Engine: Two Speeds Only - - Stop and Full Bore??

Sounds like you have a slightly older TMCC model with the TAS EOB electronics.  Missing the tach signal will do exactly what you describe in command mode.  In conventional, it's running as fast as it can for the transformer voltage.

If this is one of the newer ones with the ERR Cruise Commander, try a reconfiguration.

STEP 1: Move switch on locomotive from run to program.
STEP 2: Turn on Command Base.
STEP 3: Place locomotive on track, then turn on power to track.
STEP 4: Press “ENG” then input locomotive ID#. Press “SET”.
STEP 5: Press ”ENG” then input locomotive ID# again.
STEP 6: Press “AUX 1”, 4 (steam locomotive with smoke)
STEP 7: Turn off power to track, wait ten seconds.
STEP 8: Remove locomotive from track, move switch from program to run.
STEP 9: Place locomotive back on track. Turn power on to track.
STEP 10: Press “ENG” and ID#, then operate as normal.

Thank-you, John.

I followed your instructions but there is a hiccup. Probably not a significant one. On the Legacy remote, pressing the "AUX1" button brings up icons on the display. The one corresponding to the position of "4" is actually not "steam locomotive with smoke" but rather the volume down icon.

The result seems the same as before. The engine responds to the remote, including shutdown, but not the throttle. It does not cycle through neutral as a conventional locomotive would but stops when the stop button is pressed and moves in reverse when the throttle is again touched without a second press of the stop button on the remote.

So, it seems it is running in command mode but will only make a speed change when the track voltage is varied with a manual change to the transformer, i.e., just like a conventional engine.

Your help is most appreciated.

Terry

Sounds like the remote may need fresh batteries. Also you are using your legacy remote in TMCC or CAB1 mode?

Batteries are fresh, Chuck. I've tried both CAB1 and TMCC. Seems the same.

All seems really good, except for the throttle thing. The engine shuts down by pressing the shut down icon on the remote. It does not start up when the start button is pressed though. To get it to start, I have to address the engine ID# then nudge the red throttle button just a twitch. That starts it into motion at whatever the track voltage is set to with the transformer. If near 18v, of course, it rockets off like a jackrabbit. If the voltage is low, it starts off very nicely. Curiously, the red button has another effect. While the engine will not respond to speed changes with the red button, rotating it will induce the labored chuffing effect. The plus and minus icons turn smoke off/on. Crewtalk button works. Water sounds works.

But,to control speed, it seems I must use the transformer throttle.

Well then I would say the problem is the Train America Engineer on Board circuit board. I have had problems with a couple where they ran fine for 5-10 minutes then took off with no throttle control. Sound like your is doing the same thing. I had to gut the engines and start over with a Electric RR. Cruise Commander. 

Did you try setting the stall speed with the cab-1?   It's been so long I forget but  goes something like "set"  scroll down with the red knob and set again.

The symptoms of it running OK in conventional and having either stopped or full speed in command are about 90% or more a tach sensor issue.  Either a wire is broken, the sensor is out of position, or perhaps the tach tape is dried up and fallen off.  Don't laugh, I just fixed one that the tape got loose and when the flywheel moved, it just peeled it right off.  Obviously, it could be the sensor board or the EOB board, but I'd exhaust the simple and more likely stuff first.

Thanks, John.

Not sure what to do about it though. I already have two engines out for repair.

Too bad there weren't mechanic's manuals with these things. For many, a trip to a service center is all it takes. In my neck of the woods, that just isn't possible.

The TAS manuals are posted in the documentation thread that is pinned to the top of this forum.

I looked up this engine. It's listed with ERR cruise. The engines ID is 1. The first thing most people change is the engines ID once it runs initially out of the box. Is this engine new or new to you ?  Has it ever run properly in command ?   You stated it responds to the transformer as far as speed. If possible can you disconnect your Legacy or TMCC setup from your layout and just run it conventionally to check all functions as to how it runs. If it runs Okay. Try something simple like changing the engines ID number and see if it responds with the correct whistle toots as described in the manual. I'd stick with Cab 1 TMCC for this just to keep it simple. From what I looked up the engine has ERR cruise. Use the reset feature as described in the manual to program the engines features. 

