Does command control scare away operators?

Some are just set in there ways and don't want to change, OR are AFRAID to try something new. Doug and I have built our layout to run using DCS, TMCC and Legacy. So nice to use the remotes and run two trains on each track and set scale speed and let them run. They run GREAT! Also can set TIU so we can run post war on our bottom track using the remotes. So much easier and more fun than running wit the transformer. We use 1 ZW-L, 1 Z-40001 4 180 bricks for our blocks on the ML, old zw 275 for lighting in the Yard and RH. Another will be used for the Brewery, Ice dock and passenger station and platforms.

What is all this SCARED and AFRAID?????People need to loosen up man.Were PLAYING remember???Nick

Old school mentality! We been doing it this way for years, I ain't changing now. Call it tradition or call it stubborn. Lifes changes through the times, you either move forward or get left behind.

Sorta like kicking all the sellers out at 845am to stand back in line with the public and fight their way back in the doors at 9am. Thats the point of sellers getting their early, to be ready at their table when the people come in. Oh, but they've always done it that way, why act civilized now?

The command stuff is so easy to learn, especially when someone is standing right there showing you how to do it. Some of those guys will just never WANT to change Jeff.

 Exactly. Some of this ridiculous terminology implies modelers are supposed to be all using command control of some type. While a club certainly has to reach a consensus on how to operate its layout, individuals  are doing this for fun, and shouldn't be questioned for having fun any way they choose. Many hunters have decided to take up muzzle-loading or archery rather than hunting with modern weapons. They aren't frightened or confused by modern technology. They are either motivated by an interest in history or a desire for the simplicity of earlier times.

 

I suggest an alternate question. Why do so many modelers jump at every new piece of technology brought out in this hobby, like a cat swiping at tinsel dangled in front of it, when they could avoid compatibility issues and all the other minor headaches this technology poses by running trains conventionally?

 

Of course there is option three, letting people explore the possibilies themselves and play with their trains their way.

Good question, I think it does. I run strictly conventional but when I looked at this remote stuff there were too many issues. Too many questions and too many $$. Yes, they run great-when they work right.  One engine ??  what happens when it craps out and away for repair ??  Too many gremlins in the equipment.  Certain electronics I can deal with but, over all, don't like them. Do like digital photography though.  I would have to see a better cost/benefit ration to adapt the remote stuff.

Another TMCC/DCS evangelist.  It never seems to occur to them that maybe some folks are not the least bit "lost," "scared," "intimidated," or even "etc."  They simply prefer to run their trains conventionally.  Calling them "chicken" over it is a schoolyard tactic that  shouldn't work on adults.

 

Seems like you're in the minority with these guys. If it's so important maybe you can join or start a modular group that runs only TMCC/DCS.

 

Pete

I have run both conventional and TMCC in 3 rail and DCC in HO. My income is of limited means, so I have not been able to afford the whole TMCC/Legacy movement. I also prefer trains from the early to mid postwar era, and do not really want to modify them by installing TMCC. A couple local gentlemen with large layouts wanted to be able to run both.  They installed both postwar ZWs and TMCC and can switch between the 2 seperate set ups thru a DPDT heavy duty toggle switch.  So they can run either or.  On a club layout, one could add an indicator lamp to show which system is connected to the track. For myself, some of it is being scared of change, but that is part of my autism.  Due to the autism, I am very routine driven and any change causes me lots of anxiety and stress. So staying in the past with analog systems, cause me less stress due to change, less stress over trying to afford it as well. Mike

I believe many, especially older people are more intimidated then scared, and they don't consider "playing" with control systems as fun. And frankly, when your challenged to get a manufacturers engine to work correctly via a remote it isn't fun, its downright frustrating. I know guys who prefer not to deal with it and return to conventional running of their old trains, while new ones go back in the box and stashed under the layout, get sold, or whatever.

 

 

 

 

I've been in the hobby for over half a century in various scales and currently in S.  I find running conventional is just as enjoyable as running with command control. 

 

But then, I'm most interested in a good running locomotive that's well detailed vs. the stuff inside controlling it.  I'm also interested in a train that represents it's era over say, an SD70 pulling wooden billboard reefers.

