Getting Started with a 4x8 Fastrack Build

Hi Greg- welcome to the forum. I like all of Ken's plans. They are all well thought out. If you can expand slightly to 5X9 you would have more wiggle room. The operating accessories take up a lot of space so it's best to see what will fit before getting to far ahead of yourself.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Hi Greg- welcome to the forum. I like all of Ken's plans. They are all well thought out. If you can expand slightly to 5X9 you would have more wiggle room. The operating accessories take up a lot of space so it's best to see what will fit before getting to far ahead of yourself.

Bob

Thanks Bob. Bigger is better, but I started with the 4x8 for ease of construction, as I've never built "proper" benchwork before. But it turned out nicely. In thinking about it, I probably could have done something similar with a 4x10 or 4x12, which would have opened up some additional options as well. I will have to see how things evolve over time - I have the space to add another 4x8 for the L shape, or to expand lengthwise and go to 4x12 or so. I figure in a year or so, we'll start some sort of expansion.

1/2" plywood and 1/2" homasote. My childhood layouts consisted of warped plywood and rickety screw on legs. Having a real sturdy table is making this a better experience already!

Looks like fun!  My initial thought on Option 2 is that the 4 yard tracks will only hold like 1 car each.   I wonder if you start with 2 yard tracks, you may have more options for interesting surroundings.  And you'll still have room for at least 4 cars total on the 2 tracks, vs 4 cars total on the 4 tracks.  And you'll save a couple hundred bucks on switches.  Enjoy!

I like Option 1 better, especially if you can design a crossover to move from one loop to the other.

For edging, I use a 4' X 8' sheet of thin 1/4", I believe, "luan" plywood which I cut into 8' long strips which are 8" tall (you can adjust to whatever height you feel you need for your layout) and then apply some semi-gloss poly. You can cut one in half to make the table ends. I nail them into the base with a nail gun using 1.5" brads or finish nails and then fill the small holes with wood putty.  You can also adjust the installed height above the layout surface to whatever height you want. Mine is relatively short at about 2" above and is more for looks than to keep trains from flying off the layout. 

@Richie C. posted:

I like Option 1 better, especially if you can design a crossover to move from one loop to the other.

For edging, I use a 4' X 8' sheet of thin 1/4", I believe, "luan" plywood which I cut into 8' long strips which are 8" tall (you can adjust to whatever height you feel you need for your layout) and then apply some semi-gloss poly. You can cut one in half to make the table ends. I nail them into the base with a nail gun using 1.5" brads or finish nails and then fill the small holes with wood putty.  You can also adjust the installed height above the layout surface to whatever height you want. Mine is relatively short at about 2" above and is more for looks than to keep trains from flying off the layout.

Thanks. The original design from @Ken-Oscale for Option 1 includes crossover from outer to inner loop - I just deleted it from the track plan for now to save $400. But it can be added anytime in the S-curve areas in the middle of the layout.

I like the edging - thanks for posting.

Am I correct that both options have two loops, and the second is not shown in Option 2? If not, Option 1, no contest. If so, then still Option 1. Many start off in O gauge 3 rail with the idea of doing switching, but they never really use that feature. Option 1 gives more room for operating accessories, roads, buildings, etc., which will all appeal to your 3 year old.

AS for a cross over, I don't see the need. Put the passenger express on the outer loop and the freight on the inner and let em rip. Save the switching and crossovers for when you have a bigger layout.

@Will posted:

Am I correct that both options have two loops, and the second is not shown in Option 2? If not, Option 1, no contest. If so, then still Option 1. Many start off in O gauge 3 rail with the idea of doing switching, but they never really use that feature. Option 1 gives more room for operating accessories, roads, buildings, etc., which will all appeal to your 3 year old.

AS for a cross over, I don't see the need. Put the passenger express on the outer loop and the freight on the inner and let em rip. Save the switching and crossovers for when you have a bigger layout.

