Does command control scare away operators?

I don't have anything personal against command control systems and those who use and enjoy them. I just don't want the bother and expense of such systems. I enjoy "old school." In fact, the old school technology of open frame AC motors  and mechanical E-units is part of what lead me to 3 rail O-gauge in the first place.
Listen, I work in IT, my personal HP laptop is running Windows 10, I figured out the DVR, and I now am using a Galaxy 6 smartphone to make this post. I am NOT afraid of the latest technology, I just simply wish to not use it with my trains. Especially with my tinplate trains! LOL

Andy, enjoy and have fun.  

If the price and the reliability reputation, as posted on here, does not scare you away,

have at it!  Like I tell people buying automobiles, "Whatever you can afford to fix...."

I agree-do what you enjoy BUT don't talk down other hobbyists because they aren't doing what you are.

 

You must have slept through the half hour explanation I had to provide at the meeting Thursday night about how the Chinese were not going to hack the trains because we had WiFi hooked up... I dont think the dinosaurs were convinced, but I'm hooking the WiFi up anyways.

I don't know how frightening command control can be. We have kids running trains at the club all the time. They seem to take to both Legacy and DCS just fine.

 

quote:

 After about two minutes, the kids jacked him up big time demanding to know why his trains are not like my trains and he can not run trains with a remote.

 

My trains exist for my amusement, not for the amusement of my children, or future grandchildren.

My kids played with trains though out their childhood, with Brio, die cast Thomas trains by Ertl, and all sorts of electric trains in "O","HO" and "N" gauge. Both of them have a deep knowledge of Postwar Lionel trains, including how to repair them.

 

Neither of them have any interest in model railroading or collecting. And if they did, they wouldn't have time or money for them anyway.

 

Likewise.  My situation is such that many people want to visit.  Everyone is welcome.  I built my layout for me and  others enjoy it.

 

Jim, I talk down to nobody.  I just made  a statement of fact.  I could care less what anyone wants to do with trains.  My only wish is that they enjoy themselves and have fun.

 

THEY ARE TOYS.

Thanks for everyone's input. I have always set up to run everything from pre-war to Legacy so conventional control is there it is just the perception. I played around today with only using the ZW-L handles as requested and another member went to run a conventional train. Since conventional does not have speed control this member was having to twist his head looking around and asked to use the remote to control track power instead. I had to laugh. 

 

Frankly, I just want people to run and enjoy trains. Nothing less. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input.

Jeff, your ZW-L will make any conventional engine run like it never has run before.  Great match for conventional operation.  Lionel did a great job on that transformer.

In this discussion, I have not seen a lot of mention of slow speed operation. For me, that (and running two or more trains on same track) are the big advantages of command operation. However, I like backing my trains into the station with prototypical slowness. That was never possible in conventional operation, at least with old ZWs.  Does the new ZW-L allow very slow conventional operation?

 

 

I'm old! By almost anyone's standard!

 

Without the sounds and the command control, I doubt very much I'd have returned to trains at all! Absolutely no interest whatsover in the trains of the past that I had all those years ago. In fact, it took me a while to actually figure out that some people actually prefer the "old" stuff. Even old tinplate! Just not for me!

 

But, I concede wholeheartedly that these new toys are just staggeringly unreliable! And I have no local dealer to service them. Getting them repaired is quite unrealistic most of the time. Shipping alone is often a killer.

 

I hesitate to post this but, here goes.

 

In the past 10 months I have bought 13 locomotives, all new. Five have had "problems."

Of these five, three have failed totally, as in were/are "dead as doornails!" Of the three "total failures," only one has been successfully repaired. Another is still "at the shop." The third of the three total failures was repaired, and failed totally again two days after "coming home."

Two others continue to run but with intermittent sound problems. I have hopes of repairing at least one of them on my own.

 

I WILL say, they all LOOK GREAT!!! I quickly, and sadly, learned the meaning of the term "Shelf Queen."

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a hobby and people should run trains in the manner that makes them comfortable and provides them with the most fun.

 

Having said that, I will tell you that I ran trains conventionally until about 2005.  The train under the Christmas tree is still run conventionally (to annoy the cats  ).

 

However, in 2005-6 I started using TMCC.  I'm no stranger to technology, having been in the IT industry for 35 years as a programmer, consultant, and project / program manager.  TMCC is simple, does everything I need, and is reliable.  As far as I'm concerned, it's right in my technology sweet-spot. 

