are no "articulated sounds", as such.

Really?

A simple articulated (such as the SP AC-9; UP Challenger) has a syncopated exhaust at very low speeds, but even this quickly disappears to the human ear as speeds climb.

So,,,,,,,,,,,please tell us just how many miles you have on board N&W 1218, or UP 3985, in order to make such a rash statement.

A 4-cylinder compound articulated loco (such as the USRA 2-6-6-2) has the same exhaust as a 2-cylinder loco, as only the 2 low-pressure cylinders exhaust to the atmosphere through the stack.

Not on starting, as the "simpleing valve" provides live steam to all cylinders, otherwise a compound articulated could never start train. 

This has been consistently (universally....?) gotten wrong in models. 

Absolutely correct!

Peter Araujo posted:

Maybe instead of talking about the articulated sounds, we could show pictures of how they look (the new Vision Line Challengers).

So....your constant requests for pictures of these models (even though there are actual videos of them running on youtube)....is more important than what those of us questioning the sound package are concerned about?

The Legacy Y6b starts out in simple mode with articulated chuffs and when it gets up to a certain speed shifts to the compound mode with 4 chuff/rev.  Seems correct to me.

Return those VL Challengers and stop buying BTO. Its quite obvious Lionel just expects us to deal with whatever they send out.

Berkshire president...  in the previous (now closed) VL Challenger conversation...  you claimed Lionel decieved us all with claiming the scale berkshires DID NOT ACTUALLY HAVE firebox glow, although Lionel claimed they did...

I posted this pic showing they did...

Then...  you said you misspoke and Lionel did not have ASHPAN GLOW...

Well, again, HERE IT IS...

This is on SCALE LIONEL BERKSHIRES...  this is a 765...

So what Lionel Scale Berk do you actually have that doesnt have these features?  I think its on all of lionel tooled scale berks...

You came out so emphatic that Lionel Berks didnt have the features they claimed...  but they did and they do.

My AC12 made no difference whether the 2 engines were sync'd up or not. When I bought it they were in sync but still made the articulated sound of 2 separate engines. I physically un-sync'd them myself just for appearance and it made no change to the articulated sounds. The new VL Challenger sounds no different than the FEF's!

This is a sad state of affairs.  It took me 4 days to get a good set of U.P. PA's. I ordered two J1as. And a Hudson.  I'm not looking forward to shelling out 5 grand for more headaches. 

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire president...  in the previous (now closed) VL Challenger conversation...  you claimed Lionel decieved us all with claiming the scale berkshires DID NOT ACTUALLY HAVE firebox glow, although Lionel claimed they did...

I posted this pic showing they did...

Then...  you said you misspoke and Lionel did not have ASHPAN GLOW...

Well, again, HERE IT IS...

This is on SCALE LIONEL BERKSHIRES...  this is a 765...

So what Lionel Scale Berk do you actually have that doesnt have these features?  I think its on all of lionel tooled scale berks...

You came out so emphatic that Lionel Berks didnt have the features they claimed...  but they did and they do.

Wrong and arrogant again, Bob....but that's clearly how you roll.

Did I misuse the term "variable ash pan glow" with "flickering firebox in cab"?  Yes...and I said as such.

That said, your "evidence" of the ash plan glow is almost laughable.  Your photo is in pitch black and you can barely see anything.  At all.

In contrast, that same feature was easily and very visible on my NKP TMCC Mallet as it is on other locomotives...in a well lit train room. To say that feature works on the scale Berks is somewhat disingenuous, IMHO.

This might surprise you....but your opinion here means nothing to me.  In early 2004, I had a very nice, civil conversation with a woman at Lionel who (effectively) said that the feature doesn't work very well, if at all, on the Berks.  I've been enjoying that locomotive since then, but I always questioned why that feature was listed in the product description.

J Daddy posted:

This is a sad state of affairs.  It took me 4 days to get a good set of U.P. PA's. I ordered two J1as. And a Hudson.  I'm not looking forward to shelling out 5 grand for more headaches. 

Im sure the AC9 and a VL challenger will lash up...  don't sweat it...  I will do it Saturday and post the video.

Laidoffsick posted:

The new VL Challenger sounds no different than the FEF's!

Bingo!! I wanted to run a 3985 with an 844 and have the different sound and smoke features of each.  I also wanted to run the new 3985 with my JLC Big Boy and have two UP articulateds running at the same time.

