Has anyone placed an order from the new MTH catalog with Charlie Ro???

Elliot, when did you see the 20% message?  I just quickly went through the motions of pre-ordering an MTH premier diesel from the 2017V2 catalog, and made it all the way up to the screen where I would enter my credit card info -- but I didn't.  My shopping cart shows product subtotal + shipping, but no 20% deposit message yet.  I hardly ever order from Charlie using the online store -- prefer to call in my orders, the way I've been ordering from Charlie since the 1970's.  

David

David, I called my order in and talked to Butch, just like I've done so many times before. I don't order online either, I guess that makes us old school. I find the whole thing rather ironic after our discussion on this very subject earlier this week. It's not about the money, and I know I'll get the trains, but if this a shift in policy, it would be nice to know.

Interesting development....

Does Charlie normally stock these MTH items? That might be why?

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

David, I called my order in and talked to Butch, just like I've done so many times before. I don't order online either, I guess that makes us old school. I find the whole thing rather ironic after our discussion on this very subject earlier this week. It's not about the money, and I know I'll get the trains, but if this a shift in policy, it would be nice to know.

Did you ask Butch about it?

BobbyD posted:

Does Charlie normally stock these MTH items? That might be why?

That would make some sense, because the a few of the items were on the unusual side, namely the Metro Transit Bombardier Cars and matching engine. But Amtrak superliners?

EscapeRocks posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

David, I called my order in and talked to Butch, just like I've done so many times before. I don't order online either, I guess that makes us old school. I find the whole thing rather ironic after our discussion on this very subject earlier this week. It's not about the money, and I know I'll get the trains, but if this a shift in policy, it would be nice to know.

Did you ask Butch about it?

I prodded him a little bit on this while on the phone, hoping to get an answer, but he seemed to be staying "on script" and that was what the computer was telling him for those items. We even had an email exchange after that, where I hinted at it again, but made no headway. That's why I'm throwing this out to everyone here. It's not really a big deal, but it is a surprising change from longstanding history.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Elliot, when did you see the 20% message?  I just quickly went through the motions of pre-ordering an MTH premier diesel from the 2017V2 catalog, and made it all the way up to the screen where I would enter my credit card info -- but I didn't.  My shopping cart shows product subtotal + shipping, but no 20% deposit message yet.  I hardly ever order from Charlie using the online store -- prefer to call in my orders, the way I've been ordering from Charlie since the 1970's.  

David

Wait, I think I missed something. You CAN preorder MTH V2 stuff from Charles Ro ONLINE??? I have been trying for more than a week to find the online preorder spot, but couldn't wait and ordered from someone else.

Maybe pre-order is pre-production. No who you are ordering from but MTH perhaps. Manufacturers will only make a specific number of engines based on pre-orders. That way they don't have to worry about overstocked items. I believe Lionel has already been doing this.

Santa Fe 3751 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Elliot, when did you see the 20% message?  I just quickly went through the motions of pre-ordering an MTH premier diesel from the 2017V2 catalog, and made it all the way up to the screen where I would enter my credit card info -- but I didn't.  My shopping cart shows product subtotal + shipping, but no 20% deposit message yet.  I hardly ever order from Charlie using the online store -- prefer to call in my orders, the way I've been ordering from Charlie since the 1970's.  

David

Wait, I think I missed something. You CAN preorder MTH V2 stuff from Charles Ro ONLINE??? I have been trying for more than a week to find the online preorder spot, but couldn't wait and ordered from someone else.

I don't know if you can order online, since I've never tried. I'm beginning to think that this isn't really a change in policy, what I've run up against, is simply a slow roll out of the new catalog, ie they're not really ready to take orders. I'm hoping that when they get caught up, things will return to normal.

Joeceleb posted:

Maybe pre-order is pre-production. No who you are ordering from but MTH perhaps. Manufacturers will only make a specific number of engines based on pre-orders. That way they don't have to worry about overstocked items. I believe Lionel has already been doing this.

Pre-order is always pre-production. Pre-order is that window of time between when a catalog goes public and when dealer's orders are due into the manufacturer. That is the cutoff date after which dealers who do pre-order discounts, raise prices to normal retail levels.

