Future of the hobby

I overheard a conversation about wireless layouts that run on battery power using lithium battery and bluetooth signal, so no need to use transformers and wire.

Some people are already doing this.
Battery technology seems to have reached a point, where they have enough power and are affordable if the manufactures decide there is a market.

More power to the people looking forward to this, but its not for me.  I will stick with my traditional toy train controls with transformers and electromechanical e-units. I don't buy newly made stuff anyway.

While I can see this happening very easily, there will always be cases where good ol' AC does the job better. Large layouts (and I leave that def'n to the reader) and/or long trains will quickly drain even Li batteries.  Even with our relatively small large club layout (~65' in an old baggage car) frequently sees F3 ABA's pulling 8 streamliners.  I can barely imagine layouts such as NJ Hi Railers making use of batteries.  Then again, I suppose if you pack an unpowered F or E unit full of cells that you might be able to do it.  But then again, what about the fire danger(!)?  Would common carriers even allow a shipment containing just one fully-packed unit to be contained in a shipment?  Now, being pragmatic, I realize there are solutions to every problem and the above was written more as an exercise in discussion than anything.

I think that on-board battery power is the wave of the future and will be a game changer for model trains. And I'm an old guy who runs everything conventionally and who does not bother with DCC, DCS or TMCC which, for me, are an unnecessary and expensive complication on my smallish model railroads. Battery power is something else, however. Imagine no wiring under the layout, no pickup rollers, no loss of power through switches. Sounds great to me...

MELGAR

I've already significantly cut back on new toy train purchases.  If they go exclusive battery power in locomotives, that's even more of a reason not to buy new.  It would be "game over" for me -- forget about "game changer".  No interest whatsoever in that technology for locomotives in this hobby. 

David

MELGAR posted:

I think that on-board battery power is the wave of the future and will be a game changer for model trains. And I'm an old guy who runs everything conventionally and who does not bother with DCC, DCS or TMCC which, for me, are an unnecessary and expensive complication on my smallish model railroads. Battery power is something else, however. Imagine no wiring under the layout, no pickup rollers, no loss of power through switches. Sounds great to me...

MELGAR

. . . And no center rail? Now you're talkin' heresy! 

Like CW Burfle I would, if still here, stick with the strong juice. On the other hand there are already folks looking for investors in new and better battery development, recycling and disposal. Easier and cheaper probably for toy train operation but not efficient enough for many. But it will follow the money as always.

While there have been several "game changers" in the 50+ years I've been in the hobby, conventional control in all the scales is still around.

Battery control and smart device control are merely other options.

Rusty

What do you think about the following:  

Put WiFi receivers in locomotives, let them continue to be powered from the rails, but control them wirelessly.  Just me, but I have always thought that sending code through jointed track and pickup rollers is just not a great idea.

I'm "out","done","through","pushed away from the table" for good as far as new technology and "modern" era trains. All it did was make an enjoyable hobby much more frustrating and much more expensive that it needs to be. I've sold off nearly all of my 1980's or newer trains (300+ "modern" locos and zinc pest riddled rolling stock)  and completely rebuilt the layout and train room. I'm so glad I held on to all the prewar,postwar and standard gauge I'd collected over the years. I'm actually running trains and enjoying them again. I love the smell of the ozone and smoke pellets much better than "toasted" electronics. Believe me, I tried it all and in all a BIG way. TMCC,Three rail DCC,DCS,Legacy even did some experimenting with battery power. For me, none of it ever met my expectations. All this excessive technology and the increasingly expensive,poorly executed gizmos brought me to a boiling point. Everything old is now new again. 

In the not so distant future, I believe we will see onboard battery power in the O and HO scales.  Battery tech is getting better and better.  Wasn't that long ago it was hard to put decent batteries in G scale and in a trailing box car.  Now we can put batterys right under the hood of a diesel, or in the tender of a LGB Mogul and still fit DCC/Sound in there.  Battery power is starting to be tinkered with in O scale now.  Dead rail is very popular in the outdoor scales to dispense with track polishing and power pickup issues.   And the hobby will shift this way.  As those that remember and enjoy the old school E units and such pass on from this life, the younger generation want the ablity to blue tooth stuff, control with thier smart phone and such.  This is the future for the hobby, just as it was in the 1950s when J.L. Cowen pushed the envelope with operating accesories that had never been seen before.  Now its all about controlablity and such.  The down side is once those electronic marvels age to the point of our classic pre/post war trains, most will probably no longer function correctly if at all.  Electronics do not age well, we see this now in the early sound boards from several brands.     Mike

Rob Leese posted:

What do you think about the following:  

Put WiFi receivers in locomotives, let them continue to be powered from the rails, but control them wirelessly.  Just me, but I have always thought that sending code through jointed track and pickup rollers is just not a great idea.