 

The thing I find most disconcerting is when the implication is made that command control with all the bells and whistles is the ONLY was to enjoy the hobby.

 

So, I have to flip a few toggles every now and then and the only sound is the rolling of wheels and a little gear noise.  Big deal.

 

Rusty

Jeff, I take it this is the conversation you were having at the end of the show. I appreciate you bringing your zwl  and legacy controller. The bulk of the the trains running on the outer loop are your legacy engines and you need to keep them safe. Some people will never change and that is fine. I still run conventional at times. Do you have a cab2? Less buttons, less confusion? Just a thought. Write up a cheat sheet quick guide so members have a something to refer to? Can't wait to see you how this turns out. See you at 9. 

 

Bob

Paul hits the nail on the head. Be it trains, a smart device or a car/truck.  They are so complex that its beyond manys ablity to solve issues and that is where frustration sets in.  Only frustration with older trains is a dirty E unit or the need to properly service the piece.  Both easily solved and considered by most to be an enjoyable part of old toy trains.  Frustration with electronic issues is one reason I abandon DCC in HO scale. Its really neat when it works. Mike

My qcomment is you say you have 4 tracks isolate 2 for command and 2 for conventional and you both have your way. 

Being not against technology but for reliability, there is no need for anything other than conventional control on my 15" x 28" layout just as there is no need for a machine that automatically puts my pants on. Point is that not all people require push button control for everything. There is already enough disposable remote control devices in this house

The power goes on and the four trains run around 4 loops.  The layout doesn't need it and I won't have it just for the sake of having it.

quote:

Sorta like kicking all the sellers out at 845am to stand back in line with the public and fight their way back in the doors at 9am. Thats the point of sellers getting their early, to be ready at their table when the people come in. Oh, but they've always done it that way, why act civilized now?

 

I know a good number of table holders who only get table so they can get in early to cherry pick other people's tables. Yes, they sell some trains, but that is not their primary purpose. 90 percent of the other table holders also make the rounds to buy up stuff from other peoples tables. That's why the York (and a few other) train shows used to have the closed box rule. At York, members are allowed to set up and stay with their tables, trading is prohibited before the show opens to the public. There seemed to be good compliance the last time I had a table, which was a few years ago. On the other hand, another show that I attend from time to time has very poor compliance, with many trades taking place before the show opened the last few times I attended.

quote:

I believe many, especially older people are more intimidated then scared, and they don't consider "playing" with control systems as fun.

 

I doubt there are many people who are intimidated or scared. I think there are many who do not see any benefit, and cannot be bothered.

Command control doesn't bother me at all. But like the internet I don't know it all.

Command when I have company or the club layouts but I still like the handles when I'm alone. However Legacy runs better with a remote so I use it. And what does age have to do with it? you too will be old sooner than you think.

Well said, CW.  After 25 years in the computer industry, neither electronics nor software can "intimidate" or "scare" me.  But I am annoyed to no end by the legions of eager technophiles who would like their way of enjoying model railroading to be the only acceptable one.  And who think that anyone who disagrees can only be motivated by ignorance, fear or creeping senility.

 

Command control doesn't thrill everyone.  Deal with it.

 

The National Capital Trackers have long striven to be all inclusive when it comes to operating systems. Yes, all groups have the "ZW handle is good enough for me" contingent, and that is OK. Both groups need and should be respectful of the other. The Trackers have made sure that anything from prewar Märklin to the latest Legacy/PS3 and everything in between will run on the Layout at any time. Often it takes a lot of repeated explaining so all fears are allayed, everybody has some understanding, and the majority are on board. This is a frequent occurrence as manufacturers up the bar and offer new and exciting ways to run trains. The wi-fi offerings are the latest item: Might it offer value and some benefit? Yes. Do we really need it to run our trains? Probably not. Will it be the end of the club? No. Might it bring new and younger members when they see we can run trains with an app? Yes.

 

Steve

I understand the need for a modular club to standardize, which is where the issue will arise the most of course. 

For my $0.02, I have no preference for the endless fiddling with programming and electronics, and that preference is purely for the sake of relaxation, not intransigence.