I don't read the fine print in the catalog, but if MTH was doing something like the Lionel BTO, we would have heard about it. It would have been all over the forum. This matter is between the dealer and the customer, unless MTH has changed their payment terms for their dealers, in which case it could be passed along to the customers, but I seriously doubt that that is what is happening in this case.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

... I don't know if you can order online, since I've never tried. I'm beginning to think that this isn't really a change in policy, what I've run up against, is simply a slow roll out of the new catalog, ie they're not really ready to take orders. I'm hoping that when they get caught up, things will return to normal.

Charlie's website hasn't reached a point where we can "easily" pre-order new catalog items without knowing the product numbers and searching for them.  They do often print out a few-page pamphlet that contains newly catalog'd items -- but I've never seen that easily translate to online ordering.  You need to know the product number and search for it directly, or look for the item in various categories (i.e., steam locomotives, diesel locomotives, boxcars, tank cars, etc...) where the new items are integrated into the list of items already in-stock from earlier catalogs.

As for pre-ordering items from the new MTH catalog online, it looks like you can... because I went as far as the credit-card screen.  I'm not sure if the ENTIRE catalog has been entered into the online store yet, but the one item I placed in the shopping cart was definitely in the online store -- just noted as "out of stock - add to cart for backorder".

As for any pre-order deposit... if there is one for the item I added to my shopping cart, it wasn't yet evident up through the point where you'd enter your credit card info.  Possibly afterwards?  But like I said earlier, I tend to call the store directly and order via phone.

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

As for pre-ordering items from the new MTH catalog online, it looks like you can... because I went as far as the credit-card screen.  I'm not sure if the ENTIRE catalog has been entered into the online store yet, but the one item I placed in the shopping cart was definitely in the online store -- just noted as "out of stock - add to cart for backorder".

Those were the words Butch used, to which my reply was "I know". Usually, when I call, I ask if they are ready to take orders on the new catalog. I forgot to do that this time. Perhaps trying to order very early in the process is counter productive.

If you're planning on getting anything, let us know when you pull the trigger, and tell us how it went.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

...  I don't read the fine print in the catalog, but if MTH was doing something like the Lionel BTO, we would have heard about it. It would have been all over the forum.  ...

Lionel is the only importer that really made a "big splash" about BTO, because they have such a large dealer network (compared to MTH, Atlas-O, and Sunset/GGD) and wanted to step away from managing product inventory Stateside starting a few years ago for big-ticket items.  By going BTO, it's now the dealers/distributors who manage inventory of any "extra" units they chose to order beyond the units backed with confirmed customer pre-orders.

I'd almost be inclined to say MTH, Atlas-O, and Sunset/GGD have been "BTO" all along for many years now.  They just didn't make a big deal of it the way Lionel chose to do with all the marketing gibberish.  We could argue that Sunset/GGD has been strictly "BTO", since enthusiasts typically reserve product directly with Scott Mann at Sunset/GGD -- no dealer middleman.  And I get the impression that the only "inventory" that Sunset/GGD has Stateside are those pieces where a pre-order customer cancelled or backed out.

MTH and Atlas-O seem to have healthy dealer networks (MTH moreso than Atlas-O).  And for esoteric road-name offerings, it's probably safe to assume those products have been -- and will continue to be -- BTO.

Aside from Sunset/GGD, the important nuance to keep in mind about Lionel, MTH and Atlas-O's BTO is:  It's really BTO between the importer and the DEALER/DISTRIBUTOR -- not the consumer!  So exactly "how many extra" units are in the marketplace above and beyond those units actually ordered by consumers is largely an unknown number except, of course, by the importer (who isn't gonna tell us anyway).