Doesn't seem like that's going to be possible. 

Berkshire President posted:

Super O Bob posted:

Berkshire president...  in the previous (now closed) VL Challenger conversation...  you claimed Lionel decieved us all with claiming the scale berkshires DID NOT ACTUALLY HAVE firebox glow, although Lionel claimed they did...

I posted this pic showing they did...

Then...  you said you misspoke and Lionel did not have ASHPAN GLOW...

Well, again, HERE IT IS...

This is on SCALE LIONEL BERKSHIRES...  this is a 765...

So what Lionel Scale Berk do you actually have that doesnt have these features?  I think its on all of lionel tooled scale berks...

You came out so emphatic that Lionel Berks didnt have the features they claimed...  but they did and they do.

Wrong and arrogant again, Bob....but that's clearly how you roll.

Did I misuse the term "variable ash pan glow" with "flickering firebox in cab"?  Yes...and I said as such.

That said, your "evidence" of the ash plan glow is almost laughable.  Your photo is in pitch black and you can barely see anything.  At all.

In contrast, that same feature was easily and very visible on my NKP TMCC Mallet as it is on other locomotives...in a well lit train room. To say that feature works on the scale Berks is somewhat disingenuous, IMHO.

This might surprise you....but your opinion here means nothing to me.  In early 2004, I had a very nice, civil conversation with a woman at Lionel who (effectively) said that the feature doesn't work very well, if at all, on the Berks.  I've been enjoying that locomotive since then, but I always questioned why that feature was listed in the product description.

Look.  You have been back peddling at every turn.  You were WRONG and you dont have decency to admit it.

I thought you were just clueless about the product and tried to help.  Apparently you just make false claims and drop a load and run away.

This engine is idling.  The glow is a dynamic feature.  It glows brighter when its under load.

Sorry I am so arrogant i only have a simple light switch in my trainroom!

The feature is there and works great...  dont matter if someone probably told you otherwise.  Look at the product and it has the feature and it works great.  I could see it in lighted room.

I'm not back peddling at all, Bob.  Not remotely.

I have the TMCC 779 (38050) and first Legacy 765....same as you.  I have excellent eye sight...and have not seen that feature work......on the same layout and in the same train room where other locomotives had that feature work flawlessly.

Here's a nice video of someone running C&O 2699:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZnhrB-srGs&t=1s

Where's the glow that you speak of?

My Polar Express from last year has ash pan glow. I don't get it. What's the issue?

Here's a video of a Legacy Mallet with the ash pan glow clearly working:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0UKb9Jt9gI

AND...what does this "glow" discussion have to do with the topic?  Sounds like this whole thread is just another complaining session....  Why not contact the manufacturer and give them a chance to address your issues?  Anyway, the mods reported back to me that they had to delete some of the posts here for various reasons.  Calm down a little and go run some trains...

Alan:  the point that I was trying to make with the Ash Plan Glow had to do with how items are depicted in a catalog versus what the actual end product looked like or featured.

The models and features in question are 10 - 15 years old.  There is no need to contact the manufacturer in this case....although I did back in 2004.  Obviously, I've moved on and purchased others like it.

If it isnt working, fix it...  but thats a very different thing from saying a manufacturer is claiming a feature that is not in the product when it is for all of us...

So just like this claim, where is the basis for the claim that new VL challengers cannot lash up with AC 9s?  Thats the subject of this post...

Super O Bob posted:

So just like this claim, where is the basis for the claim that new VL challengers cannot lash up with AC 9s?  Thats the subject of this post...

That was a mistake by Trainworld. The only steam locomotive in the catalog the AC9 was featured in that actually did have a different gear setting was the 3-truck Shay. The AC9 has the same gear setting that the Vision Challenger and just about all other Legacy Locomotives have.

Berkshire President posted:

I haven't seen anything posted on this and I didn't follow the AC-9s when they came out.

But, apparently, the AC-9s would not lash up with other Legacy locomotives, as evidenced by this video and the comments beginning around the 1:21 mark in this video:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0DBVSqRoPI   (Whether you chose to believe this explanation is up to you......)

So, riddle me this, Bat Man:  Both the AC-9 and the recent release of VL Challengers are articulated steam engines that Big Orange has apparently seen fit to remove the articulated sounds from and have both drivers "in sync" all the time.

