Won’t help my local hobby shop, why pay full retail if I can buy from one of the large online stores that have/enjoy volume discount
rthomps posted:Rusty Traque posted:rthomps posted:Second, dump the income tax and institute (as Landsteiner says) a VAT that acts as a brake on consumption and encourages saving and other good things. Time to do ... but there is no political will to make anything rational happen.
Quick research shows VAT in Europe runs between 20%-25%, depending on country.
Are you ready to pay that much more for goods and services? Especially if based on list price vs. discount price? (I don't know if it is or isn't.)
Rusty
It's complicated - and takes much more discussion than we can do on the OGR site. (We can, however, maintain our claim that toy trains are never to be taxed!
 
There would be (presumably - HA! HA!) a reduction in income taxes. Complicated as I said. It isn't going to happen anyway anytime soon.
The Europeans also still pay income taxes.
Seems to be a fixed rate. [EDIT:] A lot of them appear to be higher rates than what we pay.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:rthomps posted:Rusty Traque posted:rthomps posted:Second, dump the income tax and institute (as Landsteiner says) a VAT that acts as a brake on consumption and encourages saving and other good things. Time to do ... but there is no political will to make anything rational happen.
Quick research shows VAT in Europe runs between 20%-25%, depending on country.
Are you ready to pay that much more for goods and services? Especially if based on list price vs. discount price? (I don't know if it is or isn't.)
Rusty
It's complicated - and takes much more discussion than we can do on the OGR site. (We can, however, maintain our claim that toy trains are never to be taxed!
There would be (presumably - HA! HA!) a reduction in income taxes. Complicated as I said. It isn't going to happen anyway anytime soon.
The Europeans also still pay income taxes.
Seems to be a fixed rate.
Rusty
Complicated - and very political, as I said. 
So much dreaming going on here. If you live in California and order from that big on line and brick and mortar store, you are supposed to pay Calif tax, as that is the state you live in and will be consuming your purchase. It will fall to that store to pay the state of Calif what they want.
Dream on about a VAT tax. The only way the politicians will get a VAT tax is if they put it on top of everything else; Real Estate, Income, Sales, etc.
What was the last tax you saw go away? The sales tax in NY was 1%, for the duration of the war. That was WW2.
You have to keep the trough full for the piggies - more is never enough - the only thing a politician does is spend your money, and expect you to be grateful for it.
Most of my train buying is on line, local brick and mortar have in some of my past experience failed to matched their own on-line price plus local sales tax. (Pretty sad when you gouge local customers). Supply and demand.
Vendors like RO , MB Kline, Just Trains Delaware, Hennings, Grzybowski, treat me as a valued customer, have good inventory, and competitive pricing. On line is where I'll continue to shop.
justakid posted:Ok, you are right about "new" purchases. But how will you like paying your state say..8% sales tax on that "used" "new in the box. Unopened "
engine you already paid tax on when new. A $1000 sale at say 8% is $80 you gift to that state
If it's a private sale, there's no sales tax involved.
I'm with Chief Justice Roberts, BIGKID and JUSTAKID on the sales tax issue.
- This is an issue for Congress, not the courts. (That way, nothing ever gets done.)
- States likely will set a minimum dollar volume before sales tax liability is incurred. (They will not want to deal with the pittance they would collect from me due to their own cost to do so.)
- Resale of an item on which sales tax already was paid should be exempt; otherwise, we all can claim sales tax-exempt status based on the assertion our purchases will be resold. (Plan on keeping receipts for every purchase in that case to prove sales tax already was paid.)
What, me worry?
Most states, it's based on buyer's location. I'm in NYC, so 8.875 percent. Under this ruling, if I were buying 3-rail items, I'd probably buy locally more often now - shipping keeps going up - the combo of shipping and tax is pretty high. Mostly I buy 2-rail, which most places nearby don't sell.
One more aspect to the taxes here - and I would guess it applies to most states with a use tax - if you buy something out of state, and bring it back for use in your state of residence, you might owe use tax - specifically, if the tax rate is lower where you bought it than where you live. It even applies in-state - if you buy in a place in New York with a lower tax rate than where you live, you owe use tax on the difference in the rate.
Where it's most likely to affect me - something like a high-end purchase - say, a diesel from MMW (already a stretch), or a steamer from Lee Marsh (not that the latter is possible for me, anyway). The tax on a diesel would be something like $225.
David
Mallard4468 posted:justakid posted:Ok, you are right about "new" purchases. But how will you like paying your state say..8% sales tax on that "used" "new in the box. Unopened "
engine you already paid tax on when new. A $1000 sale at say 8% is $80 you gift to that state
If it's a private sale, there's no sales tax involved.
want to bet?