Yes, both options would have the two loops. I agree about Option 1. I have that, minus the switches, setup now for fit and testing clearance, which all seem fine. I think you are right about the crossovers as well...it's not worth it now and operationally wouldn't add much. I'll save that money for when we expand. I picked up the LionChief Super Chief and Polar Express recently...that should work nicely on the outer loop and we can run a freight with operating cars/accessories on the inner.

Some more track in place for fitting. Also picked up the O48 switches I needed today from The Train Station in Mountain Lakes, NJ. They were kind enough to come down off MSRP a little and it’s a really amazing shop. Almost entirely Lionel. Nice to be in a true train store. It’s a 30 minute drive but will be my new “local” shop for sure.

You have a 3 yr old.  Lose the small yard and use it for operating accessories of any kind.   The more things moving the better.   In other words, go with option 1.

-Greg

@GregK posted:

Some more track in place for fitting. Also picked up the O48 switches I needed today from The Train Station in Mountain Lakes, NJ. They were kind enough to come down off MSRP a little and it’s a really amazing shop. Almost entirely Lionel. Nice to be in a true train store. It’s a 30 minute drive but will be my new “local” shop for sure.

The Train Station is one of the venerable old train stores, of which few are left. They have a lot of postwar Lionel, or always did. I used to stop in there often when I was commuting.

Greg,

I'm with Richie C. on this.  (By the way, he has a great looking traditional layout.)

Option 1 gives you a lot of flexibility for the future.    You could build a crossover in the middle, and perhaps also install four switches to connect your outer oval to the inner loop.

Railyards, though sometimes necessary, are boring for kids. They want to see colorful operating accessories and trains running along different routes.

By the way, you can easily add 1.5 inches to the outer edge of your table all of the way around.  Just get four clear, straight 2x4s, and tack them tightly against the outer edge, using 3 inch #10 deck screws.    Nail a 1.5" strip of 1/2" plywood on top of the extended edges,  putting the clean factory edges of the strips on the inside, against the straight factory edges of your existing sheet, and paint it.     This will look fine and be strong, and you can still add the outside guard strip if you want to.

If money is tight, then use your existing switches to connect the outer and inner loops, and don't waste them on a large, unnecessary yard to start with.

Hope this gives you some useful ideas.

Mannyrock

Check out one of my old posts, Permanent Layout Progress, might be an idea you could use for framing. I’m finally getting back to it and need to update my progress

@Will posted:

The Train Station is one of the venerable old train stores, of which few are left. They have a lot of postwar Lionel, or always did. I used to stop in there often when I was commuting.

Yeah my first time there but I remember hearing about it from the Lionel TM videos when I was a kid. They had a whole room of postwar still. Tons of stuff.

@Greg Houser posted:

You have a 3 yr old.  Lose the small yard and use it for operating accessories of any kind.   The more things moving the better.   In other words, go with option 1.

-Greg

He’s enjoying it all so far. I think I will wire some things like the Gateman off a push button so he can operate it instead of by insulated rail.

We want to stop by the next show at your club. I’m in Bergen County..not far. Think we would both love it.

Great idea for the gateman.

I am replacing the giant robot-looking gateman with a more scale and lifelike figure, and wiring it to a timer, so that it pops open unexpectedly while the trains are running.  Some folks have replaced him with Batman, or a Clown, or a "Monster" of some sort.

Mannyrock

@GregK posted:

He’s enjoying it all so far. I think I will wire some things like the Gateman off a push button so he can operate it instead of by insulated rail.

We want to stop by the next show at your club. I’m in Bergen County..not far. Think we would both love it.

I'm confident you'll both have a great time and you're closer than I am.    Definitely stop by and if you are, please reach out to me via my email in my profile so I can let you know where I'll be.  I'd be happy to meet you and your son.  If it's not mobbed I can get him some throttle time.

IMPORTANT NOTE:  Please check our website or reach out to me at the email in my profile.   I expect our show schedule to change due to recent events beginning with rescheduling of the show next week on 1/9.  I'm confident we will post on the forum once finalized in the next week but want you to be aware before you potentially make a trip only to find the show has been rescheduled.

-Greg  

@GregK I think it's great you're introducing your young son to model railroading.

