Don't like the red paint on the new Lionel N&W J? Have it repainted.....

He does excellent work!  ☺

I think some guys are waiting to hear what Lionel plans to do about the stripe color issue. Maybe Lionel can cover the cost for the repaint.

I'm waiting for Lionel's answer. Certainly Harry would be a good option for Lionel to get to correct the paint especially if there are only a small number of complaints. They've worked with him before. 

Would this void the Lionel warranty?

Most likely unless they, Lionel, sanctions it. 

MartyE posted:

Most likely unless they, Lionel, sanctions it. 

This is not a Vision engine. Any authorized service station can do warranty work.  I assume Mr Muffins has a qualified service person.

Pete

Norton posted:

MartyE posted:

Most likely unless they, Lionel, sanctions it. 

This is not a Vision engine. Any authorized service station can do warranty work.  I assume Mr Muffins has a qualified service person.

Pete

Lionel has said in the past that removal of the shell does void the warranty. This was emphasized to me by Lionel personnel at the warehouse sale. How strictly they enforce this and whether Mr Muffin has made other arrangements is strictly between Lionel and Mr Muffin. 

It is worth mentioning that it could void the warranty. If Lionel uses Harry to fix the stripe I would assume Lionel would have no issue at that point. Again I would check with Lionel concerning their warranty policies.

Personally I think it's a great option Steve has for his customers and a great suggestion to Lionel. I made it myself in email correspondence. 

MartyE posted:

Norton posted:

MartyE posted:

Most likely unless they, Lionel, sanctions it. 

This is not a Vision engine. Any authorized service station can do warranty work.  I assume Mr Muffins has a qualified service person.

Pete

Lionel has said in the past that removal of the shell does void the warranty. This was emphasized to me by Lionel personnel at the warehouse sale. How strictly they enforce this and whether Mr Muffin has made other arrangements is strictly between Lionel and Mr Muffin. 

It is worth mentioning that it could void the warranty. If Lionel uses Harry to fix the stripe I would assume Lionel would have no issue at that point. Again I would check with Lionel concerning their warranty policies.

Personally I think it's a great option Steve has for his customers and a great suggestion to Lionel. I made it myself in email correspondence. 

Who said anything about pulling shells off?.......or is this just an assumption?.........Pat

Well I guess you could paint it with all the guts. I would assume it would be easier to remove the shell to more easily work with it. 

A buyer is expected to incur additional cost  for something incorrectly done by a manufacturer? Shouldn't the first resort to fixing such a problem and incurring any associated costs lie with the manufacturer followed by the seller with the buyer expected to foot the bill being the last resort?

Steve has at least offered his customers a solution for the J's incorrect color problem. 

What's the $ cost of all these issues to Lionel?

Kudos to Mr. Muffin.

Gerry

"A buyer is expected to incur additional cost  for something incorrectly done by a manufacturer?"

This is weathering, redoing the lettering and changing the stripe color.  At $70+ that's a bargain is another way of looking at it.  Caveat emptor when pre-ordering.

My thinking, if I'm paying $1399 for a engine , it should be correct, I shouldn't have to pay to get it right. Now what your offering is a fair deal, but still, I do not see why the consumer must go with out there engine ( guessing  at best ) 2 weeks+ and pay more money to have it done correctly when already paid over $1400 once you add in shipping and maybe even tax. 

Mr. Muffin,
Well, when all of you are paying money to get Harry to fix your paint, also get him to paint the headlight bezel correctly!

" it should be correct"

One problem is that one person's correct is another person's incorrect.  As a dealer and manufacturer you want your customers to be happy, but that's not always a straightforward deal.  Which is why accepting returns is probably a good part of the customer satisfaction equation. 

Some folks prefer to complain rather than return, which is not attractive or useful.  Some folks would like to return but dealers or manufacturers refuse which is even less attractive but useful to know about.

When I've had problems with a new problem (damage or failure), which has been perhaps three times in the last 30 years, the dealer has taken the unsatisfactory product back for full credit (local hobby shop and Charles Ro).  So I keep doing business with them, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars over the decades.  I'd say their decision making worked for both them and myself.

I too think it needs to fall back into Lionel's hands.  I wouldn't be too excited about going from a factory, what I assume is a pad printed number, to a decal where you can see that translucent square of the decal as seen in the first picture of the initial post.

Landsteiner posted:

" it should be correct"

One problem is that one person's correct is another person's incorrect.  

Unless a particular buyer is colorblind. That red stripe is incorrect for everybody,including Lionel. Who got it "correct" on the previous run.

Landsteiner posted:

"A buyer is expected to incur additional cost  for something incorrectly done by a manufacturer?"

This is weathering, redoing the lettering and changing the stripe color.  At $70+ that's a bargain is another way of looking at it.  Caveat emptor when pre-ordering.