 

Back in 2011, I held an open house in which everyone age 6 and up (even mothers with babies in arms) ran trains.  It took about 30 seconds of instruction, but everyone had a blast, and no trains were harmed! 

 

Now, should everyone be forced to adopt command control?  Heck, no.  Do what makes you happy and comfortable.  But fear shouldn't be part of the equation here.

 

Have fun with your trains.

 

George

If I had a layout that was as big as some I have seen posted on the forum I would, probably, go with the remote running. Some of the layouts that are very  long and two tiered it wouldn't be practical to just use a transformer like ZW but my layout is relatively small and low budget. Have lots of engines though.

I'm in no way "afraid" of command control, I'm just not particularly interested in it.  I've never had a layout that I felt was large enough to "need" it or justify the expense.  In O gauge my interests have run towards pre-command trains, and with HO, I have only 2 engines with decoders installed- only because they came that way from the factory. 

As far as sound- honestly, I find it annoying after a while.  I've been on and around a lot of real trains, both steam and diesel, from the latest ES44's to Geeps and an Alco switcher.  No model sound comes close, to my ears.  The small speakers just can't replicate the low-pitched sounds- a couple years ago I stood next to an idling CSX AC6000, and you could literally feel the sound.  While recent sound systems like PS3 and Tsunami are way better than past attempts, they still sound "tinny" to me.  Just my personal opinion- others enjoy them, that's great.  But just because someone chooses not to run with command control, doesn't mean they're "afraid".  It probably just means they're not interested.

Scared is sort of a relative term.  I still use TMCC.  I'm comfortable with it; it does what I need it to do.  Legacy and other newer stuff is overkill for what I want out of the hobby. I don't see myself buying the expensive engines, again a relative term, but more that $600.00 (currently) for an engine is expensive. So, it sort of depends what you want to get out of the hobby. Professionally, I work with computers, hardware, software, etc. daily, so I'm not afraid of the latest, newest technology.  TMCC just works better for me.  Heck, I still use a flip phone, it does what I need it to do.

Steve

I must say, I've had TMCC for years laying on the shelf. One day a friend came over and hooked it up for me.. oh yaa.. this is nice. Now that's all I use ! The LionChief and TMCC is all I have now. The kids like it so much more too.. Well worth the money in my book..

I twisted ZW handles and that was fine.  I had my misgivings when TMCC was introduced, but once I tried it, I was hooked.  I ditched twisting the ZW handles forever in favor of TMCC/DCS years ago and never looked back.  Bottom line:  Don't knock Command Control if you haven't tried it.  If you have, and still prefer the ZW, more power to you.  To each their own.

Terry,

 

I have not had your unfortunate experience with command engines.  Mine have worked right out of the box.  I buy most of my trains by mail order because there aren't any nearby dealers.  Most of my friends at my 3-rail club also don't have problems with their trains.

 

At my club, the G&O, we have found that when an engine doesn't run the problem is more likely with the layout than the engine.  There is a short or the track is dirty.  Sometimes one engine will run on dirty track and another won't move.  Another problem that affects some Lionel engines, but not all, is a poor TMCC signal.  The steps to correct this has been discussed many times on this forum.

 

Another source of poor performance, both on my home layout and at the club, is dirty wheels.  Engines just out of the box sometimes need their wheels cleaned.  I had a brand new engine that just would not respond when I first put it on the track. I cleaned the wheels and it ran like a champ.

 

Another problem that I frequently see at the club is that Program/Run switch on Lionel engines is in the Program mode when it comes out of the box.   MTH PS-2 command engines sometimes don't run because the battery is dead. I changed all my PS-2 engine batteries to BCRs.  This is not a problem with PS-3 engines.

 

I hope that this helps.

 

NH Joe 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have not had the 

I just and I mean just switched to Command and people should flock to a command layout which is much easier than having to know which switch controls which block of track.

"Staggeringly unreliable" - since when? On what planet?

 

Lionel's system is friendlier that MTH's (I'm familiar with both; I prefer TMCC and its offspring), but DCS/PS2/3 is also a proven system, but fussier.

 

But both of them are "staggering" only in their enhancement to the O-gauge experience. I might not - no, would not - be in O-gauge today if it was all still F-N-R.

