Getting Started with a 4x8 Fastrack Build

@GregK posted:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but I’ll ask it anyway. Ill provide track power with a PW ZW. I have two independent loops although they might end up connected with switches later on. We will be running Command and LionChief only. No conventional. Can I power both loops off a single post and set to 18v? Or should I power one off the A, and one off the D? Train running would consist of one LionChief style passenger set (like the Polar Express or Super Chief) and a freight consist with a single engine.

Yes, if only running Command and LionChief and no conventional engines, you can power both loops with a single ZW output, regardless of whether the loops are connected by switches or not.  In fact, if you want to limit the locomotives' top speed, the ZW's output can be reduced from 18 volts to as little as around 14 volts with no detrimental effects to the locos.

@SteveH posted:

Yes, if only running Command and LionChief and no conventional engines, you can power both loops with a single ZW output, regardless of whether the loops are connected by switches or not.  In fact, if you want to limit the locomotives' top speed, the ZW's output can be reduced from 18 volts to as little as around 14 volts with no detrimental effects to the locos.

Thanks. I'll do the single output then. It'll simplify and reduce the amount of wiring as well. Running at a lower voltage might be good for keeping everything on the tracks.

Greg you haven't mentioned it so I will.  With the postwar ZW (and any PW transformer) it's a really good idea to add Instant breakers between the ZW outputs and the track along with TVS diodes.  The use of both will help protect the electronics in the locomotives from damage caused by Transient Voltage Spikes that occur during derailments.

@SteveH posted:

Greg you haven't mentioned it so I will.  With the postwar ZW (and any PW transformer) it's a really good idea to add Instant breakers between the ZW outputs and the track along with TVS diodes.  The use of both will help protect the electronics in the locomotives from damage caused by Transient Voltage Spikes that occur during derailments.

Yes, absolutely. I've read your electrical posts about these subjects and will be doing this.

Getting the wiring started. I realize this is probably a huge pain on a large layout, but at this size it is kind of calming. Or maybe it’s just that everyone is asleep and it’s just me, my beer, and my trains in a quiet basement. 😂

I've done some searching about lubricants, but figure I'll ask here instead of starting a thread and inciting the "search" mob. I was leaning toward purchasing something like this https://www.amazon.com/Lubrica...Caps%2C53&sr=8-2

Is this sufficient for grease and oil? Do I need anything else? I have some squeaky rolling stock, and have noticed some hesitation when starting in my long dormant Lionmaster SD80 (from the early 2000s). I think everything needs a once over and some (proper) lubrication. I can learn that from YouTube...just want to make sure I buy something easy to use. Tagging @SteveH due to your much appreciate helpfulness.

Track wiring is completed. Onto some accessories next. I really liked working with the Wago connectors. Circuit breakers and TVS diodes are on the way, so I’ll add them in soon.

Toddler tool bench doubling as a good control panel for now. 😂

Greg, funny you should ask me of all people about lubricants.  I recently looked into this as well because I wasn't satisfied with the Atlas brand lubricants I'd been using.  After reading different threads here on OGR, spanning back a few years, I opted to give Labelle a try.  I ordered the 3-pack that includes the 102,106, and 107 lubricants.  It came yesterday and I'm not ready to use it just yet.  GRJ and others also highly recommend Lucas Red-n-Tacky for gearbox use, others prefer different Lithium based products similar to Labelle 106.  I didn't read anywhere here on the forums where anyone said anything bad about Labelle.  I guess that means it's pretty good .  Feel free to elicit other opinions.

Your layout is coming along very nicely.  Oh and btw., I like the temporary control panel.

@SteveH posted:

Greg, funny you should ask me of all people about lubricants.  I recently looked into this as well because I wasn't satisfied with the Atlas brand lubricants I'd been using.  After reading different threads here on OGR, spanning back a few years, I opted to give Labelle a try.  I ordered the 3-pack that includes the 102,106, and 107 lubricants.  It came yesterday and I'm not ready to use it just yet.  GRJ and others also highly recommend Lucas Red-n-Tacky for gearbox use, others prefer different Lithium based products similar to Labelle 106.  I didn't read anywhere here on the forums where anyone said anything bad about Labelle.  I guess that means it's pretty good .  Feel free to elicit other opinions.

Your layout is coming along very nicely.  Oh and btw., I like the temporary control panel.

Thanks. Funny enough. I just ordered the Labelle 106 and 107. Should work for my light usage.

For the track I ran a 14 AWG bus the length of the layout and tapped into for the track feeders. For wiring the accessories, do you think a similar approach makes sense? I was also thinking that maybe a centrally located terminal block, and then direct runs to each accessory might be simpler. Just trying to think it through and keep it adjustable and not over wire or complicate it.

