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I hesitated before posting this new topic, but then plunged ahead because it occurred to me that it may turn out to be stunningly positive for OGR Magazine, model train manufacturers, our worldwide On-Line Forum community, and the hobby of model railroading in general.

The idea for this topic was inspired by the moving reply today by Frank (Moonson) about the enthusiasm he and his wife had for model railroading under the thread entitled: "Train Layout: No Dead Time," and the many positive posts over the years by most, if not all, of us about how family-oriented our hobby is. 

Although I doubt if there is empirical or statistical data to support the hypothesis that model railroaders have fewer divorces, I respectfully submit (lawyer's words LOL) that there is substantial anectodal data to support this hypothesis.

We can begin to build this considerable anectodal data with our contributions to this thread.

I will start us off by stating that, after practicing Domestic  Relations  Law in NY for 42 years, my model railroading activities have helped me stay married to the same woman now for 41 years.

One may ask: why is that?

First, our hobby is definitely family oriented. In my case, my parents loved Lionel trains, as did several of my other close relatives who, unlike me, had large layouts (my child hood layouts never extended beyond the classic 4 feet by 8 feet plywood board). Then, when my wife and I had young children in our 30s, the Lionel trains were resurrected, and then, as an adult male making money in a profession, the layout grew way beyond the limits of that original plywood board, and the train collection multiplied. Most importantly, the trains and layout gave me, and my son and daughter, a powerful common interest and, Thank God, my wife appreciated that. 

As I reflect on this (and I confess I'm really getting excited about this idea being a divorce lawyer), model trains and a layout can be like very strong glue that keeps the family together.

Speaking about my wife, Shawn, who is tolerant but not involved, with my layout (except when my 7 year old grandaughter plays with the farm animals and figures on my layout or gives her Shopkins rides in a gondola), I once overheard her say the following: "When Arnold is downstairs with his trains, at least I know he is at home and not involved with some other woman."

I think my wife is very wise.

And, I bet that many of you have spouses who have said something similar.

And, I bet many of you have things to say that support the hypothesis that model railroading means fewer divorces. I would love to hear your comments about this topic.

Some of you may feel differently, and I would love to hear your opinions too. A couple of possible negatives with model raiilroading for a marriage come to mind. One is that spending money recklessly on trains could be disastrous for a marriage. After all, we must use our common sense and remember WE CAN'T EAT TRAINS! LOL. Another negative could be to build our layout like the Richard Dreyfus character built the mountain in his house in the movie Close Encounters of a Third Kind! LOL! No, we must not be that obsessed when we build our layouts if we want to have happy marriages.

I respectfully submit that we stay within a reasonable budget with our train collections, make our layouts beautiful and charming adornments to our homes, and give our lovely wives all the attention they crave. 

I guess I'm a lucky model railroader because my wife likes some time alone when she can have her own space so she can read a book, do a crossword puzzle, go to her acting class (do her hobby), etc. Arnold

 

Last edited by Arnold D. Cribari
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Arnold,

I'm inclined to agree with your hypothesis. My wife and I have different interests but each of us respects the other's and we each spend our spare change as we please, but not to excess. Of course, our greatest interests are our children and grandchildren, all of whom have enjoyed the model railroads in the basement. Nonetheless, a model railroad on the main floor might be where the line gets drawn - but I'm savvy enough not to even contemplate it... And, like your wife, mine knows exactly where I am and what I'm up to when I stumble down the stairs into the basement.

MELGAR

Well, I have heard it said that model rr wives do know where their husbands are.

I was told that John Armstrong had a slide he put up at some of his clinics.     I never saw it, but it is an urban legend that it was done.     It was a line graph with the horizontal axis the size of the layout (or collection) and the vertical axis the probability of divorce.     The line was a parabolic curve climbing higher geomentrically as it moved along the horizontal axis.

It is said to have brought lots of chuckles.

Strummer posted:

 A lot of other sites have a forum set aside for this kind of discussion.

I for one would much prefer to see topics being about trains, not about these "big picture" type of threads.