What are the odds that the exact same technology and programming that is in the new VL Challengers is the same that are in the AC-9s.....and now the Challengers won't lash up with other Challengers, Big Boys, or FEFs? 

Has anyone tried this?

 

Just a quick response to the original question.  Yes, the AC9 will lash up with other legacy locos.  I have lashed it up with our cab forward.  I believe my son has a video of it on his Train man Dan YouTube channel.  It may even be a triple header with the 4-12-2.  A video of it may be on the Detroit 3 Railers channel as well.  Hope that helps.

Super O Bob posted:

If it isnt working, fix it...  but thats a very different thing from saying a manufacturer is claiming a feature that is not in the product when it is for all of us...

So just like this claim, where is the basis for the claim that new VL challengers cannot lash up with AC 9s?  Thats the subject of this post...

Bob:  I posted a link from Trainworld with online script mentioning that the AC-9 would not lash up.  Someone pointed out that down in the comments, Trainworld mentioned that they made a mistake.  I did not see that comment before posting.  (Since it was from Trainworld, I took it at face value without further investigation.  My bad.)  I also mentioned that I did not follow this model at all and that I was just posting a video.  To be clear, the AC-9 will lash up properly.

My last comments on Variable Ash Pan glow are as follows, as I can not beat a dead horse any longer:  I really like that feature and have enjoyed it on several Lionel models that I've owned. But I've never seen that feature work on any of my scale Berks.  I've never seen that feature work in a YouTube video on a scale Berk.  Nor have I witnessed it in person....and I've seen a LOT of scale, Lima Berks run...for it's one of my favorite models.  I actually had a very polite and pleasant conversation with Customer Service at Lionel back in early 2004 where they admitted that the feature doesn't really work in those models.  I can only go by what I've seen on this topic.

If you've had better luck with this feature, hats off to you.

Personally, I (and probably many others) would like to move on from this very marginal topic....but I look forward to whatever videos you may post over the weekend of the new VL Challenger and AC-9 lashed up.

Steam Loco Greg posted:

 

 

Just a quick response to the original question.  Yes, the AC9 will lash up with other legacy locos.  I have lashed it up with our cab forward.  I believe my son has a video of it on his Train man Dan YouTube channel.  It may even be a triple header with the 4-12-2.  A video of it may be on the Detroit 3 Railers channel as well.  Hope that helps.

Greg:  If you could provide a link to the video with that triple header, I'd love to see it. 

Thanks!

J Daddy posted:

This is a sad state of affairs.  It took me 4 days to get a good set of U.P. PA's. I ordered two J1as. And a Hudson.  I'm not looking forward to shelling out 5 grand for more headaches. 

Amen!

This discussion is just another wast of forum space.

Here are my 2 Legacy Berks.  The 765, first release with Rich's voice and whistle steam.  About 6 years old now I guess and the latest Polar Express.  Both with visible ash pan glow.

Marty:  there is something definitely red at the 17 second mark of your 765 video...and the effect appears more pronounced on your Tom Hanks version.  Very interesting.....

Marty....and anyone else still paying attention:  check out this great video of Norm Charbonneau's PM 1225 and tell me if you see any glow?  (The video is worth watching regardless of this "topic".)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZkNOUlkTLA

Granted, this 1225 is beautifully weathered...but I don't see any glow.  His model also smokes better than any of my Legacy Lima Berks......but that could have been modified.  Its Whistle Steam is also very robust.

https://youtu.be/Ljx9L_n-ckU

Try the link above for the triple header.  It is a Detroit 3 trailer meet from this February at Norm Charbonneau's.  About the 5:20 mark it starts.

I can't speak as to why Norm's does not either show up or work.  Mine do.  They work as well as any Legacy engine I have.  I'm just not sure what the point is and that's not meant to be argumental.  Maybe you do have a defective unit.  I don't know but what I do know that they still have this effect and it works.  As far as smoke, my 2 Berks smoke very well, whistle steam and all. so IDK about that either.  Neither is modified and most of the time are operated on low or medium and put out plenty of smoke.

As far as lashups between the VL Challenger and others, I suspect they'll be fine but have no first hand knowledge.  I haven't found an engine I can't lashup yet as long as they are not using BEMF.

My PE Berk has both the flickering firebox and the variable ash pan glow. It is a few years old and not from the most recent run.  I believe it was the first run with whistle steam, which also still works.