A centrally located terminal block with each individual accessory would certainly work, but in the end will use more wire than other methods.  Over time, it can also end up becoming a bit of a maze of wires, depending on methods used.

If you plan to wire all the accessories to the same ZW output, my suggestion would be to run a 14 -16 gauge accessory wiring bus under the table like so:

I also suggest leaving ~ 12"+ slack in the bus branches for future connections (via wago connectors).

This or a similar configuration will allow using shorter feeders with smaller wires to individual accessories and help keep the wiring more organized. IMO.  If and when you add more lighted buildings and street lights, etc, the buss will already be close by them.

One might also consider just using an open ended loop all the way around the layout, but the disadvantage to that would be significant voltage drop at the far end.  Closing the bus loop (attaching the end back to the beginning) may cause other issues.

I have found this pictured method to work well and provide much flexibility in future modifications and accessory additions.

@SteveH posted:

A centrally located terminal block with each individual accessory would certainly work, but in the end will use more wire than other methods.  Over time, it can also end up becoming a bit of a maze of wires, depending on methods used.

If you plan to wire all the accessories to the same ZW output, my suggestion would be to run a 14 -16 gauge accessory wiring bus under the table like so:

I also suggest leaving ~ 12"+ slack in the bus branches for future connections (via wago connectors).

This or a similar configuration will allow using shorter feeders with smaller wires to individual accessories and help keep the wiring more organized. IMO.  If and when you add more lighted buildings and street lights, etc, the buss will already be close by them.

One might also consider just using an open ended loop all the way around the layout, but the disadvantage to that would be significant voltage drop at the far end.  Closing the bus loop (attaching the end back to the beginning) may cause other issues.

I have found this pictured method to work well and provide much flexibility in future modifications and accessory additions.

Thanks. I was trying to picture the most efficient solution in my mind, and your drawing and explanation helped. I wired the track this way, with a bus up the middle then branches left and right to each end of the layout where the track connections are. I’ll do the same for the accessories and probably use my 5 way Wago connectors so that there are plenty of connection opportunities per branch.

The other issue is the buttons for the operating accessories. I can wire the hot right to the bus, but then would need to run the ground to the button on the control panel or fascia and then back to the bus? Which could be a lot of wiring. Or could I run the ground to the button at the panel/fascia, and then back to any common? (Like a connection right at panel/ZW if it’s closer?)

Button activation will apply for things like the Sawmill, Icing, Gateman, etc.

@SteveH posted:

Greg, funny you should ask me of all people about lubricants.  I recently looked into this as well because I wasn't satisfied with the Atlas brand lubricants I'd been using.  After reading different threads here on OGR, spanning back a few years, I opted to give Labelle a try.  I ordered the 3-pack that includes the 102,106, and 107 lubricants.  It came yesterday and I'm not ready to use it just yet.  GRJ and others also highly recommend Lucas Red-n-Tacky for gearbox use, others prefer different Lithium based products similar to Labelle 106.  I didn't read anywhere here on the forums where anyone said anything bad about Labelle.  I guess that means it's pretty good .  Feel free to elicit other opinions.

Your layout is coming along very nicely.  Oh and btw., I like the temporary control panel.

I use them all the time on my N Gauge.  Never tried them on O Gauge.  I often use SAE 5W-20 for general lubrication on O Gauge.

John

Greg, The source ground provided to each accessory button can either come directly from the transformer or from the accessory ground bus.  Only one switched ground wire connection out of each button to each single action accessory is necessary.

On another matter, I understand that you want to minimize wiring, but here's something else to possibly consider for added interest and play value. With the 4 ZW outputs:

• A-U - power to outside track loop
• D-U power to inside track loop and spurs (or vice versa with A-U / DU loop control being personal preference)
• B-U action accessories (wired as suggested above)
• C - Lights (only one wire from transformer) and the lights' ground can come from the accessory ground bus wire (U).

If you don't already have plans for all 4 ZW outputs, I find it's nice to power the lights independently.  They can be on (night) or off (day) AND you can control their brightness regardless of everything else's optimal voltage.  The kids may also like a Lights switch either mounted to or beside the control panel, wired in line, that they can turn the lights on and off without adjusting the transformer voltage.

If all ZW outputs are already going to be used for other circuits, a second small variable AC transformer (phased with the ZW would also work).

Even if you at first don't use another transformer/output dedicated to lights, if you add a separate bus wire to power lights, they can be switched on and off independently.  Separating the lights later for brightness control would only require switching this light bus wire connection to another transformer output.

Food for thought...

@Craftech posted:

...I often use SAE 5W-20 for general lubrication on O Gauge.