 I'm sure the guys on here can solve this. I think sometimes you have to make sure the basic things work to figure these things out. The more info the better. I did an ERR conversion a while back that did the exact thing your describing. The reason I opened the thread. After numerous e mails the problem wasn't solved. I was adding ERR to an engine that had TMCC with Odyssey and a wireless tether. The instructions on paper were very vague as far as wiring. I realize it's impossible to have detailed instructions to convert every engine ever produced. I finally sent the engine directly to them. I was told Jon Z figured out the problem. It runs fine now. I don't own any 3rd rail engine but I believe the ERR hookup is fairly basic. Mine had a wireless tether  and it probably was straightforward with the proper instructions.

 With a 3rd rail engine. Everything should be in the tender as far as electronics. Should be fairly easy to open it up and make sure everything is properly seated. Pretty sure the antenna is the tender shell and you can check that as well.

What number did you use to look it up Dave?

FWIW, if it's really the ERR Cruise Commander, the fix would be to simply reprogram the ID and with the switch still in PGM, press AUX1 and then 4 for a steamer with smoke.  Switch back to run and it should run.

John, I'm guessing this is it.

Not a bad guess, he should try the reset I posted.

I do appreciate the help you folks are offering. That said, you're dealing pretty much with a rube. I have recently acquired both a Legacy controller and a DCS system. I am a beginner with both.

Specifics:

1/ Yes, that is the engine in question here, A Sunset/3^rd Rail CP D-10 4-6-0.

2/ Bought off ebay. Reputable seller. Supposedly new, removed from box for test run only. Certainly looked new and un-run to my eye. No warranty.

3/ I initially DID run it in conventional mode with the DCS. Seemed pretty good but perhaps slightly given to uncommanded speed variations? Slight, no big deal. Not extreme. No racing! No slamming to a halt. Just enough to make you ask yourself “Hmmm . . . why not constant in speed?”

4/ When I got the Legacy remote, the hope was to run it in TMCC. I have not changed its ID from #1 yet. I am running three other locomotives successfully in TMCC with this set up, two Atlas and another 3^rd rail. The other 3^rd Rail was programmed by the fellow I bought it from. The two Atlas' I programmed and changed ID#s to their road numbers. They are all responding as I understand they should, i.e., their speed is controlled with the Legacy remote. I don't have to touch the transformer after electrifying the track to 18v, more or less.

5/ I was confused by some of John's instructions because references seem inevitably to be made to CAB 1 hand controllers and the Legacy differs. The reset procedure as described in the 3^rd Rail manual also is written with a CAB1 in mind, not a Legacy. The differences are enough to confuse people such as myself who have never seen a CAB1 controller.

It also doesn't help that the engine does not have a switch for “RUN/PROGRAM,” even though the manual refers to one. It is actually labeled “ON/OFF.” I take it ON=RUN and OFF=PROGRAM. We won't discuss the difficulty of even getting to this switch. The access to it was not operable from the outside of the tender. I had to remove the tender shell to poke the access hatch from the inside to get to the switch as that hatch was stuck closed.

The reset procedure calls for [ENG] [1] [SET] – Whistle Blows then

[ENG] [1] AUX1 [8][3] Whistle Blows

The first sequence goes fine. Whistle DOES blow.

But, this is what happens when I attempt that second sequence:

Pressing the AUX1 button on the Legacy remote causes the numeric keypad to switch from numerals to icons! A sign that this is NOT the procedure in the 3^rd Rail pamphlet. Counting to where the 8 and the 3 SHOULD appear, had they not switched to icons when that AUX1 button is pushed, and pressing the icons corresponding to the 8 and the 3 position has no effect. The engine does NOT respond with a whistle as the pamphlet says it should.

I attach an image of what my Legacy actually displays before and after pressing AUX1.

There is no icon for Steam with Smoke as John mentions either?

So, it likely is NOT being reset. I don't know what to do to get around this?

Where are you getting the AUX1, 8, 3 code from?