ahhh man, but we have so much fun with DCS doing that   without it, we never would have seen "Check Track", "Engine Not On track", "Out of range"  

C W BURFLE-ROCKY MOUNTAINEER-BOOMER... I am with you in a way! I have the tmcc legacy visionline from 2014 on back but  I also kept my original non lionel tpc's original bpc's tmcc base cab-1 and can operate all the postwar engines as I please. I concur as this newer stuff either an engine has issues and costly to fix seems as the boards are not as robust as an e-unit and requires special electronic gizmos so they play nice with each other!

or else I'm chasing command unit issues the worst is DCS and no dcs posters I correct all issues and 3 months later all back I rest my case. and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support.

as to conventional control we are a dying breed but I agree with you that a simple turn or push of a transformer handle brings joy to a simple reality the trains run no need to remember what button to push or where to scroll to to activate a command nor an app that decides to go ballistic or get corrupted I have never heard of a postwar transformer getting corrupted it might have a loose stud a bad breaker but in all they tend to just roll along allowing us to smile and just watch a train as in real life meander on down the tracks!

only my opinions to each there own that's what makes this a great hobby each in there way they prefer to run trains can drift away from reality and just enjoy a simpler part of the daily life.

Knock it off Doug, DCS works just ask the experts

I've already significantly cut back on new toy train purchases.  If they go exclusive battery power in locomotives, that's even more of a reason not to buy new.  It would be "game over" for me -- forget about "game changer".  No interest whatsoever in that technology for locomotives in this hobby. 

LOL, that's how I feed about the current stuff, Proto-n, Liontech, TMCC, what-have-you. I own a few pieces with electronics, but had there been an option to buy them with traditional control only, I would have purchased them that way.

Mechanical E-units and "pulmore" motors all the way!

For those who aren't familiar with the way improvements in battery technology have impacted hobbies, I encourage you to visit a hobby shop that caters to the R/C crowd....planes, boats, cars,......DRONES!!!!, etc.  Extrapolation to model railroading....O gauge, but also HO...is more easily understood.  Working the last 15+ years at our LHS, I've seen it firsthand.  As others have mentioned, it's becoming quite commonplace for large scale trains, especially for the more challenging outdoor applications.

RCS America has had a booth in Orange Hall, York, for a couple years...or more....showing this technology adapted to O scale.

I think this game-changer for the O market is awaiting a major investor/player in the likes of a Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachmann, etc.   Talk about a paradigm-crusher for Lionel, especially!  O3R?..........Poof!  

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see one of these guys making a serious entry for batt-pow in HO before O.  The market size for HO scale is big enough to test the waters with battery power.  The HO market is less demanding for a lot of power-hungry on-board gizmos and gadgets....Here smoke, there smoke, everywhere smoke-smoke....depleting coal loads in the tender....double Fatso speakers....etc..  

In fact, Bachmann, here's your first challenge: Your HO Doodlebug/Trailer offerings.  Ready-made, IMHO, for battery power....with DCC and sound, of course!!

Ah, well, the naysayers will abound.  And mortality will claim many of us before such 'heresy' gains a foothold in the less-than-largest-scales model railroading market.  

Just another reason to die with smile on our face.

KD

Ah, well, the naysayers will abound.  And mortality will claim many of us before such 'heresy' gains a foothold in the less-than-largest-scales model railroading market.  

Naysayers? - I see people, such as myself, saying they have no interest. Is there a problem with that?
If you want all that gunk..... great. Don't try to tell me what I want.

Really, this is the wireless is future, no more / no need to wire a control panel unless you really want it. Maybe to need a version of it but no longer need to spend hours wiring it up. MTH - TIU - TIU to Route or Lionel Legacy to Route - Can be beat. My new RR will more than likely not have a control panel but I will have a drawing of it for reference.

Batteries are a no go - not interested in that. All I can think of is every 2 years buying a darn Fios batter, now this - won't be buying into that.

Doug,

Great comment - see those warning enough - not looking for "Battery Dead" buy a new one for $19.95.

C W Burfle posted:

Ah, well, the naysayers will abound.  And mortality will claim many of us before such 'heresy' gains a foothold in the less-than-largest-scales model railroading market.  

Naysayers? - I see people, such as myself, saying they have no interest. Is there a problem with that?
If you want all that gunk..... great. Don't try to tell me what I want.

You mean you want to pick out your own shoes??   I'm with you though, Pullmor's and ZW's for me, well, and a bunch of Prewar.

My days of buying new stuff are coming to an end now with bluetooth etc.  Not interested and not paying the price in both upfront cash and future problems with more electronic gadgets to break....    Ive got plenty of older stuff to keep me happy...   

Exploding, lithium - ion - battery - powered trains! Yes!