But what if all the other engines you have aren't weathered because you don't care for weathering? Does it cost less than $70 if you forego the weathering or is the weathering advised to disguise that the original striping was painted over and the factory pad printing replaced with a decal?

One additional consideration, Landsteiner. is the striping on the new batch of coaches which just arrived in NC have that same hued color as the engine. Harry will likely repaint those too for those who want it but what will he charge for both the engine and those additional cars? I seriously doubt that cost will be a bargain in the minds of those who preordered both the engine AND the cars.

While i don't have this engine, I feel it is very BIG of the Muffins and Harry to offer this solution.

Well I am obviously an outlier as I would not have cared as long as the loco and cars looked good to my eye. I could care less about prototype and whether they matched previous models. Return them if you don’t like them. There are greater horror stories than getting a refund.🙏

Is this the current loco? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S-L8Lg_-Mw

If so, anyone who sees that red as "raspberry" clearly doesn't see colors the way I do.  It's a moderately bright red.  And while it may horrify some, it looks reasonably good to me .  But like I said, I'm not finicky about prototype or colors. I like brighter colors.  I'm a three railer with no real interest in the prototype.  Obviously if you are a "rivet counter" or other variant of scale modeler, you probably aren't going to share my views, but the notion that everyone agrees is obviously wrong.  I don't agree.  Looks fine to me. Modified by Harry looks great too.  

The red stripe really doesn't look very different from this restoration version of 611.  Pretty red or reddish and certainly not the faded brownish-red sometimes seen. Indeed, near the top of the page the loco stripe looks almost brown.  The tender stripe much further down the page looks closer to red.  Obviously depends on lighting, angle, and other variables, including the camera sensor I'd guess.  They probably used the paint information given them by N&S for restoration, no?

https://ogrforum.com/...611-progress?page=11

Harry didn't disassemble the engine.... 

Regardless of how anyone feels about the model as delivered, it says a lot that someone is at least offering a solution.  Harry's modeling skills are out of this world and I never pass up a chance to say hello to him on those occasions I can make it to York. 

Much more refreshing than the "I've got a problem for every solution" posts that often dominate this page.   

MrMuffin'sTrains posted:

Harry didn't disassemble the engine.... 

Wow Steve!  That's pretty cool.  I would have thought it would have been a lot easier to work without the guts.  

Thanks for posting that.

I wish Lionel had stepped up and done the right thing. From a distance that repainted J I'm sure looks fine but I can tell the yellow border is no longer laser straight and there is some overspray in places in the photos. That would bug me. 

Surefire posted:

I wish Lionel had stepped up and done the right thing. From a few feet that repainted J I'm sure looks fine but I can tell the yellow border is no longer laser straight and there is some overspray in places in the photos. That would bug me. 

The only way Lionel will fix this is for folks to call and politely let them know.  If they don't get enough complaints then it won't be worth it to makes new shells.  I don't want this to turn into another locked thread.  Steve and Harry have given us a good alternative.

I preordered this engine from Legacy Station and it was delivered to me as soon as it came out. It say in the box for almost a month then I paid to have it shipped back to Brian. He said he understood if I couldn’t get past the orange stripe. 

Just before Christmas, Mr. Muffin offered to have Harry weather an engine if you bought one. I decided that this might be my chance to get this engine and maybe somehow “hide” that awful orange. I requested that when I purchased it. 

The day after i bought it I got shipping notification that it was headed to Harry’s. Once Harry received it I got a personal phone call and he asked me what I meant by “hiding” the stripe which he could see was wrong. I wanted it more Tuscan. He said I’ll just restripe it for you. I paid for the decals and paint but the weathering was free. 

My engine (the one you see in the photos) is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I can’t wait to run it on my layout. I plan to post video on YouTube and post the link here. 

I’m very happy with Harry’s work and my decision to have it done. I’ve got a centerpiece to my N&W J collection. She will look awesome pulling my 18” Lionel aluminum passenger cars. I may send them to Harry some day and have them weathered. 😎

Thanks to Harry and Mr. Muffin for making this happen. I haven’t been to Mr. Muffin’s yet but when I visit I plan to get permission to run my weathered J on his layout. 

Too bad he didn't fix the headlight bezel too!
See my post above.

N&W 1218 posted:

I preordered this engine from Legacy Station and it was delivered to me as soon as it came out. It say in the box for almost a month then I paid to have it shipped back to Brian. He said he understood if I couldn’t get past the orange stripe. 

Just before Christmas, Mr. Muffin offered to have Harry weather an engine if you bought one. I decided that this might be my chance to get this engine and maybe somehow “hide” that awful orange. I requested that when I purchased it. 