As far as the numbers, just push the key corresponding to the number, the icons changed, but the numbers for reset still work the same.

And please try AUX1, 4 as I mentioned and see if that helps.

Hi John:

That [AUX1] [8][3] (Whistle blows) is from p. 5 of the 3rd Rail instruction pamphlet.

I already tried the [AUX1] [4] sequence you suggested, assuming that the icon for "Sound Up" was the # 4. I SWEAR I did!! The engine did not respond in any way . . . no whistle. And its performance was unchanged.

Well, I just tried again . . . and it did respond . . . but.

1/ The sound has died. I can't get it back.

2/ The engine WAS responding to the Legacy throttle, but

3/ After shutting it down and restarting it, it went back to its original behaviour, i.e., speed response ONLY by varying the track voltage.

So, now I have a silent engine with flaky behaviour. Yes, there was a loud "pop" as the sound died. No idea what caused it. It happened as the engine was shutting down.

This is really not going well at all.

What's the odds of my being able to:

a/ Obtain a replacement board and

b/ Successfully replace it?

Terry

It seems clear that there is something more than configuration going on here.  The odds of a replacement board are probably very good, but we don't know yet what we might be replacing!  The programming sequence didn't shut down the RailSounds.  I presume you have done a complete power cycle, right?

It's starting to look like you need someone to look at this and determine what is really going on.

New Sunset/ 3rd Rail RDC Cars . . .

Page 2 of instruction pamphlet: "  . . .comes with a Lionel TMCC and Railsounds IMPROVED OEM Sound and Electric Railroad Constant Speed Control (Cruise) designed to work with Lionel ZW or equivalent transformers. (NOT WITH Z750 or Z1000 Transformers).

Bolding and capitols are precisely as in the pamphlet.

I am reading this to be that it is fine to run the cars in TMCC with a Z1000 but that Cruise will not work. Why is that?

Yes, I use a Z1000. And use it with a Legacy Contoller.

Terry

That's really odd, what does Sunset say?  For the Cruise Commander, I can't see how they come up with the "8", "3" code, so they'll have to explain that.  I've installed dozens of Cruise Commanders, and I have never seen that code for them.

If you use the Z1000 brick, it will run fine.  However, some of the earlier Z1000 bricks put out as much as 24 volts, that will cook the TMCC boards!  That may be why they don't like them.

I don't have a Z1000 brick, but I have a Z750 brick.  I took it out and the nametag says 21 volts.  I measured exactly 21 volts with a 2 amp load on it.  That is too much for the TMCC electronics, they should see no more than 19 volts.

Mystery solved, don't use the Z750 or Z1000 would be my advice, but maybe it comes too late.

First off, I thought I was opening a new thread for this as it really is a different matter than the issue with the engine that responds only to the transformer for speed. Apparently I didn't!

But, that said:

Sound on that engine is back! I think it is causing me to lose my mind?

It is as before mind. Still will not adjust speed according to the Legacy throttle. Just stop or move at the maximum speed the track voltage allows. Speed must be controlled by varying the voltage with the transformer.

Still a releif in a way as I figured something had fried when it went silent. Still don't know what caused that . . . or why I couldn't get the sound back yesterday but today, it started, and sounded as normal. It's possessed!

Usually, when I do the [ENGINE] [1] [AUX1] [4] nothing happens. Maybe one time in ten, the whistle gives a toot. Don't know what to say. Makes little sense.

Now on the other matter.

I measured the voltage out of my Z1000. According to what's imprinted on the power brick, it's rated at 18v @ 100 watts. My multimeter reads 17 v with the throttle cranked wide open. So, it appears rather unlikely I could have over volted anything as I never crank the transformer wide open.

Terry,

   Could you take some pic's of your ERR components.

Bill

3 = DISABLE SERIAL COMM IN CONVENTIONAL (EXCEPT
CHUFFS)

I have steam were 43 and 34 are used.  I don't know if they are misprints or legit.

I always wondered if R2LC code was different for other manufactures like K-Line and TAS.  I get slightly different sounds/smoke from K-Line units then equivalent Lionel from same period.   G

Pics will be forthcoming.