HCSader73 posted:Norton posted:It begs the question, how will it be enforced? If I sell in my state I have to get a state sales tax ID number to sell in my state. Then fill out forms monthly, quarterly or yearly depending on sales. Will every business have to get their own tax ID number for every state? Will states have the ability to monitor credit card transactions? Talk about a can of worms.
Pete
Nothing is ever as bad as we fear, or as good as we hope for. If you are incorporated, then you should already have an EIN. If you sell as an individual, your SSN is your tax ID number.
social security numbers are not to be used in this manner any more.
calif issues a resale number
So I can still walk in to a store in a "non tax" state and buy tax free right?
I would buy at local train shows as much as I can.
Local train shows are generally not exempt either but often no one bothers to enforce or collect. Not long ago a street barbecue vendor was called in by the state of Ne and assessed tax and penalties for selling without collecting the tax due on his sales. He then called his recently ex wife demanding that she pay her half of the tax. Her divorce lawyer, however, had cleverly inserted into the settlement agreement that he was to get the barbecue equipment, receipts and was totally responsible for any taxes due therefrom.
NKP Muncie posted:Most states, it's based on buyer's location.
True, but would simplify the issue, especially for small sellers, if the tax basis were changed to the seller's location. Realize that may be to the advantage of sellers located in states with no sales tax or lower sales tax rates (making it less likely to happen) and would require an Act of Congress (no pun intended) under its power to regulate interstate commerce.
BigRail posted:So I can still walk in to a store in a "non tax" state and buy tax free right?
The ruling in regard to South Dakota v. Wayfair, Inc et al. has no bearing on walk-in sales.
It was only a few years ago when State tax personnel would suddenly appear at a train show and pass out state tax collection forms (they also acquired the participating vendor list). Things in state Gov. Got tight. Personnel were spread too thin. Vendors got lax. Recently the state required all Venues (fleamarkets, swap meets, train shows, tca meets), to provide a list of vendors for each event. There's revenue to be had by enforcement and so enforcement will be improved. How will they track on line?
Everything on-line is digital, easily tracked and accountable.
bigdodgetrain posted:Mallard4468 posted:justakid posted:Ok, you are right about "new" purchases. But how will you like paying your state say..8% sales tax on that "used" "new in the box. Unopened "
engine you already paid tax on when new. A $1000 sale at say 8% is $80 you gift to that state
If it's a private sale, there's no sales tax involved.
want to bet?
Absolutely. With the exception of sales tax that is collected by the BMV when registering a car, non-business sales between private individuals have never been been subject to sales tax. And never will be, because it's unenforceable.
colorado hirailer posted:Luckily, as most of what l buy on line is old and used, this will have little effect. My first thought about helping local business, was "What local hobby shop?"; My second was, "Which of the five? states that don't collect sales tax is the closest?" Related to the first question is the problem that the local stores stock nothing you need, so obviously don't want your business, and you have to go far afield to get what you want.
Technically your wrong. Tax is collected on what ever you buy, new or old. That's like saying going into a thrift shop and buy something for a $1 you don't have to pay because it's old and used.
Mallard4468 posted:bigdodgetrain posted:Mallard4468 posted:justakid posted:Ok, you are right about "new" purchases. But how will you like paying your state say..8% sales tax on that "used" "new in the box. Unopened "
engine you already paid tax on when new. A $1000 sale at say 8% is $80 you gift to that state
If it's a private sale, there's no sales tax involved.
want to bet?
Absolutely. With the exception of sales tax that is collected by the BMV when registering a car, non-business sales between private individuals have never been been subject to sales tax. And never will be, because it's unenforceable.
South Carolina already ask on the state form how much you bought online, from another source, etc that you didn't pay taxes on. Does not concern them if it's old or new.
enforceable would be very hard to do I agree
justakid posted:Ok, you are right about "new" purchases. But how will you like paying your state say..8% sales tax on that "used" "new in the box. Unopened "
engine you already paid tax on when new. A $1000 sale at say 8% is $80 you gift to that state
Not sure I understand your point. Sales tax is applicable on any qualified sale, used or new. This is like saying how would you like to pay tax on the low miles 2003 Ford F-150, the age or fact it sold once before is irrelevant.
How long before the Feds add a internet sales tax of there own?? 
In Ca Amazon already charges state sales tax as well as many other vendors doing business in Ca.
Mikey
BigRail posted:So I can still walk in to a store in a "non tax" state and buy tax free right?