Echoing what's already been said, maximizing play value for a 3 year old will pay off in their long term interest in the hobby.  For my, at the time 3 year old daughter, I bumped out one side of a 4' x 8' table like yours by bolting on a 2' x 4' half table to allow more play space with an auto road all the way around the perimeter.  In addition to running the trains, she loved to run the cars around the layout too.  Operating accessories were also very enjoyable for her: Log dump car, coal dump, and milk loading and unloading platforms.  The tunnel also added interest.  Best of all, she still enjoys the hobby as a teenager.

@Greg Houser posted:

I'm confident you'll both have a great time and you're closer than I am.    Definitely stop by and if you are, please reach out to me via my email in my profile so I can let you know where I'll be.  I'd be happy to meet you and your son.  If it's not mobbed I can get him some throttle time.

IMPORTANT NOTE:  Please check our website or reach out to me at the email in my profile.   I expect our show schedule to change due to recent events beginning with rescheduling of the show next week on 1/9.  I'm confident we will post on the forum once finalized in the next week but want you to be aware before you potentially make a trip only to find the show has been rescheduled.

-Greg  

Thanks Greg, I will do that and stay in touch.

@SteveH posted:

@GregK I think it's great you're introducing your young son to model railroading.

Echoing what's already been said, maximizing play value for a 3 year old will pay off in their long term interest in the hobby.  For my, at the time 3 year old daughter, I bumped out one side of a 4' x 8' table like yours by bolting on a 2' x 4' half table to allow more play space with an auto road all the way around the perimeter.  In addition to running the trains, she loved to run the cars around the layout too.  Operating accessories were also very enjoyable for her: Log dump car, coal dump, and milk loading and unloading platforms.  The tunnel also added interest.  Best of all, she still enjoys the hobby as a teenager.

Looks great. I am surprised but I probably shouldn't be, with all the technology that our kids are growing up with now, at his ability to run conventional trains with a ZW, the CAB1, LionChief, and the LionChief App without any issues, and he is just turning three.

We just added a few switches for spurs, and he is enjoying being my conductor and throwing the switches while I back the cars in. Lionel Sawmill has been a big hit so far as well.

I'm thinking in a year or so we'll add the next 4x8 and expand to one of Ken's L-shape plans.

By the way, I've been doing a lot of reading over the last few months about layout building, electrical, etc and you've come up with a lot of great posts. So thank you for that!

I think this will be the final track plan for now. Although I could add a switch on each spur and have two tracks on each. I might try out that spacing to see if I would be able to accommodate any additional operating accessories that way or if things become too cramped. I cannot find the controller for my 2000s 497 Coaling Station so I think I’m out of luck on that one. Adding an operating car like a milk car might be fun for him.

Picked up a two track tunnel portal but I don’t think it will quite span the two tracks going around the curves in one of the corners. Will have to see if I can figure out some sort of small tunnel.

One suggestion.  For a 3 year old I would substitute the 260 bumpers.  They can take an impact.

John

Hello, as someone who recently built a 4x8 for their small children (3 & 6 yr old), I will be watching your build. For the border of my 4x8, I picked up some 1"x6" clear maple boards, stained them and wrapped the sides of the table. The table is similar to your's, where I had a 2x4 frame with 3/4" plywood sheet and topped with a 1/2" hemosote sheet. With all that the 1x6 board gives roughly a 3/4" exposed lip around the layout which I find is about perfect to catch any derailements but not intrude visually on the layout. Here is a link for you to see my layout if curious:

https://ogrforum.com/...-and-have-a-beverage

Lastly, I ended up going with two loops also, and highly recommend it. Nothing better than having both trains going with the kids. I also found if you're able, squeezing in a small trolley line adds some extra fun.

