GENERAL KNOWLEDGE QUESTION

Hot Water... You want to take care of this?

The term is referred to in the industry as "Power Pooling", thus the railroads can "share" motive power. Each railroad's Mechanical Dept. keep and maintaing horsepower hour records so that each railroad doesn't get too deep into operating the other guy's motive power. Generally it all balances out throughout the year, otherwise one railroad will wind up having to "loan extra units" to another railroad in order to "balance out" the horsepower hours.

This is something of a sidebar to this topic.  One by-product of power pooling is the general upgrading of control compartments (cabs).  Before pooling of power became so prevalent there were some railroads which spent as little as possible on seats, toilets, and other amenities.  Due to the locomotive cab being  an item included in the labor agreements which represent locomotive crews, some railroads' cabs could not meet requirements on other railroads, requiring that the more spartan equipped units could not be used as a controlling unit on other roads.  The actual agreements had a lot of variance, but the compliance was a nuisance and caused delay.  It is no longer a problem, as most US and Canadian locomotives have nicely-equipped cabs that meet the requirements of all US railroads.  Canada used to require a first-aid stretcher and a certain whistle, as well as a hotplate and kettle, and I'm not sure if any US locomotives can lead in Canada, but Canadian locomotives are used as controlling units in the US every day.

All of the above is pretty much correct; the "run-through" has been common for 30 years or so: as modern diesel locos are more alike than different, when a coast-to-coast consist gets to the end of it's line, why bother to change locos? The original locos, these days, may not belong to the originating line. Now, in reality, some locos have to be changed because of certain upcoming line conditions or the like, and most locos on a given road are typically owned by them.

The UP bought the SP years ago, so the SP's are really UP locos - note the UP yellow cab number patch on most of them. I have seen NS locos in shots taken in N. California. But, not common.

Anyway, this is common now - loco-watching rail fans are not so much "rail" fans these days as "paint" fans. Run-through's of motive power were not unheard of in steam days, as was leasing of locos (the PRR short-term leased several ATSF 2-10-4's in the 50's), but it was very rare. Run-through's, of a sort, mostly took place when trackage rights were purchased by RR A from RR B.

The crews on these locos - today and back then - are typically employees of the RR that owns the track, or, sometimes, some foreign-line (the correct term) crews that had qualified (been tested) on the host RR's line in question.

I worked for a RR 15 years, though not in operations.

Where in NW Florida are you? I live in Mobile, about 60 miles from P'cola, and I get over to a friend's house in Milton a few times a year.

There are whole departments at the Class 1 railroads devoted to calculating the "Horsepower Hours" they owe to other railroads and the amounts owed to them. That's how run-through power "debts" are calculated - HP Hours.  A 3,000 Hp engine used on-line for an hour accumulates 3,000 HP Hours.

The crews on those locomotives are local railroad crews, not a crew from the railroad that owns the power. Today one diesel is pretty much like any other, so no special training is required when a CSX crew has to run a UP diesel for example.

D500, you are real close I'm in Pace, FL.  My youngest daughter (and thousands of $$$) goes to South Alabama so we go over there a lot.  Anyway, great info everyone I appreciate it all...very interesting.

OGR Webmaster posted:

There are whole departments at the Class 1 railroads devoted to calculating the "Horsepower Hours" they owe to other railroads and the amounts owed to them. That's how run-through power "debts" are calculated - HP Hours.  A 3,000 Hp engine used on-line for an hour accumulates 3,000 HP Hours.

I wonder how many HP Hours I stole from foreign roads by putting one of their locos on line? 

Here's a UP SD70Ms leading a east bound CSX manifest at Yoder, Pa, just a few miles

from Meyersdale

That's all very interesting.  Heck, I lash up different roads all the time on my own railroad.  Mine is more a matter of preference.  I would hate to be the guy given the job of keeping up with hp hours, what a nightmare.

Mr Union Pacific posted:

I would hate to be the guy given the job of keeping up with hp hours, what a nightmare.

Not in this modern age of computers and computer controlled locomotives.

Lash up???????????????????????????????????

Brandy posted:

Lash up???????????????????????????????????

Yes, well,,,,,,,,,,,,he's a toy train guy.

Oh my!  That is DCS terminology.  Lol!  And no, no, no, not "toy trains" they are scale models.  Like I have explained to my wife a million times, I do not play with toy trains, I operate scale model trains. 

Hot Water posted:

Brandy posted:

Lash up???????????????????????????????????

Yes, well,,,,,,,,,,,,he's a toy train guy.

Actually, the "LU words" were in several articles in a recent OGR!

But I read a story in the 1970's that one railroad owned millions of HP/HRs to another.  It got to the point the road in debt purchased, I think, some SD40-2's.  But here is the clincher.  The RR in debt had the units built to the colors and specs of the railroad owed, and use those units to pay off the debt.

Is this true?