Couldn't (so many of) these types of threads be put into the "miscellaneous" forum?

Just asking...

Mark in Oregon

 

Interesting thought, Mark. I just looked and saw no "Miscellaneous" Forum. 

You may want to put your last reply under "Forum Suggestion Box," which is the last Forum in the directory.

Just a suggestion, Arnold 

 

Last edited by Arnold D. Cribari
Strummer posted:

 A lot of other sites have a forum set aside for this kind of discussion.

I for one would much prefer to see topics being about trains, not about these "big picture" type of threads.

Couldn't (so many of) these types of threads be put into the "miscellaneous" forum?

Just asking...

Mark in Oregon

 

Couldn't you just not read the threads who's title doesn't interest you?  It's so simple even I can do it.  

If the mods don't like it they'll move it or lock it.

Back to the topic at hand.  It's an interesting hypothesis but I feel it's more about the people in the marriage than the hobby.   The hobby could be any hobby.  Perhaps the question is how many couples are both in the hobby and how many of their relationships survived the test of time.

-Greg

I would submit, counselor, there is no direct correlation between model railroading and divorce. 

  • Most wives of adult men playing with trains need not worry about their husbands attracting other women, the very reason most teen boys put away their childhood trains or wind up as bachelors; a wife's lack of  concern as long as her husband is in the attic, basement or garage is just an expression of understanding most people need some space in healthy relationships. 
  • Financial stress can lead to divorce, but reckless spending on trains would be but a symptom of poor judgment that would manifest in other affairs. 
  • Likewise emotional neglect in a marriage would occur whether a husband allowed vocation or avocation to take priority over his wife; if care for her feelings and well-being does not come first, nothing else matters. 

 Many years ago, I clipped and saved one of the late Dr. Billy Graham's newspaper advice columns that seemed to capture better than I could articulate a formula for marital success.  Rather than risk copyright infringement by attaching an image of that column, let me just say he mentioned the things that are important are:

  • a commitment that doesn't fade regardless of circumstances.
  • consideration in putting the needs of the other above your own desires (and he mentions selfishness as the greatest enemy of lasting love).
  • communication so each knows what is important to the other, including the little things.
  • a shared system of values and beliefs.

 Model railroading is incidental if these important aspects of a relationship are cultivated and nurtured.

What, me worry?

Last edited by Alfred E Neuman

I am perfectly fine with whatever the moderators decide to do.

My purposes, whenever I post at topic, is to Promote Our Hobby Big Time, and/or entertain, and/or express my enthusiasm for our hobby, and/or say something I think is interesting and I think others will find interesting.

I love this Forum and believe the moderators have done an excellent job regulating it.

I also happen to love it when others respectfully express a different point of view than mine, which IMO is what Mark and a couple of others have done so far. Arnold 

Alfred E Neuman posted:

I would submit, counselor, there is no direct correlation between model railroading and divorce. 

  • Most wives of adult men playing with trains need not worry about their husbands attracting other women, the very reason most teen boys put away their childhood trains or wind up as bachelors; a wife's lack of  concern as long as her husband is in the attic, basement or garage is just an expression of understanding most people need some space in healthy relationships. 
  • Financial stress can lead to divorce, but reckless spending on trains would be but a symptom of poor judgment that would manifest in other affairs. 
  • Likewise emotional neglect in a marriage would occur whether a husband allowed vocation or avocation to take priority over his wife; if care for her feelings and well-being does not come first, nothing else matters. 

 Many years ago, I clipped and saved one of the late Dr. Billy Graham's newspaper advice columns that seemed to capture better than I could articulate a formula for marital success.  Rather than risk copyright infringement by attaching an image of that column, let me just say he mentioned the things that are important are:

  • a commitment that doesn't fade regardless of circumstances.
  • consideration in putting the needs of the other above your own desires (and he mentions selfishness as the greatest enemy of lasting love).
  • communication so each knows what is important to the other, including the little things.
  • a shared system of values and beliefs.