@Penn Flyer posted:

Hello, as someone who recently built a 4x8 for their small children (3 & 6 yr old), I will be watching your build. For the border of my 4x8, I picked up some 1"x6" clear maple boards, stained them and wrapped the sides of the table. The table is similar to your's, where I had a 2x4 frame with 3/4" plywood sheet and topped with a 1/2" hemosote sheet. With all that the 1x6 board gives roughly a 3/4" exposed lip around the layout which I find is about perfect to catch any derailements but not intrude visually on the layout. Here is a link for you to see my layout if curious:

https://ogrforum.com/...-and-have-a-beverage

The Cisco RR in Ken Hoganson's excellent book calls for the layout to be laid out on 2" Rigid XPS Foamboard with 1 x 4 edging.  That gives a lip of 1-1/2 inches.

If you use the 2" Foamboard and the 1 x 6 clear maple edging you suggested that would give you a lip of 3-1/2 inches.  Visually different, but probably better protection.

John

Just checked the price of those at Lowes.  1 x 6 x 8 Maple = $48 x 3 = $144 + tax for the edging.  Yikes!

Yes, I'm sure Ken's approach is well thought out. I was making reference to the Op's layout, where it looks like he has 2x4 frame, plywood, hemosote. This is similar to my table, hence my explanation of what I did. Below is the table cross section from when I built it, which gave a nice lip and had the aesthetic I liked:

Yes maple is expensive, I personally didn't care as I liked the aesthetic.

@Penn Flyer posted:

Hello, as someone who recently built a 4x8 for their small children (3 & 6 yr old), I will be watching your build. For the border of my 4x8, I picked up some 1"x6" clear maple boards, stained them and wrapped the sides of the table. The table is similar to your's, where I had a 2x4 frame with 3/4" plywood sheet and topped with a 1/2" hemosote sheet. With all that the 1x6 board gives roughly a 3/4" exposed lip around the layout which I find is about perfect to catch any derailements but not intrude visually on the layout. Here is a link for you to see my layout if curious:

https://ogrforum.com/...-and-have-a-beverage

Lastly, I ended up going with two loops also, and highly recommend it. Nothing better than having both trains going with the kids. I also found if you're able, squeezing in a small trolley line adds some extra fun.

Thanks I’ll make some time to read your thread. I’ve thought about a trolley line as well. Easy to add in somewhere. I could also elevate it for interest.

@Penn Flyer posted:

Yes, I'm sure Ken's approach is well thought out. I was making reference to the Op's layout, where it looks like he has 2x4 frame, plywood, hemosote. This is similar to my table, hence my explanation of what I did. Below is the table cross section from when I built it, which gave a nice lip and had the aesthetic I liked:

Yes maple is expensive, I personally didn't care as I liked the aesthetic.

Yeah I think on my table that would give me a 1” lip. Would have to check clearance and make sure nothing would strike it since my track is coming to the very edge of the table.

I may hold off on any finishing work until we are further along since I do want to expand this in the next year into something more semi-permanent, which would then probably keep the same footprint for a few years.

If I use 1x6x8 for the trim, that should leave me with two leftover pieces that are 46.5” long. Do you think I could use those to build a shelf under the table to hold the ZW and Command Base? My switches are command, and I will mount operating accessory and track buttons on the trim most likely. So don’t think a functional control panel is necessary.

If it were me, I'd probably buy 3x (1" x 6" x 10')s OR [1 x 10' and 2 x 8's] deepening on the table length.  For the shelf, you could buy a 2' x 4' piece of pre-cut plywood.  A deeper shelf would allow mounting terminal strips and securing cables out of the way behind the transformer and base.  Mounting the shelf on pull out drawer slides would allow easier operations, easier access to the rear connections, and it could be pushed in to get it out of the way while working on the layout.

@SteveH posted:

If it were me, I'd probably buy 3x (1" x 6" x 10')s OR [1 x 10" and 2 x 8's] deepening on the table length.  For the shelf, you could buy a 2' x 4' piece of pre-cut plywood.  A deeper shelf would allow mounting terminal strips and securing cables out of the way behind the transformer and base.  Mounting the shelf on pull out drawer slides would allow easier operations, easier access to the rear connections, and it could be pushed in to get it out of the way while working on the layout.