Mr Union Pacific posted:

Oh my!  That is DCS terminology.  Lol!  And no, no, no, not "toy trains" they are scale models.  Like I have explained to my wife a million times, I do not play with toy trains, I operate scale model trains. 

Lionel is just as guilty!

Is there not some similar scenario that deals with the rolling stock when say a boxcar ends up on another railroad and get used by them?

Missoula Montana.  Note the NS unit.

This unit from Mexico center.  CSX mainline Meyersdale, PA.  Picture from the Salisbury  bridge, Old Western Maryland RR, current Great Allegheny Passage bike trail.

 To see this as common practice, kind of implies, there is universal/across systems, maintenance, other than just adding fuel????  Example:  Wheel wear/ turning and replacement.  Logged hrs.  indicate the per cent billing for this cost.   If the unit spent 60% of it's time on other rails the cost would get billed accordingly ???  As mentioned the digital world could track this.   Or does everyone fix/do major overhaul of their own, even though significant wear was accumulated on another road???

From the past, one good  example of shared power was found on the coal trains bringing Wyoming coal down to 3 different power plants in Texas.  BN, Inc paired up with SP on unit coal trains to San Antonio, with MKT to LaGrange (...you know what I'm talking about...), and ATSF to a plant near Houston.  After BN, Inc merged with SLSF, SP power started showing up on Frisco trains between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. (we were quite impressed by units with air conditioning).

Does the calculation of horsepower owed ever consider the load on the train?  Just say one train was a bit overpowered while another could be under-powered which could perhaps put more difficult hours on the units in that train. Maybe splitting hairs here. 

Rob Leese posted:

From the past, one good  example of shared power was found on the coal trains bringing Wyoming coal down to 3 different power plants in Texas.  BN, Inc paired up with SP on unit coal trains to San Antonio, with MKT to LaGrange (...you know what I'm talking about...), and ATSF to a plant near Houston.  After BN, Inc merged with SLSF, SP power started showing up on Frisco trains between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. (we were quite impressed by units with air conditioning).

The entrance to the infamous "Chicken Ranch" facility was just down the road from the SH 71 entrance to the power plant SW of LaGrange!.

wb47 posted:

Does the calculation of horsepower owed ever consider the load on the train? 

No.

Just say one train was a bit overpowered while another could be under-powered which could perhaps put more difficult hours on the units in that train.

That is just the "luck of the draw" so to speak. Megawatt hours however, are used to determine engine and rotating electrical equipment overhaul schedules.

Maybe splitting hairs here. 

wb47 posted:

Does the calculation of horsepower owed ever consider the load on the train?  Just say one train was a bit overpowered while another could be under-powered which could perhaps put more difficult hours on the units in that train. Maybe splitting hairs here. 

Run 8 is Run 8. It makes no difference if that time in Run 8 is spent at 15 mph or 50 mph. The locomotive doesn't care one way or the other. It's x horsepower for x hours. That's it.

Mike CT posted:

 To see this as common practice, kind of implies, there is universal/across systems, maintenance, other than just adding fuel????

Yep, a diesel is a diesel is a diesel. All the units of the same model are essentially the same inside.

For heavy maintenance a unit may be sent back to the owning railroad for repair. If the maintenance required dictates that it can't be sent back to the owning railroad for repair (flat or thin wheels, for example) then the using railroad will repair it and bill the owning railroad for the work. This repair work is separate from the HP Hours calculations.

All of the latest microprocessor controlled locomotives store MWHRS and a lot of them have location GPS, so at the "push of a button" (so to speak), the exact location and number of MWHRS are available. it's not "eyeshades and armbands" any more. If a certain railroad has constantly "owed" HP HRS (MWHRS) to another, the owing RR generally wakes up to this situation and buys additional locomotives. Finally, there is (or was) a fairly large "lease fleet" that moved through the entire North American motive power roster as traffic rose and fell, and many railroads usually have some lease power on the property. If your RR owes HP HRS, and there is no money in your budget for new power so you can cascade older units to pay off HP HRS, then you have to lease. This entire process is a lot like the kids game "Chutes and Ladders". A lot of lease units are like the old "Dixie cups", use them for one or two trips, and then tow them around for the next three weeks each month.

There are rooms full of people that watch this stuff.....

You can tell that Canadian locomotives have stretchers by the white and green rectangular sign, usually on the nose. Our Canadian friends call these "spine boards". It also has to fit through the window if located within the operator's cab. There is a law in Canadian transport Regs that say, in case of an emergency or accident, the train crew has to stop the train and assist. (May not be exact wording....from my memory.)

Canadian locomotives usually have seats that resemble lawn recliners, and I have seen crews refuse to take the locomotive without this seat. I have made trips on RR's where the rule was the everyone in the cab had to have a seat, and I had to sit on a 5 gallon Wal Mart spackling bucket.

I have seen plenty of instances where a locomotive could not be a "leader" due to no cab signals, inoperative radio, defective seat, etc. etc.

Don't get me started on toilets........

Enjoy your model trains. they are the easiest dispatch you will ever make!