Yes. But if your home state finds out about it you might have to pay sales tax on it.
feet posted:BigRail posted:So I can still walk in to a store in a "non tax" state and buy tax free right?
Yes. But if your home state finds out about it you might have to pay sales tax on it.
So I.E. if you are shopping at "Just Trains" in Delaware... 
Don't be braggin about your "tax free" online- esp on the forums!
dd40ax posted:I would buy at local train shows as much as I can.
In many states, train show table holders are required to have a tax number and collect tax. No number, no table.
And, as others have posted, sales tax applies to used items as well as new.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:In my opinion, there is only one way to do this. The tax is collected and paid to the SELLER'S state, not the buyer's state. Then there's no dealing with 44 other state's taxes.
It would be as if I walked into Charlie Ro's in Massachusetts and bought trains directly over the counter. Instead he ships them to me, so I pay that too. Minnesota doesn't deserve a penny of that sale.
Someone from Colorado buys something from Minnesota they pay Minnesota tax. This more correctly reflects the state's retail sales.
That argument makes no sense. What if I lived in a state that does not have a sales tax like Delaware. Why would I want to pay a tax to another state. Furthermore, what if I live in a state with a 6% sales tax why would I want to pay tax in NY city which I believe is nearly 9%.
The choice of who I buy from might be determined by the sales tax and would favor sellers in low sales tax states.
This whole thread is second guessing. Nobody knows how exactly the tax will work and how it will be implemented.
Lets just take it easy and see what happens.
Dave
Second guessing? Or experience with the tax man where you are guilty until proven innocent. The place you LIVE in wants what they consider to be THEIR money.
It is legal to avoid, it is illegal to evade.
david1 posted:This whole thread is second guessing. Nobody knows how exactly the tax will work and how it will be implemented.
Lets just take it easy and see what happens.
Dave
Don't worry... There's software out there that will handle the various state taxes.
Heck, when I look at my grocery receipt, I can see that some different types of groceries are taxed at different rates.
There was an article in today's paper that Illinois will start collecting the internet tax October 1, 2018.
Rusty
I agree that this is going to play out as it does. Right now it is kind of chaos, because the states themselves have done nothing in terms of how they are going to enforce this, and also in terms of how they are going to set up to handle a flood of tax id requests and getting their systems to handle a lot of transactions (more for the big boys like Walmart, Amazon and so forth). Are they going to actually agree on a lower limit, or will some state put no floor on the amount of sales before you have to submit tax payment while others will have one? My guess at this point is that states are going to go after the big boys and ignore smaller businesses FWIW, they might require services like Ebay and the like that host business users to collect sales tax as well, the rest is going to end up I suspect either in the courts (if congress refuses to act) or in congress, I doubt the states would do the smart thing and come up with something like a common system that would allow someone to apply for a tax id that covers all the states, they likely want to keep their current system run by sloths (from the movie Zootopia, one of my favorites).
Some observations, FWIW:
A lot of states, like Massachusetts, have use taxes which impose a tax on items bought out-of-state where no sales tax is paid and then brought in to be used in Massachusetts. So if I go to NH to buy a big ticket item, like a new TV and pay no sales tax and bring it back to Massachusetts to use in my home, I am required by law to report that purchase and pay the use tax. My recollection is that Massachusetts has in the past tried to enforce this law around holiday time by stationing unmarked vehicles in the parking lots of stores just over the border in NH like Best Buy and taking plate numbers.
There is a difference between a "private" sale and a "non-business" sale. The term "private" sale implies that it is outside the scope of mainstream brick and mortar retail sales, but is not necessarily a "non-business" sale because the seller could be in the business of regular sales of that particular or similar items. A "non-business" sale implies that it is an occasional sale being conducted by a seller who is not in the business of regularly selling that item. If I sell an item on e-bay it would be a private, non-business sale, but there are plenty of people on e-bay who run businesses on it and there sales would generally be classified as private, but not non-business.
I suspect that any legislation would exempt private, non-business sales both under a certain dollar amount and/or under a certain number of annual sales transactions.
A "non-business" sale implies that it is an occasional sale being conducted by a seller who is not in the business of regularly selling that item.
What does "occasional sale" mean?
If I have a table at a train show once a year, is it any different than someone who holds a garage sale once a year? How about two or three shows?
As I posted earlier, here in NYS one must have a tax number in order to get a table at a show.
All the more reason for the twice yearly York Meet to remain a "Meet"! 
-Greg
WaynePa posted:Big_Boy_4005 posted:In my opinion, there is only one way to do this. The tax is collected and paid to the SELLER'S state, not the buyer's state. Then there's no dealing with 44 other state's taxes.