 Model railroading is incidental if these important aspects of a relationship are cultivated and nurtured.

What, me worry?

Awesome reply, Mr. Neuman! 

I wonder though: Is Alfred E. Neuman your real name? Wasn't that name connected to Mad Magazine? LOL, Arnold

MELGAR posted:

Arnold,

As a domestic relations attorney, can you tell me if the reason that both parties may agree to stay together is because the trains and layouts cost less than the divorce?

MELGAR

In most instances, a  lot less than a hotly contested divorce that goes to trial, but usually not less than a mediated divorce or a collaborative divorce. Arnold

Last edited by Arnold D. Cribari

Arnold, I hate to say it, but unfortunately, many men have been divorced by their wives claiming' their husbands paid more attention to their trains, then them. 

On another forum, there are several members that now live alone and devote all their free time to the hobby.  They claim to be much happier and enjoying life more than ever'... So, not all wives love the fact of knowing their husband is in the basement.  It seems to me, that the intelligent ones don't mind sharing their husbands with trains, rather than other nefarious items...

My Wife and I have been together for about forty  years as well and I can't say my hobby helped  keep us together but it keeps me home at night.

Of course as all you toy train guys know all to well when all the young ladies hear about our ultra cool hobby they all come around like flies to an ice-cream cone. They just can't wait to get there hands on our controls.

Fortunately for my domestic life when  I have to chose to between taking a lady out or buying a new engine they lose every time.

There is no lady that could ever take me away from the beauty I have at home who pushes  me to clean up that  messy platform in the basement.   Who could ask for more?

Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Arnold, I hate to say it, but unfortunately, many men have been divorced by their wives claiming' their husbands paid more attention to their trains, then them. 

On another forum, there are several members that now live alone and devote all their free time to the hobby.  They claim to be much happier and enjoying life more than ever'... So, not all wives love the fact of knowing their husband is in the basement.  It seems to me, that the intelligent ones don't mind sharing their husbands with trains, rather than other nefarious items...

Quarter Gauger 48, it saddens me  to read your above reply because I'm sure it's true and that others have suffered the breakdown of their marriages as you describe.

If the divorced men are now happy, that's a good thing.

Part of my motivation in starting this topic is to emphasize the family oriented aspect of our hobby, where adults and children can do it together and wholeheartedly enjoy it, at different levels, and bond and have common interest. Promoting family this way often, but not always, promotes good marriages, IMO.

I also agree that such bonding and common interest can happen with other things like sports and music. Indeed, that happened and still happens for me and my son when we play golf together, and happened and still happens for me and my daughter when she sings at Open Mics the songs I have written (this is a thrilling experience for me) while I play guitar to accompanying her.

For me, it just so happens that my 1st passionate interest with both of my children when they were toddlers was Lionel trains. I have tremendous gratitude to Lionel and our hobby for that and so does my wife. The trains gave me a foundation to have other passionate common interests with both children, like the golf and music. And, by the way, nothing was ever forced in the slightest. I simply introduced these activities to the kids, and they happen to like them when they were little, so we did them together. I am perfectly fine with their minimal interest today in the trains. Their only current interest as 30 somethings in the trains is that they both think it's hilarious that I still do the trains. LOL. What is even funnier is that I think they are correct! LMAO!

I also agree that the wives who see the benefits of their husbands engaging in a hobby at home are very wise.

Other benefits of our hobby now come to mind which, if more commonly known, would also promote marriages, IMO.

For instance, my wife and I know that for very young children to play with electric trains with adult supervision is very stimulating for them, and very likely promotes the healthy development of their brains. I recall other Forum members during the past 2 years saying similar things on other threads. 

I love to see a 2 year old with his/her hands on the throttles of a ZW. Look at their faces when they do that, and see them revel in the feelings of control and power it gives them. I believe every single brain cell of those toddlers is 100% engaged when they are doing  that, and that is very good for their mental development. That experience and those benefits continue today when our young children and grandchildren run LC and LC+ trains using the remote units, IMO.