 

I could live without Command (I can, indeed, live without the sound), but all of my locos would be converted to straight DC if I lost TMCC, etc. No F-N-R, please.

 

====

 

Funny how people can go ballistic over something as simple as using Command Control, yet pull out and use a cell phone that, technologically, makes Legacy and DCS look like oxcart-tech.

 

And those phones? About as unfriendly as "tech" gets; I haven't a clue beyond making a call. So, model RR command systems? Hammer-and-nail stuff, by comparison.

 

 

 

The only thing that scares me is the price. Legacy engines are a bit more than I want to pay and the Legacy remote is a little up there too.

Maybe one day when that money tree starts growing in my back yard. I may buy the Cab1-L from a friend who is a authorized Lionel dealer/tech. He can get me a pretty good price, but until then I'm buying a Lionel Lionchief Plus GP7 from a friend in my club.

If I were to start today I possibly would go Command.  But that is not where I am.  With 40 or 50 engines and a conventional control 35 year old layout, converting is not reasonable. 

 

I would have to spend more for a couple of Command engines and controllers than my whole collection cost me, almost all 40s, and 50s Lionel and Marx.  I would have to make the Command run with the existing conventional.  Most of my conventional gear is worth more by a long shot, than I paid and probably will at least hold its value.  Try getting just some of value out of obsolete Command stuff in just 10 years. 

 

Fancy electronic model trains are going to go the way of modern integrated electronics, enjoy them a few years then into the dumpster.  My old discrete transistor 70s two channel stereo gear is worth its new 70s, $600- $800 each price still today and repairable.  Most modern electrics have one of kind chips and can not be repaired.

 

Besides I enjoy planing, scratch building and retrofitting junkers as much as operating and my layout has 27 switches and operates 5 locos and a trolley at a time with lots of operating accessories.

 

Scared is not an issue.

 

Charlie

 

Conventional is boring......

the future is Bluetooth 4!

I do use TMCC to operate my post war 022 switches and conventionally vary the track voltage of my conventional trains. I have many UCS tracks, but only one is operated by TMCC via an SC2. It's very good for being able to see my trains running from different points of view. It's also good to be able to change the routes of my trains without sitting at a control panel. I have one TMCC engine left in my inventory. I do not want 18 constant volts in the track burning out the vintage bulbs in the rolling stock the TMCC engine would be pulling. When I flip the engine to conventional it won't run because it detects the TMCC signal that is used to operate the switch tracks and gets confused. I can't turn off the command base because then I can't operate my switch tracks. So for me TMCC to control 022's and vary track voltage for conventional engines is as far as it will go.

I like being bored...

 

...and the future always looks better on TV.

 

Rusty

Interesting topic....   When I helped with starting a new O Gauge Club, North Central O Gaugers, in Antioch, Ill. back in 2000, we had both conventional and command.  We ran at many shopping malls, schools, libraries, etc.  Even though we had our modular layout, eventually two, sometimes we still ran with tubular placed on the floor in large set up for the "traditional" feel for observers.  We ran both command and conventional, though the TMCC was most favored, and most used.  I regularly gave my Cab 1 to kids and, after explaining the use of it, they had loads of fun controlling my engines.  Never had an accident, but more fun with children and their parents everywhere we went.  "Run what ya brung, have more fun....."

 

Jesse

I can see where the other members are coming from -  I've worked with a club layout based at a local retirement village. Most members were far more comfortable with what they'd been working with all their lives; few were interested in command control. They weren't comfortable with their perception of how 18 constant volts to the track would affect their older equipment. While some appreciated it would be easier to run a remote, they definitely didn't prefer it, and found the setting-up or rather the retro-fitting to be baffling. There were a fair amount of jokes about similar challenges in 'programming their VCRs'... I helped give them what they wanted. I recognize this can't be extrapolated; it's just one experience.

 

I personally prefer running my layout conventionally but again that's just my preference...

Oh yeah, today I have a 24ft X 28ft layout with multiple levels, five mains and many side tracks, yards.  I have more conventional PW engines than modern TMCC/MTH, along with many Lionel Prewar.  I run both TMCC and conventional together all the time, along with converting some PS1 MTH to ERR for better running.  I have an older ZW with the added meter and four 180 bricks for power, TPC 400, etc.  But, I still run with two/three lines designated for TMCC and the rest for conventional.  I may not be getting the full advantage of ALL the sounds, but as others, have found I tend to turn them down anyway.  As stated by so many, it is all for the enjoyment of running trains, and for the enjoyment of the young 'ens as well as those of us who have been in the hobby for most of our extended lives. 