The day after i bought it I got shipping notification that it was headed to Harry’s. Once Harry received it I got a personal phone call and he asked me what I meant by “hiding” the stripe which he could see was wrong. I wanted it more Tuscan. He said I’ll just restripe it for you. I paid for the decals and paint but the weathering was free. 

My engine (the one you see in the photos) is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I can’t wait to run it on my layout. I plan to post video on YouTube and post the link here. 

I’m very happy with Harry’s work and my decision to have it done. I’ve got a centerpiece to my N&W J collection. She will look awesome pulling my 18” Lionel aluminum passenger cars. I may send them to Harry some day and have them weathered. 😎

Thanks to Harry and Mr. Muffin for making this happen. I haven’t been to Mr. Muffin’s yet but when I visit I plan to get permission to run my weathered J on his layout. 

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for taking this big step and sharing the results with the rest of us. I bought 5 Js, and 3 of them are needing adjustment on the stripe (600, 603 and 611 Roanoke - I feel the 746 and Freedom Train were home runs for Lionel though and I love them).

I look forward to seeing your pics, especially the before weathering photos if you can share any. I like my engines shiny so I don’t have any that are weathered, maybe one day I’ll be as brave as the rest of you. 

Where did you get the decal set from That was used? Also what made you pick the color that was used - or did Harry pick that? Thanks!!

Harry picked the colors and got the decals. I’m thrilled with the results. I really don’t feel like the weathering has dulled the Queen of the Fleet at all. Here’s the video. https://youtu.be/tPI6Kv5-0lA

N&W 1218 posted:

Harry picked the colors and got the decals. I’m thrilled with the results. I really don’t feel like the weathering has dulled the Queen of the Fleet at all. Here’s the video. https://youtu.be/tPI6Kv5-0lA

Thanks for making, posting and sharing the video so quickly Kevin!  

I didn’t mean anything derogatory about weathering, I just said it’s my own personal preference not to that’s all. Yours looking incredible - did you have Harry blacken the rods too? The spirit of Roanoke version should have come with polished rods. 

Its great to know this option with Harry is out there. Currently I am still awaiting Lionel’s decision one way or the other. 

Harry took the ball and ran with it. We talked about the stripe repaint and he said that he was going to research the J and find some weathered shots to help him. I believe that she looks like a true Warhorse. My first TMCC engine was the #600 J in the Warhorse set. 😎

I’m still enjoying the NS Calendar with the autographed photo that you took by the way. 👍🏻

On this one, there doesn’t appear to be a clear answer for everyone. We are looking at colors over a sixty year period both for the actual engines and the various toys (please don’t be offended) that Lionel has made. It is not surprising that they don’t all match.

What was a surprise to us was how Lionel has almost come full circle with their colors. Take a look and I have not tried to go back and research actual production dates. This is from our collection.

The first N and W J produced in 1957... eerily close to the color used this time

One of my best friends claims that I caused his divorce by ordering this engine for him in 1982 from Charles Ro. Note the the difference from the earlier 746.

We got the 606 from our friend Don Jones. Lionel shows a date of 2002 for this TMCC engine.

Lionel catalogued the Pocahontas set about 2012; I am not sure because the aluminum passenger cars got hung up and the set took about three years to deliver. Ours made it in February, 2015.

The exception to Lionel products was this K-2 that Sunset produced, often referred to as a baby J. It was sometimes used to pull local passenger trains. Note the color.

And here is 2019. Paula (my wife who loves trains) was appalled. I thought that she was describing how wine tastes with babbling about neon orange, etc. That is what got us interested in pulling out our old Js to see what had been done in the past.

We have faith that Lionel realizes there is a problem and will handle it on their nickel. It is a long way from what most of us were expecting.

Bill Webb posted:

We have faith that Lionel realizes there is a problem and will handle it on their nickel.   

The fact that a reputable dealer has stepped up with an alternative to Lionel handling it on their nickle, is not a good sign.

RickO posted:

Bill Webb posted:

We have faith that Lionel realizes there is a problem and will handle it on their nickel.   

The fact that a reputable dealer has stepped up with an alternative to Lionel handling it on their nickle, is not a good sign.

Lionel will only do something if enough folks contact them. Based on what I've seen and heard nothing will most likely be done as not enough folks have contacted Lionel which simply boggles my mind as so many people are so good at complaining here why not do it where it makes the biggest difference, Lionel.  800-454-6635. Be courteous but let your voice be heard.

I don't have one of these engines and don't plan to get one, but I am intrigued by Harry's weathering job. A question for any of you that may have one or more of Harry's weathered engines - How does the weathering hold up to normal handling and smoke fluid that gets spilled or condensed out on the boiler?

Ken

I stand by my opinion. Not based on my poll but what I think. Rather not get into this again so Steve's thread doesn't get hijacked.