If the endless forum posts about every problem on every manufacturer's systems are any indication, I'm right in my personal preference.

The electronics isn't for me, but not because I'm anti-technology. I want my hobby to be simple, relaxing and fun, without the endless frustrations I see in these pages. I run conventional, and when the electronics mess up on my small collection, I won't be endlessly sending them out for repair. They will be going conventional, with the most advanced electronics being the (gasp!) e-unit. 

Yes, running trains from my phone is appealing, and wireless sound systems instead of the tinny-sounding (to me) onboard train sounds would be great. Until an actual working, affordable system comes up though, I'm sticking with two wires.

Whew.... since we're near the end of November, I was concerned that we'd not see our monthly Command versus Conventional operating topic. 

 

 

 

 

Run how you want.  It just doesn't matter.   I am one of those who has "all the latest technology doodads" as someone else put it.  However, I still run conventional when the mood strikes.

 

As far as command scaring people; come on.  This stuff is so uncomplicated.  I got TMCC when it first came out.   I handed the CAb1 to my then 7 year old.  She had it figured out in 30 seconds.   On the other end, my now 76 year old father, who got his first train set in 1946, loves TMCC, DCS, etc.. as much as I do.   He also loves grabbing the handles of my ZW's, as much as I do.

 

All in all, this is just another facet of the hobby.  Use it if you like, don't use it if you don't. 

This is a hobby. Not life and death

  As Sgt. Hulka said in Stripes, "Lighten up, Francis."

I ran for years only in conventional mode.  I would purchase a $500.00 MTH or Legacy diesel locomotive and just run it with my old ZW. Six months ago I couldnt stand it any longer, I purchased a Z4000 and DCS.  To put it simply, I stepped it up.  DCS has opened up a whole new world.  As far as being scared, no, with the help of the awesome folks on this forum, the switch to DCS was a breeze.  As for my old post war conventional Lionel locomotives, I have a loop on my layout dedicated just for them.  Operating modern locomotives in conventional mode is to greatly short change yourself.

I agree with what German says.

 

For me, it's neither fear nor being scared away. It's an intentional choice. For a smaller layout, command control just isn't necessary. It's nice that it is available as an option, but hardly essential.

 

Taking what German said a little further, for nearly the entire history of 3-rails, it has meant TOY trains: Traditionally sized, non-prototypical scale. Even today, a production run of 2,000 pieces of a traditional product is a very small run, while for a scale product the same number is a very big run.

 

When I got back into trains 25 years ago, if I had wanted scale fidelity and variety of scale products, I would have gone HO, where the size of the market warrants the production of the products.

 

I instead wanted to have fun operating trains in a small space, which means 027 track and traditionally sized trains. But I'm hardly stuck in my ways or afraid of change! I utilize circuit boards, LED's and have a digital sound system.

 

When I read all the comments about high end product failure and DOA's - and hear the same exact comments from repair guys - I've never once had a defective or DOA product! And my traditionally sized trains with features, are made in the same place as all the other trains. From the most recent survey I am aware of, the majority of participants in the 3-rail hobby are STILL conventional control operators, as well as traditional scale buyers.

 

I don't run trains for frustration. I run them for fun. And I've learned rather than grumble and complain about what isn't being made by the mean ol' train makers, I make it myself. We have so much to be thankful for in this hobby with everything that has ALREADY been made - given the small size of the 3-rail market. And from what I can gather, I suspect I'm a lot happier than many others in the hobby.

huh, all my friends that ML tell me it is because of earlier and longer seasons... lol.

when i was in my 40's i remember using this argument a lot, but now that i am considered a senior by most standards, it doesn't seem to hold water as much today.  i grew up with Byte Magazine and home brew single board computers so there is no intimidation factor with this "older" person.  on the contrary, there is ironically more of an understanding about what can and what won't work under the conditions the hardly robust commercial sound and control system designs manufacturers are putting into model trains.  it hardly surprises me that failure tends to be the norm.

 

i have seen and tried most of the modern command control systems available over the past few decades and while some are admittedly innovative and fun to watch for a while, aside from lights and a good whistle/ horn, i find the rest of the gimmicky features quickly lose their attraction with some (eg: train/ station announcements) eventually becoming truly annoying.