Thanks Steve. As a carpentry novice, I sometimes forget they make wood in lengths greater than 8 feet! Yes, 2 8' and one 10' would be enough and leave a minimal amount of extra. The 8' would go on without modification, and the 10 would be cut into 2 49.5" lengths to act as the end caps. Now that I've thought about it a bit, this is a relatively minor amount of work and would give the table that more finished feel, so I think I'll proceed with it. Can always take the trim off later if/when I expand this layout.

I'll need to find a good example of how to build the shelf/drawer on here. Buying a set of drawer rails and putting them on the shelf seems easy enough, but I need an example on how to suspend it from my benchwork so that there is enough vertical clearance to mount everything on it - the ZW being the tallest object. I have 2x4s running the length of the layout as the frame, and then there are a few 2x4 crossmembers running the width of the layout to support the plywood.

I also need to invest in a pickup truck for hauling all this wood...

@Penn Flyer How did you construct your shelf/drawer?

Here are a few examples of Control Panels mounted to drawer slides:

from @Tom Tee https://ogrforum.com/...6#158111058875962336

from @Joe Fauty  https://ogrforum.com/...29#83368077937262929

from @Brad Trout https://ogrforum.com/...1#153603996980121651

@SteveH posted:

Here are a few examples of Control Panels mounted to drawer slides:

from @Tom Tee https://ogrforum.com/...6#158111058875962336

from @Joe Fauty  https://ogrforum.com/...29#83368077937262929

from @Brad Trout https://ogrforum.com/...1#153603996980121651

Thanks Steve. I like the Brad Trout version. I need to measure the height of the ZW but could probably use 1x10 or 1x12 and suspend a shelf on rails from that.

@GregK posted:

Thanks Steve. I like the Brad Trout version. I need to measure the height of the ZW but could probably use 1x10 or 1x12 and suspend a shelf on rails from that.

If you're talking about the vertical side supports for the pull out tray, if it were mine, I would be concerned with 1" material splitting and potentially dumping some expensive electronics on the floor.

Instead, I'd suggest using 5/8" or 3/4" plywood for the uprights.

@GregK posted:

@Penn Flyer How did you construct your shelf/drawer?

Yes, so for the drawer, I had a specific size I wanted. I ended up ordering one from the below site to the size I wanted. They precut and finish the wood, ship it flat packed. You assemble with wood glue, pretty easy.

https://www.cabinetparts.com/c/doityourself-drawers

I used these suspended mount slides. Choose the size that matches the depth of the drawer. Rated for 75 lbs., they feel sturdy to me.

https://www.rockler.com/accuri...r-suspended-mounting

@Penn Flyer posted:

Yes, so for the drawer, I had a specific size I wanted. I ended up ordering one from the below site to the size I wanted. They precut and finish the wood, ship it flat packed. You assemble with wood glue, pretty easy.

https://www.cabinetparts.com/c/doityourself-drawers

I used these suspended mount slides. Choose the size that matches the depth of the drawer. Rated for 75 lbs., they feel sturdy to me.

https://www.rockler.com/accuri...r-suspended-mounting

Ahh I see. Those are cool. Did you mount the slides to the underside of your table? Or to cross members running under the table? Or something else?

@GregK posted:

Ahh I see. Those are cool. Did you mount the slides to the underside of your table? Or to cross members running under the table? Or something else?

Here is a peek "under the hood". I have the rails mounted to a pair of 2x4 crossmembers that run the width of the table. Also is a shot of the hanging shelf I made for the transformers (CW-30 & GW-180), where the 180 brick is vertically mounted on one of the legs.

Looks good. Did you build the table from the Lionel YouTube video? Looks the same as mine. I’ll use the crossmembers to suspend my shelf, with some vertical supports like Steve suggested. The ZW needs around 7.5” of clearance, so as long as I maintain 8” I can place everything on the shelf and slide it in and out.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but I’ll ask it anyway. Ill provide track power with a PW ZW. I have two independent loops although they might end up connected with switches later on. We will be running Command and LionChief only. No conventional. Can I power both loops off a single post and set to 18v? Or should I power one off the A, and one off the D? Train running would consist of one LionChief style passenger set (like the Polar Express or Super Chief) and a freight consist with a single engine.