My son, now 30 years old, was that 2 year old with both hands on the ZW throttles. Later on, his High School Physics teacher told my wife at a parent-teacher conference: "your son is awesome at Physics!" And, he graduated #2 in his class in Mechanical Engineering at SUNY Binghamton Engineering School. Hey, I'm just a proud dad, who believes Lionel trains starting at a very early age, which I also had, contributed to his mental development.

Incidentally, my son was beating me in chess at the age of 6, and was bored with running trains at the age of 10. That is because, unlike me, he was much more interested in opening up the trains to see how the various mechanisms of the 022 switch tracks, accessories and locomotives worked. This, in turn, got him interested in reading about the history of Lionel and its employees who invented these mechanisms, and also reading about other inventors like Tesla, at an early age.

Thanks to all of you who have read this reply. I am very interested in whatever you think about this subject regardless of whether it's positive or negative. I believe this Forum is a place where we can sincerely and respectfully share our views and possibly learn from each other. I, for one, have already learned a lot from some of your above replies. I thank you for that. Arnold

Last edited by Arnold D. Cribari

Arnold as usual I like your topic! I think what makes a good marriage is one that has room for two different personalities with different needs and interests that are nurtured and encouraged by each other rather than feeling threatened somehow by a diverging interest. My joy in my trains is largely because my dear wife supports and takes pride in my accomplishment! She is my sounding board and my cheerleader if I get frustrated! Her belief in my ability, wiring, landscaping etc is sometimes what keeps me moving forward! Sounds silly maybe but your topic prompted this realization! Thank you

 

 

Arnold as a Divorce  Lawyer you would appreciate this remark. First when my wife and I got married she already knew about the trains as she had seen long before we started dating so I have jokingly said over the past 36 years we have been married that she signed a  prenuptial agreement that she can be replaced but the trains can’t and I have the bumper sticker “My wife says if I buy one more train she will leave me. Gee I will miss her”. Like I said 36 + years together and still going strong. Two daughters and two grandchildren all have grown up with the trains. Now a new house and I have 2000 sq. ft of basement for the trains and she is still with me. I often still joke with her and friends when they see the trains about the agreement and bumper sticker.  I would not trade her for a truck load of trains.  Well maybe if they were NOB post War Lionel!!!

My father and I ran trains together all the time, built several layouts, and every Christmas/birthday brought more train items/trains. I inherited our trains when he passed away in 1978.  My two boys and daughter ran trains when they were growing up, sons helped me build our layout.  Yes, when the youngest son graduated from high school and moved out on his own, my first wife and I divorced.  But, it wasn't because of the trains!  My present beauty, friend, lifetime companion and I met on the Amtrak Texas Eagle over the 2003 Christmas holiday.   I boarded the Eagle in Chicago, she boarded in St. Louis around 21:00 hrs that night.  By chance, and Fate, we boarded the return Texas Eagle a week later, though we both had plans to stay in Houston with relatives longer.  With conversations and all night discussions of what we had in common, we kept in touch every day with calls before leaving for work, and late into the night.  She also had a Lionel set when a little girl, a set of PW from 1953 that I had in my collection.  Well, we wed December 26, 2006 and I have never been happier.  In 2007, while I worked managing a site in Terre Haute (we live in Tuttle, Oklahoma), she added on a 3 car garage to our house.  But, point is, she had a second story added, a 32ft by 28ft room.  A TRAIN ROOM!!  She knew I needed enough space for our layout, and with no basements, going up is the only answer.  Now, what a wonderful woman I have forever that she built such a large room for our trains!!

Jesse   TCA  12-68275  

To be fair, my wife is a Very patient, loving, caring woman. I freely admit that at times, I have pushed her patience beyond human endurance. I have a tendency to be obsessive in my collecting at times, and she has been my safety valve, whether it be military, guns, or trains. I wouldn't be where I am today, or envision being without her. Setting the record straight. 

I've been married to my wonderful bride for 31 years.  She has been supportive of my hobby from the very beginning.  We even spent one night on a railcar at the Chattanooga Choo Choo Hilton as part of our honeymoon!  