 

cheers...gary

I have had command since day 1 when Lionel released TMCC in 1995 and DCS since 2000 when that was released.

 

I understand running conventional, my brother only runs conventional while I run only command. Is one better then the other, NO! 

 

It is all about fun and both my brother and I are having fun. Btw command is just not for the younger group, I'm 69 and love it. Waiting for the WIU now. 

 

Do what you like but most of all, HAVE FUN!

 

Also I'm building a Ho layout now with only MTH Ho engines and dcs. The sounds, smoke and detail on MTH Ho engines are amazing. Plus dcs is much more intuitive then DCC will ever be IMO. 

 

TMCC, Legacy, Powermaster, Command Base, Brick, ZW-1, TR, Eng, Aux, Acc, Sw, Cab1, Cab2, BPC, TPC, Command, Cruise, Odyssey, ERR.

Press Acc 4 or whatever # then Aux1 then 1 to power up the block. Then TR 2 or whatever # to control the voltage. Press Acc 4 or whatever then Aux1 then 0 to cut the power to the block, etc, etc, etc. Tip of the iceberg.

Want to ramp up the smoke or change the chuff? Press this one that one and the other one twice then hit 7 a few times.

Quill your whistle anybody?

What could possibly be the reason people just want to move one lever to make a train move?

I run in conventional mode for some of the same reasons that I drive a sports car with a manual transmission.

Tom B

Scare is not the issue. Because there is nothing to be scared about when running trains. 

 

We all know that trains have become more expensive as the electronics have gotten more complex and moved to command operation possibilities. 

 

Unless you can find your own reason to go from conventional to command you are likely to stay with conventional.  The manufacturers have tried to give you reasons to switch.

They have added features that are only available in command. Further, they have limited conventional production in favor of command.

 

However, we have all read here about set-up issues that have arisen in command that are not even conceivable in conventional operation. Again, it may not scare you but these issue do seem intimidating when you are not an electrical or software engineer who seem to take these issues in stride. 

 

DCS books have been written and command videos are available to try help lessen the intimidation about using command, but still these may not help at all.

 

I use command but find that if I stop for a while I need to re-learn the controls; with a ZW control there is not much to re-learn.

 

So I still dont think that scare or fear is the issue as to why one stays with conventional, it just easier.

 

 

 

sometimes it's all you've got...

 

.

Jeff,

   Some people are intimidated by command control and want to just run in the old conventional manner, although nice it does limit the layout a great deal.  If I were you I would set up both and let the members run what they like most.  Most times what happens is the old conventional runners get sucked into the new Command Control, especially once they see that the switches can be remotely controlled, and that the sounds are way cool.  Keep going down the education path, and let the members run as they choose, most will end up running both.  The learning curve is eliminated by fun play.

PCRR/Dave

Some great advice from Marty.

 

Read your manuals people, you will be surprised how much info is there.

I know of a couple of clubs that have the same issues with the membership concerning running command control or not.  Some members want to run command and others don't.  The result is that neither the command or conventional systems work well.  

 

One big advantage of command systems that no one mentions is that layout wiring is greatly simplified.  There is no need for complex block systems, etc., when running multiple trains.  

 

My HO club had the same issue with DCC vs. conventional.  We finally converted to DCC and everything works extremely well.  Everyone learned how to operate the DCC system and they enjoy the advanced features that DCC offers.

 

I firmly believe that the future of the hobby is command control.  The young people that we want to attract are going to expect it.  Most of them, or their parents, buy engines with command systems already installed.  I don't think that MTH makes any new engines without DCS.  Lionel only makes a handful of engines without some kind of command system.  (I include the Lion Chief system as a command system.)  All of the new 3rd Rail engines come with DCC (for 2-rail) or a version of Lionel's command system for 3-rail.  I think that most of Atlas's O new engines come with command.  

 

The only strictly conventional engines that will be available in the future will be those on the used market.  I was at a train show yesterday.  Used engines weren't flying off dealers tables.  I did see robust sales of new engines with command systems.  

 

I also noticed that all of the modular layouts at yesterday's train show were running command control.  This included the N scale layouts.

