frozen engines

Using DCS I assume.  If they are the PS-2 with 5V they may need batteries charged.  I know conventional wisdom says you don't need the batteries charged for DCS, but I have found 5V boards with weak batteries will not come out of neutral even with DCS.  G

address the engines and they all come on with sound waiting to move

How, exactly, do you "address the engines"?

have engine on screen and push on on the handheld start button..  If I leave the engines on the layout with 18 volts on the track how long will it take to charge all the batteries and do they need to be called up to charge or will they charge just sitting there quite?

They just need to be on the track with power on the track to charge.  You don't need to address them to charge.

I think you have to figure out "why" your engines are starting up in conventional mode.

The engines for whatever reason have missed the watch dog signal. Even so,,they should still revert to command mode on hitting the start up button.

I would check my wiring from the tiu to make sure the red connection goes to the center rail.

Are you using fixed 1? What type of error message are you getting?

You missunderstand, I start them up with 18 volts on the track and the tiu on in fixed mode and use the remote in the normal way and each engine will start up like it should it will just not move.  They are all on the track now with 18 volts on the track charging.

Ok lets try this again....  Do your engines  start up with lights and sound when you first power up the layout??? No remote involved yet??

havent tried that as I always use the remote.  Will turning off the tiu output and then trying to start them do any good to the problem of not moving when started up with the remote?

Did charging the batteries have an effect?  With one engine on the layout after charging the battery, start it up.  Once started up, turn the transformer off or throttle the transformer to 0V and see if the sounds remain for 10secs or so.  G

10secs

That's a long time. My experience is that most PS2/PS3 engines run their full shut down sounds in 6-7 seconds.

That maybe true, but from the MTH ASC tech notes:  "Sounds should last 10-13Sec with a quiet pop from the speaker when the battery turns off".  SOme of the recent PS-2 Diesels do have an extended shut down.  Regardless, the orginal point is to ensure there is a normal shutdown, vice an abrupt end to the sound which would indicate a bad battery after a charge.  G

GGG,

Sounds should last 10-13 Sec with a quiet pop from the speaker when the battery turns off

That's nice to know, however, it's misleading as regards testing a battery.

My point is that if sounds go at least 6-7 seconds, the battery is good and charged. I wouldn't want someone to believe that sounds must go 10-13 seconds or the battery needs charging.

Barry, your statement isn't completely correct either, but in the interest of Peace on Earth and Good Will to men I revise my statement to:

"A fully charged battery should complete a shutdown sequence normally.  No abrupt ed to the shutdown sequence.  Normally 6-10secs depending on engine."

A battery should easily be able to last 10sec if the soundfile has an extended shutdown.  Even a battery that lasted 6-7sec but couldn't complete a shutdown sequence without an abrupt end, probably is near end of life also.  G

Barry, Either you missed my point or you don't understand the risk a weak battery has to the electronics.  I agree that the one of the critical steps is having the battery last long enough for memory transfer to occur.  This period is less then the shutdown sequence.

BUT, when you are determining if the battery is health or weak, it must be able to complete the shutdown sequence.  Whether that is 5 secs or 12 seconds.

If a battery can not last the full shutdown sequence that means that it's voltage fell below the threshold for the circuitry to operate correctly. For an 8.4V battery, that probably means the voltage of the battery dropped below 5V like around 4.5V.  NOT good for a fully charged battery.  Running a load for 10-13 seconds and the voltage of a new battery would probably be above 7.5 Volts if not closer to 8Vs.

Electronics don't like brown outs or fading power.  They like clean breaks in power.

So to TEST a battery, it must hold the load for the duration of the shutdown sequence.  This is also critical for PS-1 engines which have a higher threshold for necessary voltage to operate and transfer data. More like above 7Vs.  G

GGG,

Either you missed my point or you don't understand the risk a weak battery has to the electronics.

I agree that a weak battery is not a good thing, however, a battery that can sustain 6-7 seconds of shutdown sounds is not a weak battery.

I agree that the one of the critical steps is having the battery last long enough for memory transfer to occur.  This period is less then the shutdown sequence.

 Agreed!

BUT, when you are determining if the battery is health or weak, it must be able to complete the shutdown sequence.  Whether that is 5 secs or 12 seconds. If a battery can not last the full shutdown sequence that means that it's voltage fell below the threshold for the circuitry to operate correctly.

That's nonsense. The duration of shut downs sounds is a variable from engine to engine. The PS2 engine's circuitry, however, is the same regardless of the duration of a PS2 engine's shut down sounds.

If a shut down sequence is 10 seconds or if it's 25 seconds and the battery gives up after 6-7 seconds, the battery is still plenty strong enough to operate the engine normally. 

If a battery can not last the full shutdown sequence that means that it's voltage fell below the threshold for the circuitry to operate correctly.