Bottom line... for the most part, it's really business-as-usual for everybody UNTIL dealers tighten their orders for "extra" BTO items.  The thing that Elliot tripped over may actually be a policy-change with Charlie Ro in terms of pre-order deposits.  Charlie hasn't required ANY deposit on Lionel pre-orders for as long as I've purchased from him (back to the 1970's).  In recent years, I've noticed Charlie carrying more MTH product -- which isn't all that surprising since Lionel's move to BTO was really a poke-in-the-eye to their largest dealers (by allowing smaller shops to more easily compete for pre-order business).  But I don't think Charlie "stocks" lots of MTH or Atlas-O product -- if any -- beyond what his clients may pre-order... in essence operating on a BTO model for those items.

I ordered a bunch of Atlas-O well car containers from Charlie earlier this year, which required a 20% deposit since it was considered a "special order item".  Perhaps Charlie is also treating the more expensive MTH items similarly starting with the new catalog(s).  I know I ordered MTH Premier from Charlie a couple of years ago with no deposit required.  But that might be changing now if too many customers cancelled pre-orders -- leaving Charlie holding the product(s) in inventory.

I will say this to any dealer reading this forum:  Given the uncertainty and volatility of the overseas Asian labor market right now (resulting in ridiculous product delays like we're currently experiencing with Atlas-O locomotives), there's NO WAY I would place deposits on pre-orders as a general rule.  I did it ONCE with Charlie Ro for the Atlas-O containers, because it wasn't a huge order anyway... and I'm reasonably comfortable that Atlas-O won't cancel production of the containers.  If they do, then I've purchased enough with Charlie to know that my deposit can be applied to something else I'm gonna buy from him.  And I know that Charles Ro Supply isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

But as a general rule... my pre-orders now are far and few-between (compared to my buying pattern years ago).  So when I do pre-order a one-off item nowadays, "no deposit" is the rule.  And payment in full upon delivery will be the norm.  I'm not about to start bankrolling the dealer or the importer to help them make profits in their business.  As the sayings go:  No risk -- no reward.  No pain -- no gain.  So why should the consumer (who isn't making any profit on the deal) be the bearer of risk.  Sorry folks... if that's the direction we're heading, I'll gladly watch from the sidelines.    After all, the items most of us are buying today fall into the purely-nice-to-have, bonus category.  Toy train production could shut down in its entirety tomorrow, and most of us already have more trains than our grandchildren would ever need to have fun! 

David

David, I totally agree with everything in your long post. It really sums up the current situation nicely.

After about four years of crazy buying, I find myself slowing down quite a bit too. My purchases have nearly filled my massive layout, so I need to be more selective.

There is one possible explanation for my recent experience with Charlie Ro that is not as foreboding as we are making this out to be. I mentioned this earlier, but perhaps they just aren't finished entering the catalog. Sure, they have the numbers in, but if they haven't set the prices, it could result in what I saw. In a way it kind of makes sense, as Rail King is in the catalog before Premier, and those pieces came up normal.

Time will tell on this. I hope that others placing pre-orders will join this conversation, and share their experiences.

Are you SURE it was really their site?  There are a lot of bogus sites out there that LOOK LIKE the site you want.  All they are out to do is steal your credit info, and or, install a trojan on your computer.

Fred Brenek posted:

Are you SURE it was really their site?  There are a lot of bogus sites out there that LOOK LIKE the site you want.  All they are out to do is steal your credit info, and or, install a trojan on your computer.

In my case that is a moot point. I never order trains online. I called directly. Something to be said for being old school, and fairly low tech.

I had a friend that preorder a MTH Hiawatha Steam Engine from Charles Ro last Fall from Vol 1 2017 catalog where he had to put down a deposit because Ro said is was special order item.  His order was over the phone. 

Only Charles Ro can answer this issue authoritatively, but usually a special order means that the dealer is ordering an item specifically for you and not for store stock.

Charles Ro has quite a bit of shelf/warehouse stock and preorders a lot of stock on its own initiative, not on behalf of a customer.

So if you order something that Ro had no intention of ordering for its own stock, it's likely considered a special order.

As for the 20 percentage down, I can see where any dealer today would expect that kind of commitment for a special order. It lessens the dealer's risk and increases the likelihood that the buyer will follow through on the sale.

But I have never special-ordered anything from Charles Ro, so I can't say whether this is a change in policy, from personal experience.

BIG BOY 4005  I too am old school I call on the phone to order parts trains smoke fluid.