John

John, thanks for the SAE 5W-20 recommendation.  I've seen other's on OGR recommend this as well, particularly the synthetic varieties.

https://www.amazon.com/GE-Door...ps%2C152&sr=8-41

Would these be sufficient for push button operation of accessories like the Sawmill, Icing, Gateman, Crossing Gate, etc...? Just want something easy to flush mount on the panel or fascia for "press and hold" operation.

@GregK posted:

https://www.amazon.com/GE-Door...ps%2C152&sr=8-41

Would these be sufficient for push button operation of accessories like the Sawmill, Icing, Gateman, Crossing Gate, etc...? Just want something easy to flush mount on the panel or fascia for "press and hold" operation.

Greg, A doorbell switch like the one you linked would probably be ok for these accessories.   Doorbell circuits in the US typically work at up to 24VAC and around 2 Amps.  This switch and the others I looked at don't have current ratings on them, but they're probably slightly overrated (in terms of current handling capacity) for the intended application.  I don't see any downside to trying one, other than the minimal time and cost involved if they don't perform well in the long term.

Maybe others have tried them for these applications and could provide a definitive answer.

@GregK posted:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but I’ll ask it anyway. Ill provide track power with a PW ZW. I have two independent loops although they might end up connected with switches later on. We will be running Command and LionChief only. No conventional. Can I power both loops off a single post and set to 18v? Or should I power one off the A, and one off the D? Train running would consist of one LionChief style passenger set (like the Polar Express or Super Chief) and a freight consist with a single engine.

Yep, no problem at all powering off a single post.  The postwar ZW delivers some or all of it's power capability to any and all of the terminals.  In any case, with what you'll be running on the layout, the transformer will be loafing.

I run a 140 foot mainline with one PowerHouse 180 brick, and I've had three trains running on it with smoke active on all of them, no problem at all.

if you can build a 7x8 table.that will allow 072 curves,so if you get larger equipment you will not have any problems.that is the extent of my table.plus semi scale looks real good on a bigger layout.

@SteveH posted:

Greg, A doorbell switch like the one you linked would probably be ok for these accessories.   Doorbell circuits in the US typically work at up to 24VAC and around 2 Amps.  This switch and the others I looked at don't have current ratings on them, but they're probably slightly overrated (in terms of current handling capacity) for the intended application.  I don't see any downside to trying one, other than the minimal time and cost involved if they don't perform well in the long term.

Maybe others have tried them for these applications and could provide a definitive answer.

Thanks. I suppose I could also be a little more "elegant" and use something like this - https://www.amazon.com/Momenta...&sr=8-3&th=1

I assume I would just need to drill the size of the mounting hole, stick it in, and wire it up.

I'm probably overthinking it.

@SteveH posted:

Greg, The source ground provided to each accessory button can either come directly from the transformer or from the accessory ground bus.  Only one switched ground wire connection out of each button to each single action accessory is necessary.

On another matter, I understand that you want to minimize wiring, but here's something else to possibly consider for added interest and play value. With the 4 ZW outputs:

• A-U - power to outside track loop
• D-U power to inside track loop and spurs (or vice versa with A-U / DU loop control being personal preference)
• B-U action accessories (wired as suggested above)
• C - Lights (only one wire from transformer) and the lights' ground can come from the accessory ground bus wire (U).

If you don't already have plans for all 4 ZW outputs, I find it's nice to power the lights independently.  They can be on (night) or off (day) AND you can control their brightness regardless of everything else's optimal voltage.  The kids may also like a Lights switch either mounted to or beside the control panel, wired in line, that they can turn the lights on and off without adjusting the transformer voltage.

If all ZW outputs are already going to be used for other circuits, a second small variable AC transformer (phased with the ZW would also work).

Even if you at first don't use another transformer/output dedicated to lights, if you add a separate bus wire to power lights, they can be switched on and off independently.  Separating the lights later for brightness control would only require switching this light bus wire connection to another transformer output.

Food for thought...

Thanks Steve. I like the idea on the lights and I will run a bus for those. We'll be adding street lights, maybe some lit buildings, etc at some point and that makes sense. If we feel the need, I could also add a trolley track in the middle of the layout to add another moving piece of equipment. That would probably result in:

A - Both Loops
B - Operating Accessories
C - Lights
D - Trolley Line

That would cover this layout. I expect this layout to last about a year or so - before starting to expand. Maybe another 4x8 to expand to one of Ken's L-shape layouts, which would add a lot of operating interest for us.

@GregK posted:

Thanks. I suppose I could also be a little more "elegant" and use something like this - https://www.amazon.com/Momenta...&sr=8-3&th=1

I assume I would just need to drill the size of the mounting hole, stick it in, and wire it up.

I'm probably overthinking it.

Overthinking sometimes results in only doing what is necessary.

