Dreyfuss hudson issue, takes off

It may be a broken magnet on the tach reader. This is a common problem with TMCC Odyssey engines. There are a number of ways to repair this. Buy a new motor if available, replace the flywheel which requires a puller to get it off, or replace the motor driver with an ERR Cruise M.

It could also be a problem with engine not receiving the TMCC signal. Bad radio board or broken antenna wire (not likely).

Pete

Since it takes off in PGM, I don't think it's the flywheel sensor or magnets.  That's issue only surfaces after you crack the throttle in run mode.  Sounds like either no signal or a board issue.

Does the headlight blink when you power up?

Well the radio board had a leaked capacitor and the magnet ring was broken. Glued it back on, no chips, 3 peices, with caution... put a known good radio board in and all is well. It creeps pretty good, im not going to go any faster till I'm sure the glue is dried. 

I know it could be a gamble 

Be prepared to replace the magnet ring, it's very rare that a glue job lasts all that long on them.

If you want to stay with Odyssey this is one way to replace the magnet. Lionel sells magnets but to use them on the existing flywheel is not easy as the flywheel is a very tight fit and its easy to bend the motor shaft trying to put it back on. So Lionel offers the fix-it flywheel which is a looser fit and is held on with a set screw. If you already have a flywheel puller then this is most economical option. If you have to buy a puller then see if Lionel has the motor with flywheel for your engine.

Last option is just get an ERR Cruise M.

Pete

I haven't had any issues getting flywheels on and off, the worm gears is where I run into big problems!

Its not an issue if you have a puller. Most cost more than a replacement motor. Thats why I listed the options. I now have drill bits that will give a sliding fit so in the future I will just be reusing the old flywheel drilled and tapped for a set screw.

Pete

This engine is just full of gremlins. Now it runs fine, but will just stop randomly and I need to go to zero speed steps then crank it up again to get it moving..... guess its a cruise commander canadate.....

I think you need to check the handrails as they MUST have no continuity with the engine shell. Handrails serve as the antenna for the R2LC.

Ok, so I was going to put a cruise commander in this loco, and I can't get it to fit, even loose in the body. Any suggestions? Or do I buy a dcdr and call it a day?

You didn't need a full blown Cruise Commander only a Cruise M. If you think your R2LC is bad you can get those separately. You could still order a Cruise M and use the the R4LC that came with Cruise Commander. Then pick up another R4LC or R2LC C08 when needed. That way you won't have to tear everything out in the engine to fit the CC.

Pete

This engine also has running issues, i know the radio board works, i can do everything at low speeds, but as soon as I get moving at normal speed, the engine will stop, I rev it up and lunges forward then stop..... over heat issues? Bad FET in the dcdr? 

This has a DCDS for Odyssey. You said you tried to repair the magnet. I am surprised it runs at all. You probably are not getting consistant pulses from the magnet. I would suspect its a magnet issue, not a FET or triac.

The reason a CC or Cruise M was suggested was because it doesn't use the magnet. It lets you keep the existing motor in place. 

Thats why choices were given, new magnet or ERR board but you wouldn't need both.

Pete

Another choice is to simply do the flywheel repair correctly.  You can either pull the flywheel and glue a new replacement magnet on and replace the flywheel, or buy the Lionel "fix-it" flywheel and magnet and replace what's there.

FWIW, IMO gluing the magnet ring is never a long term solution.  I've seen a bunch of people try, longest I've ever seen it last is less than a year before it self-destructs again.

Truthfully, biggest issue is getting the flywheel off, putting them back on is easy if you own a drill press, it does a decent job as a bench press.  Before I got a real press, I used my drill press to put wheels and flywheels on pretty regularly.

@Norton posted:

This has a DCDS for Odyssey. You said you tried to repair the magnet. I am surprised it runs at all. You probably are not getting consistant pulses from the magnet. I would suspect its a magnet issue, not a FET or triac.

The reason a CC or Cruise M was suggested was because it doesn't use the magnet. It lets you keep the existing motor in place. 

Thats why choices were given, new magnet or ERR board but you wouldn't need both.

Pete

 

It creeps just fine, which tells me the magnet is fine, it will cruise just fine at the beginning but after about 10-15sec of runtime, it stops.

It responds to control, which tells me the radio is fine. After it stops, I can see the headlight flicker as I give speed commands, then randomly (cool off) it will move down the rails, then stop again. 

I had the CC I bought for a MTH Y6b conversion. I thought of just putting it in the dreyfuss since it would fix all of the issues including the magnet ring. I guess I could take the heat sink off like John did, but I don't want to burn it up. 

You can't run it without a heatsink in something the size of the Dreyfuss, it'll smoke it in no time.

Really, you want the CC-M for this job if you're replacing the DCDS, you're doing it the hard way with the Cruise Commander.

BTW, just because it runs at low speed, that is NOT telling you the magnet and sensor is fine.  The spacing and magnetic force is more critical at higher flywheel RPM.

There's two ways to fix these.  One is to throw parts at it until it runs, the other is to diagnose the actual failure and replace that part.

I'm still not convinced it isn't the R2LC, did you swap that?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Another choice is to simply do the flywheel repair correctly.  You can either pull the flywheel and glue a new replacement magnet on and replace the flywheel, or buy the Lionel "fix-it" flywheel and magnet and replace what's there.

FWIW, IMO gluing the magnet ring is never a long term solution.  I've seen a bunch of people try, longest I've ever seen it last is less than a year before it self-destructs again.