I seem to have been especially cursed as I've experienced more than my fair share of difficulties with engines since beginning to purchase them just a few months ago. Makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong? I won't list my difficulties here.

There is nobody "local." In fact, there seems nobody in Canada at all I can get to service these "made to order" things. So I have to learn how to do it myself!

I'll get to taking those pics now.

Here are the pics of the innards of the 3rd Rail CP D-10 4-6-0 tender.

Terry,

  In your first pic dis-connect the four pin three wire connector with the red, black and blue wire. Try programming your engine, you won't receive a whistle conformation. try running the engine. 

Bill

 Terry, early on you stated there was no Program, Run switch. Below the battery in one of your pics I see a Program, Run Switch and another that I can only make out Off. Blowing the pic up. It almost looks liked they are attached with tape or something. Looks like one opening with 2 switches. Just wanted to clarify you were using the correct one when doing the programming John suggested.

Dave:

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that.

The PROG/RUN labeling was hidden by the tender body. Only the ON/OFF labeling was visible to me before opening the tender completely. Didn't even see it when I first removed the shell to poke the access hatch open from inside as it wouldn't open from the outside.

Is there a trick to that connector, Bill? I can't seem to get it off. Yanking on the wires seems a bad idea! Tried prying with jeweler's screwdriver but it just won't come.

Use a little screw driver to pry off. Also look on the cruise board and let us know what the version it is.

Man, they used every speck of space available to pack the electronics in that little tender!

OK. I pulled that connector and did the following.

1/ Ran the engine. It was silent but ran the same as before, i.e., speed was controlled only by varying the track voltage with the transformer. No speed change response using the red knob on the Legacy remote. Nudging the red knob DOES cause it to start moving forward but it has no other effect on the speed. Just as before.

2/ I then shut it down. Set switch to PGRM, reapplied track power and entered:

[ENGINE] [1] [SET]

[ENGINE] [1] [AUX1] [4]

There were no whistle sounds.

Shut down power, waited a bit, then set switch to RUN and reapplied power.

Engine ran, same as before. No response to throttle knob on Legacy other than initially starting the engine into motion.

Board states Cruise v. 4.1

So, no change in disconnecting that connector other than to silence the engine.

I reiterate that once, only once in this saga, the engine DID respond to the Legacy throttle. But it reverted to not doing so after I shut it down and restarted it.

Still stymied.

The next thing I would try is a known good radio board.

I'm starting to think there may be an issue with the Cruise Commander.  They're normally pretty robust, but who knows.

I would also try another Radio.

Bill

I don't at this point think this is going to change anything. I have a Weaver Brass NH I 4.

it uses the mentioned no. 43 to restore features when doing a reset. Not sure why these boards would be different than what they offer in their upgrades. 

I had an engine I upgraded using a Cruise M with a wireless tether. Had the exact same symptoms as Terry's even though the boards are totally different. Engine and all went to ERR when after numerous e mails couldn't solve it. It came back working. I'm just a curious bystander at this point trying to learn. 

Thanks all for the attempts to help. I think I may just have to accept this little engine as it is, at least for now. It DOES run well and has all the bells and whistles. Just that little quirk that you must control the speed conventionally.

On an upbeat note. I was having far worse problems with a new Weaver CP2816 4-6-4. I posted about it a month or so back. I just got it back from Weaver and ran it today. It runs beautifully! No idea what they did to it. There was no documentation . . . and no charge, not even return shipping!

Just a gorgeous engine that now runs superbly well! I LOVE it!!!

I love it because this is how I first saw it at Steamtown in 1997! My Weaver is at the top. 2816 "went home" for restoration shortly after I had taken the picture. I had no idea that was going to happen!

If you haven't tried another R2LC, Bill has a good point.  It's easy to do.

I do hope you can figure out the problem.  I've learned a lot keeping up on this thread, so thanks to all involved for making it interesting.  

That would be this thing?

http://www.allaboardtrains1.com/r4rebo.html

Which is the board indicated in the picture here. It is labeled "Lionel Trains 691 R2LC-C" in my engine tender.