If you decide on this type of push button:

• I think it would either need to be mounted to a fairly thin panel (affixed with the included nut) or hot glued into a thicker board/facia.
• The screw lug terminals on this switch may be appealing.
• I'm not sure which of the five options on that page you were considering, but I'd suggest either of the 5Amp buttons (the 12mm choice is only rated for 2A).

@SteveH posted:

Overthinking sometimes results in only doing what is necessary.

If you decide on this type of push button:

• I think it would either need to be mounted to a fairly thin panel (affixed with the included nut) or hot glued into a thicker board/facia.
• The screw lug terminals on this switch may be appealing.
• I'm not sure which of the five options on that page you were considering, but I'd suggest either of the 5Amp buttons (the 12mm choice is only rated for 2A).

I found a version that is 16mm, multi-color, and rated for 6A at 125VAC.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...OSLUO29ZUJ2&th=1

Also comes pre-wired, with what I assume is 18-20 AWG but I think would work for low current / short run. I would either put them in the panel - like the drawer we talked about, if I do that, or mount along the frame which would be going through a 2x4, or a 2x4 + 1x6 if I add the 1x6 to make a nicer fascia. In-Laws are coming to visit in a few weeks and will have the truck...might be a good time to pickup the wood for the fascia. But it is also the wife's birthday weekend, so have to play that carefully.

The pull-out shelf suggested by Steve H. is a practical and space-efficient for mounting control gear and related stuff. For my L-shaped layout, I ordered one pull-out drawer from a vendor and made another one like it on my own. One drawer is for 11 switch controllers, track power toggle switches (on-off) to four sidings, and DC track power for control of three trolley lines on an upper level. The other drawer is for the control gear: a Lionel 135w brick, a TMCC Command Base, and a PowerMaster; plus two MTH Z1000 transformers (one for accessories and lighted buildings at 14v, and the other for direct 14v power to all 11 switches). Because of space limitations in my Train Room, my perimeter aisle space is tight, so the pull-out drawers provided convenient access to control gear, but they can be pushed under the platforms and out of the way.

My perimeter fascia board is modest -- a 3/4ths x 4-inch board painted Lionel orange installed with a 3/4-inch lip above the platform. Admittedly, that's not much "protection" against a loco falling off the platform to the floor, but my tracks are set back about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the platform, so that lip is enough. I've never had a problem. I mounted the control switches for action accessors on the fascia  boards - handy for kid visitors and my great-grandkids.

Other Forum-ites have commented - "provide space for operating accessories."  Right on! Kids love to operate action  accessories; perhaps more than actually running trains around endless loops, which can quickly become boring to youngsters.

A space-optimizing tip ... consider adding a trolley line(s) as an upper level with bump-and-go trolleys and Plasticville buildings along the route. Or install Dept 56 lighted porcelain buildings; they are pricey but spectacular. Some are animated.

My track plan (initially rendered in ANYRAIL, but attached as JPG images) and some layout pix attached. Although it's not an action accessary, the DINOSAUR PARK feature is a hit with  my dino-crazed great-grandsons. They like to load the dinosaurs aboard the Lionel DINOSAUR TRAIN set and transport the animals to their "summer feeding grounds."

Carry on, valiantly ...

Mike M.   LCCA 12394

Looks like we’re running conventional after all…

My first set from 1989 or so.

Greg. I thought I remembered you mentioning the possibility of conventional operation (maybe in another thread).  That's why I suggested two ZW handles, one for each loop.   Glad you got your old loco running.

@SteveH posted:

Greg. I thought I remembered you mentioning the possibility of conventional operation (maybe in another thread).  That's why I suggested two ZW handles, one for each loop.   Glad you got your old loco running.

My conventional is limited to that set, and a similar era no frills Conrail GP7, which when I was 6 or 7 was the coolest thing ever. Always was a Conrail fan. I will probably run a second bus for the other handle, and power the loops independently like you suggested. Not that we will run much conventional but the flexibility and ability to power down one track if desired isn’t a bad thing. And it’s only a little more wire.

Pulled out some old Gooseneck Street Lamps. Lionel really used some tiny wire in those. The leads are very short and the gauge is too small to use a Wago connector. Guess I will need to learn how to solder.

@GregK posted:

Pulled out some old Gooseneck Street Lamps. Lionel really used some tiny wire in those. The leads are very short and the gauge is too small to use a Wago connector. Guess I will need to learn how to solder.

You can use suitcase connectors for these low power street lamps to bridge the gap to a longer larger wire that will fit the Wagos

@SteveH posted:

You can use suitcase connectors for these low power street lamps to bridge the gap to a longer larger wire that will fit the Wagos

Ordered some today. Will give that a try. Love always ordering 100 pieces of all these electrical parts when I need 2! 😂 But I’ll add them to my kit and I know I’ll use them over time.