Truthfully, biggest issue is getting the flywheel off, putting them back on is easy if you own a drill press, it does a decent job as a bench press.  Before I got a real press, I used my drill press to put wheels and flywheels on pretty regularly.

I think the driver board is bad too, the original radio board had a leaky cap, and a little burn mark on the underside of the shell, if that happens then the driver board may have taken a hit too. I used a spare radio board to do the testing, i was worried it may get fried if the driver board is bad..... do you think its as simple as a power FET overheating? I'd like to make the CC fit if possible.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can't run it without a heatsink in something the size of the Dreyfuss, it'll smoke it in no time.

Really, you want the CC-M for this job if you're replacing the DCDS, you're doing it the hard way with the Cruise Commander.

BTW, just because it runs at low speed, that is NOT telling you the magnet and sensor is fine.  The spacing and magnetic force is more critical at higher flywheel RPM.

There's two ways to fix these.  One is to throw parts at it until it runs, the other is to diagnose the actual failure and replace that part.

I'm still not convinced it isn't the R2LC, did you swap that?

So a CC M is a drop in replacement? Yea, guess I will save the CC for the big Y6b. I will order a CC-M, glad I didn't cut anything yet! 

Thanks, I'm still learning all the products ERR has. It says generic as the CC-M type, is that the one I want?

Thanks again

You want this one.

Cruise Commander M Kit - Generic Modular TMCC
(Works for Steam & Diesel) With or Without IR Tether         99.95
 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's two ways to fix these.  One is to throw parts at it until it runs, the other is to diagnose the actual failure and replace that part.

Sounds like we're taking the throw parts at it course.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You want this one.

Cruise Commander M Kit - Generic Modular TMCC
(Works for Steam & Diesel) With or Without IR Tether         99.95
 

Sounds like we're taking the throw parts at it course.

I just don't want to deal with the old odyssey and a magnet issue again. I thought better performance was had by using the CC-M?

The motherboard is the only unknown, but other than a dielectric stain from the cap, its pretty simple to ring out.

I have the Y6b and a T1 reading to upgrade too. The T1 is a pullmoor. So I have a ac commander for it. It has RS4, so should be a nice runner. The Y6b will need some new lamps or wire some in series then replace the headlight and backup light. Fun fun

You will get better low speed performance with the CC-M, that is true.  You get even better performance by buying a brand new Legacy model, but that's just throwing even more money at the problem.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You will get better low speed performance with the CC-M, that is true.  You get even better performance by buying a brand new Legacy model, but that's just throwing even more money at the problem.

I got this basket case for $50. So I'm still ahead of the game.

Some stanchions were broke on the antenna, I was just going to ca glue them, any RF issues with that?

No RF issues, but I think you're going to find that the CA adhesive doesn't adhere to that type of plastic well.  Been there, done that, didn't work that well.

What the better glue to use?

I haven't found a glue that works well on those.  They appear to be Polypropylene which obviously seems impervious to CA adhesive, it's what the Loctite CA adhesive is packaged in!

Loctite All-Plastic Super Glue is supposed to work with Polypropylene, I am going to have to try that on my broken handrails.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I haven't found a glue that works well on those.  They appear to be Polypropylene which obviously seems impervious to CA adhesive, it's what the Loctite CA adhesive is packaged in!

Loctite All-Plastic Super Glue is supposed to work with Polypropylene, I am going to have to try that on my broken handrails.

Thats what I have, will let you know

Where are the stanchions broken, at the stalk or around the handrail? If the latter just put a dab of JB Weld around the handrail.

Pete

At the base, going into the engine

Lionel has some replacements whenever they get back online. 

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...tanchion&match=0

Pete

Thanks pete

I was looking at the CCM manual before I get it, the black 4 pin motor connector is easy enough to transfer from the 6 pin I have now. The mother board breaks everything out nicely. But aside from the stright white 4 position connector (which I assume i can leave in the order its in), I don't see where to connect the serial from the CCM to. I would doubt that splicing it into the IR is correct. Can you help out someone thats over thinking it?

If you look again at the manual, you'll see they supply a 10-pin connector with two wires.  The wire in pin-1 of that connector is routed to pin-24 of the R2LC socket to pick up the serial data.

I think there are some examples in the manual but I and most others solder the wire to the connector pin the R4LC plugs into at pin 24. Pin 24 is at the opposite end and row from pin 1 which is identified with the square circuit contact vs round for all the rest.

edit, what John said.

Pete

Ok thanks guys. Yea without having it in front of me, it was hard to visualize. Now the 4 pin connector from the motherboard to the old driver, do I need to move pins around for the CCM? The wires are 1 to1, in the harness.

The white 4-pin connector is the same, just plug it into the CC-M.

This train is a pain. So I installed the CCM, now it keeps tripping the breaker every time I connect center rail power to the power input of the 4 pin and 2 pin black molex plugs.

There are two black wires that provide power from the main driver area. One rings out to the rollers the other is soldered to the mother board to where the chuff switch would go.

If I leave the hot disconnected to the molex plugs, just the lights energize. As soon as the hot is connected, trips the power.

Any ideas?

So I pulled the 4pin molex off the ccm, no trip, pulled all connectors off the ccm and just plugged the 4 pin molex in, trip again, looked at the back of the board, no shorts. Could I just have a bad ccm? Resistance between hot and ground on the ccm is a 1.3m ohms using a fluke process meter even with the board off the engine.

could it be grounding out through the FETs?