Double Heading Lionel Legacy Moguls

 Nice job Pete. I’ve grown to like the smaller locos. The extra details really add to it.

Looks good Pete   

That looks awesome, wish my legacy mogul had worked out.

Its funny Gary. I believe most all suffered from missing front side rod bushings (40 cents retail from Lionel, now NLA). Easy to make fortunately.

Thats all 713 needed. On 565 I tweeked the motor some. 565 is still not perfect but gets better the more I run it.

Pete

Nice work Pete! However, I still see some lurching going on, but its definitley an improvement.

I'm not being critical of your work by any means, its outta my league.  Rather, this is a testament to how screwed up the factory build was on these.

Rick, there is a slight lurch in 565 but it may be exacerbated by the second engine. 713 alone doesn't appear to have the same hesitation.

I think its is the drive train as it appears at same point in driver rotation. Drivers appear to be in quarter but might be a tad off.

I will do another video of 565 alone later.

Pete

Ok, here is 565 running light. Legacy speed step 1. Not perfect but not too bad. Important for me is I can double or triple head it with any other Legacy engine with an RCMC including my other Mogul and 10 wheelers. Something I can't do with the TMCC Moguls. They only run with themselves.

I believe Dave Olsen indicated one issue with these is the driver size and gear ratio  put them at the far edge of what Legacy speed matching was capable of. I can deal with the mechanical issues but can't do anything with software at this point. Maybe some time in the future we will be able to play with files like you can with DCS  engines.

Pete

SWEET thanks for sharing

I hope my future Legacy Mogul just has the bushing issue.

Make sure the brake shoes are not rubbing on the traction tires too. There is some adjustment possible with the bottom plate even though its held in place with flathead screws.

Pete

If that happens Pete, it'll get MTH tires in a flash!

Too thick traction tires might be a final piece of the puzzle. I just put on thinner ones and its even smoother. The traction tire wheel measured .040" larger in diameter than the rear driver w/o tires. Now they are the same. No idea what they are as I have bunch I picked up from a forum member in unmarked bags but I believe they are MTH.

BTW if you remove the bottom plate be careful if you remove the rear drivers. They are sprung and have a couple of springs under the bearings. The forward and center drivers don't have these springs.

Pete

Nice!!!

Pete, MTH tires are typically much thinner than Lionel.  I see Lionel tires of all thicknesses, so I don't know what drives the sizing.  I know that I've yet to have the tires on an MTH locomotive dragging on the brake shoes, and I've lost count of all the Lionel locomotives I've fixed that issue on!

C O O L ! I always liked those little 2-6-0s. 

Norton posted:

Ok, here is 565 running light. Legacy speed step 1. Not perfect but not too bad. Important for me is I can double or triple head it with any other Legacy engine with an RCMC including my other Mogul and 10 wheelers. Something I can't do with the TMCC Moguls. They only run with themselves.

I believe Dave Olsen indicated one issue with these is the driver size and gear ratio  put them at the far edge of what Legacy speed matching was capable of. I can deal with the mechanical issues but can't do anything with software at this point. Maybe some time in the future we will be able to play with files like you can with DCS  engines.

Pete

 

 

I should of sent my mogul to you instead of sending it to Lionel.

My B&M after return from Lionel. Not perfect, but within my personal tolerances and IMHO, a good-looking and good-running locomotive.

Looks good, I think I'd keep that.

I agree, looks good. Just check to make sure the brake shoes are not rubbing on the traction tires and it wouldn't hurt to put thinner tires on too. Thinner tires will make both front and rear drivers nearly the same diameter (within .001"-.002")  so they won't be fighting each other. The center blind driver is much smaller and doesn't actually contact the rail so has no effect.

Pete

They are beautiful.....I someone makes these again......I will be tempted.

Peter

Putnam Division posted:

They are beautiful.....I someone makes these again......I will be tempted.

Peter

My desire for one, hasn't changed.  I have confidence Dave at Lionel wouldn't let this happen again.  So Lionel, re-issues these. 

A side note, these are very hard to find in the secondary market.  Either the Legacy or older TMCC version.  You just don't see them out there.

Great videos Pete, and great information. I think the speed ratio someone had talked about(probably you and RickO) with these or some other engines, can't remember exact which ones, but know it was talked about.

I love having one myself (GT).  But even after coming back from Lionel it still has an issue.  Let my 7 year old drive it last night and he gave it a workout for sure.  It kept locking up in the forward direction.  It's run for a while as he'd start and stop it, but then after a stop it won't go anymore, the cab light would blink.  I'd reset it and it still wouldn't go forward, just blinking the light.  But if I reset it and back it up, even just a hair, then it would go forward just fine.  It seems like it still has some of the wrong kind of slop in the drive train that it binds just enough that the motor driver cuts out.  I almost wonder if it just gives up too quickly, but I haven't had any time to mess with it once he was done driving it.  Other then that I need to get one of John's YLB in it so the tender doesn't cut out on switches and it'll be ready for most service on my RR.