Hal - an Adams family fan.

Not resistant to new technology....THAT WORKS BETTER AND LASTS LONGER, AND IS UNIVERSAL...trade cars in without touching fuel injection... don't miss frequent carburetor rebuilds..  l could picture a universal system that compromised...maybe traditional track power with battery backup to get you over dirty track. Otherwise, l will remain a reactionary.

Battery power just doesn't do much for me, I think it would be a big PITA. Charging, replacing, running out of power in the middle of a running session, etc. I like track power and will stick with it as long as I can. Wifi in the trains might be of more interest. I am slowly adjusting ti Wifi control, but honestly I still prefer the DCS and Legacy remotes for now. I do like the electronics and command control though, it's what really got my interests up enough to get back in the hobby a few years ago. I don't believe any of this will happen over night though, I think it will be a gradual transition to whatever we end up with. Conventional operation will probably still be around for a long time too. That's part of the versatility of the hobby, something for everyone, even in the way you operate your trains.

I'm looking forward to the day that there are quality affordable batteries in O scale engines and a UNIVERSAL "command" system that tells the engine what to do.  I'm a dreamer.

Gone is the: wiring, third rail, cleaning track, polarity issues, block issues, etc.

Batteries, not for me. Already too much plug/play and out of box ready. No feeling of accomplishment. I don't mind complicated wiring. That's why it's a hobby.

Rod Miller

Colorado Hirailer:

"Not resistant to new technology....THAT WORKS BETTER AND LASTS LONGER, AND IS UNIVERSAL..."

Careful, Colorado - you're making too much sense for the Millennials (of course, how many of them would be reading this Forum?)

To a point both depressing and liberating; this would apply to many of us, though certainly not all. Also, it applies only to those of us "model rails" (as they used to say even before my time) whose primary enjoyment of this hobby are the trains (real and model) and attendant items, and not the underlying "technology" that makes them - the models - run. The tech is just the appliance, not the point, to us.

The point is: I'm 69 years old. Based on my lifestyle, health and family history, I will probably not live much past 80, at best. My grandmother lived to be 99; her husband, my grandfather, died before 65. Similar family patterns all over, though the "long-livers" are common. So - 10-12 years and I'm outta here.

I have TMCC and extra, unused CAB-1's, Powermasters, a TPC400, command bases. Many of these things have been around 20+ years and show no signs of going bad. (The CAB-1 buttons are the Achilles heel - but I corrected some of that.) My TMCC/ERR locos (and a couple of Legacy types) have been reliable and not temper-mental.  3 radio boards replaced, so far. A small percentage.

There is no reason to think that the bulk of my equipment - not 100%, certainly - will do anything but last me the rest of my life, or the part of it where this stuff matters at all, anyway.

Depressing - and liberating. Go ahead with your batteries (I would have liked that - lose the middle rail and 2-rail wiring headaches) and your Bluetooth and your iPhones. Best of luck. I won't be needing or buying it. TMCC equipment and kits? Yeah, I'll still buy that for the foreseeable future. 

Monorails

StPaul posted:

or else I'm chasing command unit issues the worst is DCS and no dcs posters I correct all issues and 3 months later all back I rest my case. and now an added insult MTH has decided for us no more dcs remotes so like apple products they to can do without my $ support.

only my opinions to each there own that's what makes this a great hobby each in there way they prefer to run trains can drift away from reality and just enjoy a simpler part of the daily life.

 

Did you ever stop to think that the D in DCS might stand for "Dead"?

romiller49 posted:

Batteries, not for me. Already too much plug/play and out of box ready. No feeling of accomplishment. I don't mind complicated wiring. That's why it's a hobby.

Rod Miller

I actually like wiring things up as well. Made a living for 37 years doing similar things and I liked my job, even kind of fun most of the time. There was a sense of accomplishment when we started things up, especially if they worked the first time and no smoke was released!! 

I can see the advantages of battery power, but for those that enjoy Passenger trains, that will mean a battery in each car. recharging the batteries is going to be the challenge, simplest way would be charging tracks, but leaving a layout powered up while unattended is not a good idea, and placing batteries in rechargers is going to be inconvenient and with as many locomotives and passenger cars as some of us have, the bank of rechargers is going to problematic.

Electronics in general have become less and less reliable in MY Experience. I have had excellent performance from my TMCC equipment, but my Legacy and DCS equipment have been much less reliable. Also with the TMCC stuff, there are not the "Updates" like there are with Legacy, I don't remember which version they are up to now, but, mine has not been updated in a loooong time, and I don't use it enough to deal with the hassle. I do Enjoy all the features of Legacy, but I am not "Tech Savvy" and do not like all the revising involved with it.