 

NH Joe 

 

 

Not being tied to the layout via a controller of some sort thru a cable to the track has always interested me.  I used the Aristo-Craft Train Engineer on my HO layout when it came out back last century.  The TE is now being used with my G-scale trains.

 

Even back in the HO days I thought of how cool it would be to have "Remote Controlled" trains, much like RC planes, no wires attached.  The freedom that offers has always been appealing.

 

When I got into O scale I wanted to keep it simple, used a Z750 wired directly to the layout for a couple of years, but never liked the slow-speed control or the knob on the control box.  After listening to the folks here talk about how much better their engines ran using command control I took the bait and bought TMCC, but only the CAB-1 and the Powermaster, just so I could have a handheld remote.  Didn't care much for the BIG RED KNOB either.

 

It was OK, but the slow speed still wasn't what I wanted and decided to go with DCS Remote Commander.

 

It was OK, but like a dummy I drove 100 up to Richmond VA to get 1 of my PS2 engines reset so it would run (should gotten GGG to do it, he was just down the street at the time ).  Plus the DCSRC still didn't have all the features of full-blown DCS.

 

Shortly after that I went full DCS, then got the Legacy Lite to run the couple of TMCC/Legacy engines I had at the same time as my PS2 engines...all was GREAT!

 

Then I got to looking at all the volumes of material needed to use/understand these complex systems, plus I was growing tired of all the noise generated by the sounds coming from the track and the trains, PLUS I kept thinking back to those simpler times of just running trains with a simple handheld remote.  Not only that, I was getting tired of the "noise" generated by all the brand name infighting, to read some of the comments made you would think some people own stock in these companies.  The "gotta have this or gotta have that" comments really do an injustice to our hobby (why would anyone need a $900 dual-handled transformer to run a loop of track?).

 

Back in May I started converting my 8 steamers from PS2 to battery-powered, remote-control.  Very simple install, with a minimum of paperwork to read over, basically wiring instructions.  I'm using a system offered by RCS Australia (Tony Walsham) and couldn't be more happy with the results.  I've added sound to 1 engine, but none of the 8 have smoke and if I never put sound in any of them others I won't miss it.  NO WIRES to my layout at present (I may wire some buildings in the future with LEDs).

 

So no, control control doesn't scare me.  What really has got me excited is the new system(s) being developed that use the Bluetooth technology, such as BlueRail trains:

 

http://bluerailtrains.com/

 

Even though I don't have a device that uses it, once the Bluetooth systems become available for upgrading engines I may have to break down and get a device that uses it.  They're even going to offer one for battery power!

I'm fine with conventional. The only reason I have TMCC is so my passenger car lights can be always on and consistantly bright. I want to see the 120 figures that I hand-painted inside. The more complex, the more that can go wrong, and I'm not into fixing stuff.

I would say old school mentality. There is far more running just loops for various valid reasons in O gauge.  I think operators tend to focus on HO or N layouts.  I've even seen O gaugers say have no interest in realistic train operation. Too each their own...  In the end its what each individual chooses to do.

Command trains can all be fixed.   The people and parts to fix them exists everywhere.  Throw stones at me if you wish, but to me not buying/running command for that reason  is a lame excuse.  

 

Authorized repair stations exist to help guys who can not take care of and maintain trains.   Most of us grew up with conventional trains.  Some of us moved on and others did not.  Many reasons exist for this.  I respect everyone's choice.   

 

Enjoy.

Unless you are running models of recent EMD and GE engines the new command and control systems aren't authentic. Think of the engineer in the cab with his hand on the throttle and the air brake. Running the train by line side signals or train orders. If there were two trains on one track they were in their own block. So I sit by my KW with my hand on the lever with a keen eye on the signals.

Jim,  we are all running TOY trains and enjoy different aspects of the hobby.  About two years ago a Friend of mine asked to bring his grandchildren to see my trains.  He has a nice PW layout.  After about two minutes, the kids jacked him up big time demanding to know why his trains are not like my trains and he can not run trains with a remote.  That turned into a short visit for him.  I am where I want to be in the hobby and I hope everyone else is also.  Run trains and have fun.