Jim R. posted:

... As for the 20 percentage down, I can see where any dealer today would expect that kind of commitment for a special order. It lessens the dealer's risk and increases the likelihood that the buyer will follow through on the sale.

...

While it may seem "reasonable" for a dealer to want a deposit on some items to lessen their risk, many dealers continue to order "extra" BTO units because they want them on hand when enthusiasts decide to buy after seeing product in the store or reading online reviews.  So there's a bit of a conundrum there.  I guess it all boils down to a dealer's confidence that he can sell through one category of items vs. another.  Using Charlie as an example, he still has NYC ESE Hudsons, UP FEF's, T1's, GS4's, and Allegheny's in his inventory, which he obviously purchased as BTO "extra's".  Yet when I pre-ordered a bunch of Atlas-O CSX "How Tomorrow Moves" containers, they wanted a 20% deposit. 

It is what it is, and we all make the ultimate decision to purchase with a deposit or take our business elsewhere.  I was buying some other items from Charlie that didn't require a deposit, so it seemed easy to just pay the deposit for the "special order" Atlas-O containers and not worry about it.  But as a general rule, I don't wanna get into the habit of paying deposits with a bunch of dealers -- just because the dealers wanna give the impression that the industry is moving in that direction.   

David

I ordered the Hiawatha. IIRC, there are two road numbers available; I wanted road #103.  Looking around, I recall most retailers having one version (#100?) listed for preorder, and the other was either special order or more $$. I called Charlie and spoke with Butch; he informed me that the item I wanted was special order, and he'd get me a price. I put down the 20% (same price as the other version) because I wanted this particular item. 

As to why the deposits: I really don't know. It wouldn't be the first time I'd be wrong about something, but, it seems with the Hiawatha, one version looks to be "mass produced" and perhaps the other a special order for those who really want a different road number?

I'm happy I'm getting exactly what I want; I didn't mind putting down a deposit this time. 

Considering the loooong lead times on train items, I'm not willing to put a deposit down.  A lot can happen in the months (or years) between order and delivery, both on my end and on the dealer's.  (I'm absolutely not suggesting that Ro is unscrupulous or on shaky ground.)

I placed an order with Marios Trains and was told that they needed a percentage down. I didn't argue because it was a small order. If that is going to be the case why put in a big order and have that money sitting there and waiting for whenever for the product to come. I'll just wait till it comes out and hope to get it or do without.   Not a fan of paying for preorders

No deposit required from us Muffins..... 

It doesn't bother me at all.  I've ordered from three dealers in the past year; two required a down payment.  I trust them so it's not a big deal.  What are they gonna do, keep my money and not send the product?  They've got too much to lose for that.

Ro stocks very little MTH , but Charlie tells me he will order whatever I want. I ordered the GE EVO from him 2 years ago and just preordered MTH Halloween cars.

Joe G

Just to follow-up here... Looks like Charlie sent out an email with his latest MTH "price guide" for MTH's latest 2017 catalogs.  Bottom line... if the item you're ordering is in this price guide, then it will be stocked regularly -- and presumably no need for a deposit when pre-ordering.  However, if the item you'd like to order is NOT in the price guide, then you should call the store to check availability and pricing, and it can be "special ordered" for you -- presumably requiring the 20% deposit.

David

I placed my order with MR. MUFFINS when he first came out with it and he gave me a sweet deal with the Heavy Pacific and the passenger set combined.  Thanks STEVE!!!!

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Just to follow-up here... Looks like Charlie sent out an email with his latest MTH "price guide" for MTH's latest 2017 catalogs.  Bottom line... if the item you're ordering is in this price guide, then it will be stocked regularly -- and presumably no need for a deposit when pre-ordering.  However, if the item you'd like to order is NOT in the price guide, then you should call the store to check availability and pricing, and it can be "special ordered" for you -- presumably requiring the 20% deposit.

David

I just saw the list, and of course, the items in question weren't on it, so they really are special order. In the past, I was under the impression that the entire catalog was included, but this practice makes business sense, and limits exposure to the massive and numerous catalogs.