But I think if you look at all the factors that contribute to a healthy marriage, trains won't make the list, at least not mine.  I know lots of couples with great marriages that have no interest in trains. A shared faith life is number one for me.  

Here's another thought to deal with a spouse's possible objection to the cost of trains, and in doing so, possibly improving one's marriage. 

The purchase of a train can be used for motivation to make more money and be more financially successful at one's practice, business or job.

This needs to be communicated to one's spouse. For example, consider telling your wife you are using such a planned purchase as incentive to work harder, be more financially successful, etc. Tell her you won't buy the particular item until you have achieved whatever financial goal you have set for yourself. You can also tell her that you will  hold off your purchase until you first buy her something she wants.

The above does not always, but sometimes does, work. Also, it can be very difficult to achieve a particular financial goal.

This motivation or incentive is also tied in to the following, which is not easy for me to articulate. It has to do with the metaphor of a steam engine or diesel locomotive. They are very powerful, causing the earth to shake  thundering their way by. You are that powerful locomotive in the work you do to earn a living: a force to reckon with, indestructible, you overpower your competition, you are a winner, etc. These models are powerful symbols for us to inspire us to achieve our goals. LOL, Arnold

 

Well, I am a two-time loser. My first-wife tolerated my train layout - until I ended up expanding it all-over the basement, then it became a sore subject. She also made a point that I spent too much time and money on the trains and layout. In hindsight she was right: I did neglect home improvements as well as quality-time with her and family. But, these factors alone were not the cause of our divorce...that was more due to my second motorcycle that took up our 1-car garage. Memories of tearing down that layout are painful...10-years and good memories in the making.

My 2nd wife never liked trains or the hobby...but seemed to tolerate it as long it was confined to the basement. However, she was repulsed at the idea of having train-get-togethers, which was really a bummer for me. And, then I caught her ripping-up a train catalog; the look on her face that was pure evil.

Hopefully, one day, and assuming I recover from the 2nd divorce "shell-shock", I'll be able to have folks over again. Fortunately, my home was in my name only and I didn't have to tear-down my layout.

My advice: don't neglect your better half and don't be a space-hog. For every train purchase, buy her something nice, or take her out.

I am envious of guys who have or find a woman who share their passion in the hobby.

Last edited by Paul Kallus

Arnold, you bring up a good point that I forgot to mention.  Purchases made for trains has/is always met, and exceeded, with monies happily spent for jewelry.  I gladly acquire very nice pieces for my bride, and many times had to convince her to make purchases she liked when traveling abroad, unique items of beauty found nowhere else.  Happy wife makes for a happy railroading life!

Jesse   TCA 

Guitarmike posted:

Arnold,

I think it’s the other way around. A healthy , good marriage allows each spouse space to do “their “ thing. When the  commitment to each other remains number one, everything else will find its place.

I think the above is the key. My ex of 27 years was perfectly okay with my hobby.

Eventually, she decided she wanted to "be free to feel a deeper connection" with someone, so that was that.

Mark in Oregon

 

Well I wish there was an easy button for this topic.  I will share part of my story.  We got married in the Catholic Church. We had to take several weeks of classes with other couples that were also getting married. This gave us a strong starting point.

I ask my wife if she felt if model railroading was a plus or a negative. This hobby has been mostly my doing but she will help in the train room, if I ask.  My three children also were involved with model railroading but they all like taking family trips by train.  Long distance to Montrose, Colorado or day trips to New York, Washington DC, Chicago & Toronto, Canada.

She belongs to a pinochle card game group and she told me that her girl friends husbands spend a lot more on golf than I do on model trains.  Looks like the ladies talk about us!  That is a scary thought.

Below: this is an anniversary photo from Facebook.