 I have enough equipment to open a small LTS, that with the unreliability of the newer electronics, I have pretty much decided that I will be happy with what I have. There are many newer products that I would enjoy having, but the unreliability of the newer electronics, has kept me from buying much in quite awhile. Improve reliability and Quality Control, and I will be buying again in the future, but my experience with the latest electronics, has not been good.

Doug

MELGAR posted:

I think that on-board battery power is the wave of the future and will be a game changer for model trains.

Did you place your order for a Tesla Model 3 or just buy a Chevy Spark from inventory?

What, me worry?

I do not know many operators that run hands on conventional.  TMCC, DCS, and Legacy are the rulers in my part of the country.   Whatever choice an operator makes to run his trains for whatever reason is his and he should enjoy running his trains.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I do not know many operators that run hands on conventional.  TMCC, DCS, and Legacy are the rulers in my part of the country.   Whatever choice an operator makes to run his trains for whatever reason is his and he should enjoy running his trains.

Right now I am strictly running conventional as I seem to keep acquiring passenger cars and then have to keep buying locomotives to pull them.  This vicious cycle over the past 20 years has prevented me from taking the plunge and buying the MTH DCS system as I own 95% MTH engines.  The operating club I belong to has Lionel Legacy/TMCC controllers only and I am satisfied just to be able to open up the throttle to 18 volts and run conventional.

In regards to the future of the hobby I feel we have to preserve steam and vintage diesel engines that run excursions and keep model trains affordable to keep the future generations interested.

I guess if a model railroader survives the eventual apocalypse, battery powered trains will give him something to do during the long cold nights without electricity.  ;-)

Curt

How about low steady voltage in track that charges up the batteries in the locos and cars!

now you have no removal of batteries or any input charger ports.

brick would power the track.

the future is otw, like it or not.

for the hobby to survive long term, phones;tablets, wifi  Bluetooth and lithium batteries are almost certainly guaranteed.

how many operators under the age of 30 did you see at York?

i saw under 10 THRU Friday. Did not attend Saturday so don't know if the public entrance was a success in bringing in new people.

guarantee all manufactures will be betting on the new technologies to keep the hobby & sales going.

tnx for the patience with this long post. Didn't start out this way, but I never know when to shut up!

lol ��

KevOPelli posted:

How about low steady voltage in track that charges up the batteries in the locos and cars!

now you have no removal of batteries or any input charger ports.

brick would power the track.

the future is otw, like it or not.

for the hobby to survive long term, phones;tablets, wifi  Bluetooth and lithium batteries are almost certainly guaranteed.

how many operators under the age of 30 did you see at York?

i saw under 10 THRU Friday. Did not attend Saturday so don't know if the public entrance was a success in bringing in new people.

guarantee all manufactures will be betting on the new technologies to keep the hobby & sales going.

tnx for the patience with this long post. Didn't start out this way, but I never know when to shut up!

lol ��

 

 

If you have low steady voltage in the track to charge the batteries in the locos and cars, why bother with the batteries? Unless I am mistaken, you need at least the same, or preferably slightly higher voltage to charge a battery, so the 18 volts used already for command control would make the use of batteries pointless, just added expense and complexity, with no real benefit.

Doug

Chas posted:

In regards to the future of the hobby I feel we have to preserve steam and vintage diesel engines that run excursions and keep model trains affordable to keep the future generations interested.

There's no guarantee future generations will view vintage equipment the same way we do.  Some folks today already model the contemporary railroad scene and have little interest in vintage prototypes.

Rusty

I guess I opened a can of worms here.

What I was looking for was. "What would you like to see that would be ground breaking to our hobby

Now how bout this one  battery powered, remote control or manual switch powered accessories,  they run at lower voltage and not necessarily all the time.  By the way the batteries can be charged like cell phones with a wireless charging pad.

I have been playing with trains since the 50's and got big in O gauge back in the late 80's ran with that till 2009 , hob dictated otherwise, and back in it now, however the hobby seems very much like it did 8 years ago, I thought there would have been some monumental event changing the whole industry.

I think it's great that we have the different options for ways to operate our trains. Personally, I like conventional as most of the trains I run are prewar. It's what I grew up with, I like it, and it's a way for me to escape the electronics we've become so dependent on. Last week at York I picked up a Williams Crown Edition SP Daylight GS4. By today's standards, it's primitive, but it's the version of the Daylight I wanted: simple, F-N-R conventional operation. Maybe I'll add some sound to it and upgrade the smoke unit someday, but that's about it. I admire the guys who have mastered all the electronics with the new trains, but at this point in time it's not for me. 

When it comes to the repairs of our trains, my concern is twofold: 1) Will replacement parts still be available and 2) will there still be people who know how to fix the old prewar trains? Just like the kids today have no idea what an LP or 8-track is, it wouldn't surprise me if there comes a day when someone says, "what's an E-Unit?"