If you're ready to give up, I offer lowball prices on Legacy Moguls that need work.

sinclair posted:

I love having one myself (GT).  But even after coming back from Lionel it still has an issue.  Let my 7 year old drive it last night and he gave it a workout for sure.  It kept locking up in the forward direction.  It's run for a while as he'd start and stop it, but then after a stop it won't go anymore, the cab light would blink.  I'd reset it and it still wouldn't go forward, just blinking the light.  But if I reset it and back it up, even just a hair, then it would go forward just fine.  It seems like it still has some of the wrong kind of slop in the drive train that it binds just enough that the motor driver cuts out.  I almost wonder if it just gives up too quickly, but I haven't had any time to mess with it once he was done driving it.  Other then that I need to get one of John's YLB in it so the tender doesn't cut out on switches and it'll be ready for most service on my RR.

Your engine has the standard issues.  I don’t think when Lionel sent them back to the factory, they didn’t do anything.  It was all a big joke.  Some of the fixes Pete/Norton will help.

sinclair posted:

I love having one myself (GT).  But even after coming back from Lionel it still has an issue.  Let my 7 year old drive it last night and he gave it a workout for sure.  It kept locking up in the forward direction.  It's run for a while as he'd start and stop it, but then after a stop it won't go anymore, the cab light would blink.  I'd reset it and it still wouldn't go forward, just blinking the light.  But if I reset it and back it up, even just a hair, then it would go forward just fine.  It seems like it still has some of the wrong kind of slop in the drive train that it binds just enough that the motor driver cuts out.  I almost wonder if it just gives up too quickly, but I haven't had any time to mess with it once he was done driving it.  Other then that I need to get one of John's YLB in it so the tender doesn't cut out on switches and it'll be ready for most service on my RR.

Put the engine on its side and move the front drivers with a thumb. How much does it rotate? Sounds like it still needs rod bushings. This is how they run when the bushings are missing.

Pete

"and motor moved back for better gear engagement.

Would you elaborate in this, please?

RoyBoy posted:

"and motor moved back for better gear engagement.

Would you elaborate in this, please?

With the center drivers removed, looking up into the gearbox the motor worm is visible. It appears the point at which the worm gear engages the worm is very close to the end of the threads closest to the motor. I removed the two screws holding the motor to the mount and put a couple of washers between the motor and the mount moving it back about 1/16". May or may not have been necessary.

The center driver has just enough play so I know its not binding and there was grease in the gearbox from the factory.

Pete

superwarp1 posted:

I don’t think when Lionel sent them back to the factory, they didn’t do anything.  It was all a big joke. 

Maybe the returned moguls just sat in the warehouse in NC for three months, and then Lionel sent them back to their owners.

I believe thats called, "placebo effect" LOL!

RickO posted:

superwarp1 posted:

I don’t think when Lionel sent them back to the factory, they didn’t do anything.  It was all a big joke. 

Maybe the returned moguls just sat in the warehouse in NC for three months, and then Lionel sent them back to their owners.

I believe thats called, "placebo effect" LOL!

When I sent mine back, Lionel told me that I missed the window to send it back to China. So, I doubt that they tried to dupe their customers. But, it does sound like the China repair wasn't perfect. I got my money back, but I really wanted this locomotive; rather than my money back. I haven't ordered BTO since and never will.

Sorry, but I'm keeping mine.  It did run better after getting it back, so I know Lionel did something with them, but it may not have been enough.  It really lurched all over and would lock up after every stop, so just locking up sometimes when stopped before going forward is a giant improvement.  I'll have to check the play in it now to see if it needs a little more.

I just got the Legacy Mogul that I made the deal on months ago, delivery issues.   First thing I checked is the bushings, and sure enough, just like Pete says, they're totally missing from the front set of drivers!   The other two sets of drivers appear OK, so I just have to round up some suitable bushings or maybe some hex head shoulder screws that would fill the obviously much too large hole in the rod.

Pete, you mentioned they're "easy" to make.  Easy for you maybe, but do you have any dimensions of what you made?

I'm not even going to try to run it before addressing that issue, it's obvious how sloppy they are it would be an issue.

I'll just send you some John. PM me your address. I just finished a third one. It was mint and had no front bushings. This one is already spoken for. Smoke was intentionally turned off is preparation for shipping. 

Pete

Pete found a central Vermont mogul he applied his fixes to.  Ran perfectly on the video he sent.  Bushings on the first and third drivers, new traction tires and moved the motor back.  While not a Rutland, central Vermont is close enough.  I hope Pete comments and post that video.

Ok you beat my post.  Lol 

@Norton posted:

I'll just send you some John. PM me your address. I just finished a third one. It was mint and had no front bushings. This one is already spoken for. Smoke was intentionally turned off is preparation for shipping. 

 

Pete

That's a deal I can't pass up, thanks!   If mine runs as well as that one in your video, I'll be very pleased!  I paid $349 for it, so if I can make it run well, I'll be a happy camper.   It was worth a shot at that price.

Way to go Pete!...show em’ how it’s done!......I’ve already seen Pete’s Mogul fix,....he’s clearly found the cure!...outstanding!...

Pat

Where are you guys finding these moguls?

Adding the rear bushings and moving the motor back is overkill. The front ones are what Lionel left off. I ran out of MTH tires which are thinner but I suspect you have those in stock. I wanted to get front and rear drivers as close as possible to the same diameter, so they aren't fighting each other. As you can see the stock ones are pretty thick, thicker even than the ones they used on the TMCC engine.

Pete