40 Years

Gary

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Last edited by trainroomgary
MELGAR posted:

Arnold,

I'm inclined to agree with your hypothesis. My wife and I have different interests but each of us respects the other's and we each spend our spare change as we please, but not to excess. Of course, our greatest interests are our children and grandchildren, all of whom have enjoyed the model railroads in the basement. Nonetheless, a model railroad on the main floor might be where the line gets drawn - but I'm savvy enough not to even contemplate it... And, like your wife, mine knows exactly where I am and what I'm up to when I stumble down the stairs into the basement.

MELGAR

Exactly my sentiments well spoken. My wife jokes about what I spend but never gets mad, I could have a worse habit.

trainroomgary posted:

Well I wish there was an easy button for this topic.  I will share part of my story.  We got married in the Catholic Church. We had to take several weeks of classes with other couples that were also getting married. This gave us a strong starting point.

I ask my wife if she felt if model railroading was a plus or a negative. This hobby has been mostly my doing but she will help in the train room, if I ask.  My three children also were involved with model railroading but they all like taking family trips by train.  Long distance to Montrose, Colorado or day trips to New York, Washington DC, Chicago & Toronto, Canada.

She belongs to a pinochle card game group and she told me that her girl friends husbands spend a lot more on golf than I do on model trains.  Looks like the ladies talk about us!  That is a scary thought.

Below this is a anniversary photo from Facebook.

40 Years

Gary

Yes women talk about us constantly. A fellow wanted to join my train club until his wife found out. After going off on how much money we were wasting. (That word came out of her mouth alot) I never saw him again until we moved the club years later. I guess he dumped her. Nice wedding photo by the way.

I was married 9 years. '85 to '94. The hobby was never an issue in any way. We really got along well, except at the end (duh), and that wasn't really vicious - divorces can happen for all sorts of reasons, some subtle (us), some obvious.

But - this is the sort of "self-sufficient" hobby that can indeed lead to social isolation. I see it at train shows all the time. Not true of everyone, of course.

So I'd say that the trains were simply irrelevant, per my divorce.

I can see how this could be true.  Modelers tend to spend their $$ on trains instead of at bars and womanizing outside of their marriages IMHO.  Not saying that doesnt happen, but I think it happens less when one has other hobbies to consume ones funds and time.  Having a wife that tollerates the hobby is a whole nother story.  I have seen some very long term marriages where the wife was just as involved in the hobby as her husband and contributed to the layout in many ways.  And this is across the different scales and facets of the hobby.   Yes, model trains can be a social isolating hobby, one reason I loved it so much being autistic and prefering to be alone or with just small groups.      Mike the Aspie

If you have a strong relationship it doesn't really matter. When I started dating Vicky I had no idea she was from a railroad family. I was single for a long time. Dated a lot until we met. I traveled all the time for work, loved it so it was really hard to keep any kind of long thing going. We had one date and two days latter I was in Russia for three long weeks. including interviewing Gorbachev. But for the first time in my travels, I couldn't wait to get back and have another date with her. Found out her Pop was a welder for the Oakland Southern Pacific yard. Every summer from the time she was little, she would have breakfast with the crew in the welding shop. Her Pop cooked with his welding tool. She loves trains and has booked us on some wonderful train trips. Skip many years later. About to retire after 36 years. All my passports had to have extension pages put in them. I was in Sri Lanka when we got caught by the Tamil Tigers. They had guns to our heads and their foot on our drivers neck. I knew we were going to be killed. Our satellite phone had been out for days. No one knew where we were in that dark jungle that night. All I could think about was Vicky. She would never know were I died. It haunts we to this day. I really knew what love is about that night. Sorry I'm going on about this. It's all way bigger than trains. Don

Last edited by scale rail

A lady friend got the "time for a change" msg., as above, had to get her own house, and experienced a reversal of usual roles.  As a voracious reader as a kid reading ALL a newspaper, Dear Abby and Ann Landers telling all these women how to rip off their to-be ex's, They shut up when they divorced, l thought  it was stacked the other way.   He had a heart attack and stroke, and his next marriage did not happen, no relatives, so she was asked to be his, not thrilled, care giver driver.  I have often wondered how secure the marriages are on here when they talk about sneaking trains in the house.

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