Barry,  I said none of what you are saying I said.  An 8.4V battery that goes from 8V to 5V in just 8 seconds is a weak battery and one of the cells is dying.  The last MTH battery I opened was a 2 cell 4.2 Volts cell battery.  One bad cell can exhibit those symptoms.   A battery that can not last as long as the shutdown sequence is a weak battery and presents a problem.  I will leave it at that since none of this helps the original poster, but for your own edification, take a new battery and a known weak battery and charge them both.  Do a no load voltage test then a loaded test with voltmeter in parallel to measure voltage drop against time.  The new battery will hold voltage up and increment down in 10ths of a volt slowly, while the weak battery will rapidly fall at near half volt increments.  Which battery would you want in your engine?  G

GGG,

A battery that can not last as long as the shutdown sequence is a weak battery and presents a problem.

I don't think that you are understanding my point. Shut down sounds are variable in duration. Using them as any kind of a standard is just plain wrong.

You expect that if an engine has shut down sounds that are 10 seconds then the battery must last 10 seconds. Hw about when shut down sounds are 30-45 seconds (yes, I have some engines whose shut down sounds are that long). Should those engine's batteries be held to a higher standard? What if shut down sounds are only 3 seconds or so (I have some like that, as well)? Should their battereos only be held to a 3 second standard?

Your "rule" is just plain arbitrary, and therefore useless as a standard.

Barry,  Yes I expect it to last 34 secs. Surely you don't think MTH made a sound file shutdown sequence so long that even a new fully charged battery would die before it completed?

My initial value was the MTH provided guidance which you seemed to take issue with, but some how your 6-7 sec value based on your experience (which I am sure is extensive) is some how NOT arbitrary?

A battery that CAN NOT last longer than 7 secs while it may be sufficent to transfer memory, or "MAY BE" able to allow it to come out of neutral is not a good battery in my book.

  G

GGG,

It's simply a matter of being able to do the job, i.e., save settings at power down. If a battery can do that, it's good enough for a PS2 engine, and is not an issue.

FYI, "6-7 seconds" is not arbitrary at all. It's a constant. "Long enough for shut down sounds" is a variable, and as such is an arbitrary (varying) unit of measure.

Sorry Barry didnt mean to get this in a ****ing match but charging the batteries did the trick and now the move when called up.

Glad that worked. No problem for me, I don't find civil discussion a problem.   We all have different opinions, and it wasn't that long ago folks said a charged battery wasn't needed for PS-2 engines to work with DCS.  My experience has shown that PS-2 5V systems are more sensitive to battery health. G

GGG,

and it wasn't that long ago folks said a charged battery wasn't needed for PS-2 engines to work with DCS.

Sorry to disagree, however, a PS2 engine will most certainly work under DCS with a weak battery or even without a battery at all. Been there, done that.

Just don't have a momentary power loss or momentary short circuit.

I accidentally fired up one I was putting the PS/2 upgrade kit in without a battery and was surprised when it was running and then I realized the battery was laying on the workbench!  I didn't know they'd run without the battery either before that.  I know that the PS/1 stuff sure wanted a battery!

Also been there many times operating with out a battery with proto-2, I wouldn't be surprised if there are hundreds of engines out in layout land with dead or weak batteries, If you're not changing a setting or ID, you wouldn't know, well maybe, the engine would be dropping into conventional at the slightest power interuption.

All the early(very early) Proto-1 would  run with  out a battery .  Not sure on the cut of date?     95 ??

Gregg,

All the early(very early) would  run with  out a battery .  Not sure on the cut of date?     95 ??

It appears that there is no cut-off date. John, above my post, recently found that out using a 3 volt upgrade kit.

Forgot to say proto-1, I'll go back an edit

The proto 1 units I've had certainly wanted a battery, but I don't normally run conventional, so it's somewhat a moot point after I test them.  I usually tear the PS/1 stuff out for a command upgrade.

I was very specific stating PS-2 5V systems.  So Barry explain why IronLakes trains would not run with DCS and now do after charging.  G

GGG,

I was very specific stating PS-2 5V systems

Let me be perfectly clear:

Any PS2 engine, 5 volt or 3 volt, will run without a battery, subject to what I stated above.

I have experienced this first-hand, including running early PS2 5 volt engines.

John, There were early QSI systems without batteries and then they added a battery but no automatic shut off circuit so they added a switch.  These can operate without battery.  Then they included the automatic battery shutdown circuit and by that time the programming got more complicated and the continuity of power was important.  So after 95 or so a charged battery was necessary for QSI and ProtoSound systems.

Regardless if the 5V system should or occasionally does work without a battery, it doesn't not mean it always will.  Plus there is a difference between low voltage batteries and dead batteries.  I have experience PS-2 5V engines that would not work in DCS with the dead battery that was in the engine.

Until you pull the batteries measure the voltage, and link the findings to the behavior.

PS-2 3V systems are different and I have not experience issue with dead batteries other than in conventional.

Now I have seen PS-1 engine that were about 98 vintage and it worked with a dead battery.  So never say never.  :-) G

Please answer the question:-)  G

GGG,

Please answer the question

What question?

Why charging the batteries worked?  Now all his engines run fine in DCS.  All he did different was charge the batteries.  G

GHGG,

Why charging the batteries worked?

Serendipity.

Whatever was the real problem was corrected by the original poster, unbeknownst to the original poster.

It wouldn't be the first time... or the last! 

1 engine maybe,

 4??? engines....  something else going on.

I propose that this thread be ended without further posts, since the underlying problem is cured.