I think that Lionel could have done a much better job in the "packaging" of their system. Now, since it evolved over a number of years, I realize that may never have been possible but I think that a very simple diagram (or youtube video) showing each piece and what it's function is would have helped.

Compounding the problem is that you have 2nd and 3rd gen of the some items (eg. cab1-cab-2, powermaster-legacy powermaster) which makes it even more confusing to the newbie.

 

I am amazed that this Clyde Coil site still functions:

http://www.coilcouplers.com/tmc/tmc.html

Excellent to have fun and learn how to use a Cab 1

I first joined the command control club in the early part of this century (sounds funny saying that) with DCS and shortly thereafter with TMCC. The benefits were that I could control trains with handheld remotes and activate all the features each command-control-equipped engine possessed. It was great fun when the systems worked. The disadvantage was the in-ordinate amount of time it took to get the systems to function optimally, although TMCC worked pretty much flawlessly from day one.

 

Then, came Legacy around 2007/2008. I adopted it early and couldn't get it work at all. With more important and life-changing events occurring, I left the hobby in 2009, and returned in 2012. I then had my Legacy system upgraded and it's working great. DCS is also working great. But, with each system there are challenges and frustrations, probably due to the fact I don't run trains that often, and when I do go to the basement I can't remember how to program or access the various manufacturers' engines. After spending some time figuring things out, and asking questions on the technical forums, I can usually get things working again.

 

Ideally, there would be one control system that controlled all manufactures engines. It would be simple and easy to use, no programming required, no upgrades, and have a digital readout.

I think it does in some regards. 

 

Expense-  More expensive to make an engine.  Quite an outlay to buy the Legacy or DCS system. 

 

Reliability - mostly this pertains to the "boards" in the engines.  The QSI Proto 1 clanks of death thing scared a lot of people off in my circles.  Even though PS1 was not command control it was a more complex and expensive to fix internal arrangement.  And it was dying in droves.  More features, more stuff to break.

 

"Computers" - a lot of people fear computers and just look at command control as computerized railroading.

 

Future of parts - People fear not being able to get the boards if the engine dies.  Already an issue.  Yes, some companies make replacements but, then the expense thing creeps in.

Software Maintenance - upgrading, maintaining and debugging software.  Lots of people hate that on their computers too.

 

 

 

 

Graz, I still htink this is the case.  I have offered to help Lionel but...no response.

Not sure about the ZW-L.  But for less money you can but Legacy and a Powermaster.  More slow speed control than you can ever use in both conventional and CC modes.  300 steps of speed in max setting.  I run a switching operation with it and it is great.

This made me laugh.  I work in IT too.  The last thing I want to do is debug my trains from a compute perspective hen I get home.  I like Legacy.  I never tried DCS and have nothing against it.  I am fine with what I have. 

 

This is what makes our hobby great.  To each his own.

For me it is a choice. I like old things, be it a toy train, and they are all toys, a car or a firearm. I'm 57, I own pre and post war Lionel only. I own pre and post war firearms as well. Even build my own flinlock pistols. Restored my first two model 'T"'s when I was 24 and won awards everywhere I went with them. I just love old tech. I don't belittle anyone who loves the modern, but it sure seems some do think we who love the old stuff are "afraid" of the new stuff. In my case, just not interested in it and plenty happy in what I have.

My problem is, I like it all.  $$$$

 

I know this is a 3-rail discussion (as is most discussions here), but doing 2-rail, the vast majority of people I know wouldn't dream of operating on a layout without some form of DCC.

Among the operations guys around here, I think if you said you had a large layout and inviting them for an op session and it got out you had no form of digital control, you might be hard-pressed to find anyone to show up.

As for my own layout, this is my first venture into DCC and it was a steep learning curve. I decided to keep it as simple as possible, meaning:

• No wireless ops
• Only the trains are wired up
• Turnouts are mechanically controlled, with blue points connected to op rods along the fascia

It's not that I feared using DCC for further stuff, I just wasn't familiar enough with the systems to troubleshoot if/when something went down. I decided that a 'pushbutton world' for everything wasn't worth the time, effort and expense to me.

That said, now that I have DCC, I would never go back.

If you're scared, get a dog!