It would be as if I walked into Charlie Ro's in Massachusetts and bought trains directly over the counter. Instead he ships them to me, so I pay that too. Minnesota doesn't deserve a penny of that sale.
Someone from Colorado buys something from Minnesota they pay Minnesota tax. This more correctly reflects the state's retail sales.
That argument makes no sense. What if I lived in a state that does not have a sales tax like Delaware. Why would I want to pay a tax to another state. Furthermore, what if I live in a state with a 6% sales tax why would I want to pay tax in NY city which I believe is nearly 9%.
The choice of who I buy from might be determined by the sales tax and would favor sellers in low sales tax states.
So by that logic, a person from Delaware could walk into a store in New York, and announce that he is from Delaware and doesn't have to pay sales tax. They'll laugh him right out of there.
Merchants are set up to collect and pay sales tax in the states where they are located. They are not equipped to become the tax agents of their customer's states. This convoluted nonsense needs to stop. Who is going to keep a database of every different taxing entity nationwide, and then where do the merchants send the money collected?
In truth, states may earn a lot more revenue under this simple scheme. Contrary to popular belief, taxes are not a bad thing. I'll be the first to admit that there is government waste, but most of all tax dollars go to pay for important services. You don't get something for nothing.
Those who are worried about trade imbalances between states, shouldn't. It will all work out just fine. If states like CA and NY were able to collect on everything they sold, they would have a lot more revenue, and might consider lowering rates.
In answer to your question, "Why would I want to pay a tax to another state?" Because you want to buy products from there? It's one thing to be a "homer" when cheering for a sports team, but this isn't that case with taxes. It is your choice to buy from anywhere you want. If you really feel that strongly about it, only buy products from your state.
When it comes to trains, I will continue to buy from other states, because Minnesota merchants have nothing I want. If I have to pay another state's sales tax, so be it. If you start shopping for trains based on the sales tax, you'd best quit the hobby.
This ruling is all about online/mail-order sales which have had a free ride at the expense of traditional retailers - nothing more. It's not about garage sales, swap meet sales, personal sales, Soupy Sales, and sailing vessels. That stuff is all covered by existing local and state laws, which may or may not change.
If you don't like the current tax situation, vote for people who will change it. Just be careful what you wish for.
C W Burfle posted:A "non-business" sale implies that it is an occasional sale being conducted by a seller who is not in the business of regularly selling that item.
What does "occasional sale" mean?
If I have a table at a train show once a year, is it any different than someone who holds a garage sale once a year? How about two or three shows?
As I posted earlier, here in NYS one must have a tax number in order to get a table at a show.
IMHO, I wouldn't consider someone who pays money to buy a table at a train show, particularly where admission is being charged, to sell a number of train related items to be either a "private sale" or a "non-business" sale situation. I would classify that person as a vendor (I know - more definitions) and that's probably why a sales tax number is required.
I think that's very different from a homeowner's isolated garage sale. I don't know any homeowner that holds a garage sale every year. They must be buying more stuff than me ! 
As posted previously if you do a bulk business on the internet this will definitely affect you as for me however, a very casual purchaser, it will not have any effect whatsoever. New Jersey has a use tax for things purchased out of state so I end up paying the tax anyway.
david1 posted:This whole thread is second guessing. Nobody knows how exactly the tax will work and how it will be implemented.
Lets just take it easy and see what happens.
Dave
David:
I am with you on this. I don't have the slightest idea how this will affect my online business since I am a micro-small seller. I am waiting to see what the rules are and whether or not my provider sees fit to set up 'auto' tax collection system or not for my shopping cart. If it is left up to me to set up the system to pay tax to all states then I am cooked.
I think Congress will eventually step in since this ruling will not hurt the big guys like amazon who have the tech people employed anyway but it will hit the small businesses really hard down to the train stores if it is they who will need to hire tech people to set up a system to pay tax. Hopefully it is the web service providers who will set up the system so the small guy can continue to offer on line sales.
Joe
GREAT discussion, but I would avoid posting your specific transactions which avoid taxation on such a public forum! "Big Brother" is likely watching! LOL!
Mallard4468 posted:bigdodgetrain posted:Mallard4468 posted:justakid posted:Ok, you are right about "new" purchases. But how will you like paying your state say..8% sales tax on that "used" "new in the box. Unopened "
engine you already paid tax on when new. A $1000 sale at say 8% is $80 you gift to that state
If it's a private sale, there's no sales tax involved.
want to bet?
Absolutely. With the exception of sales tax that is collected by the BMV when registering a car, non-business sales between private individuals have never been been subject to sales tax. And never will be, because it's unenforceable.
you don't live in calif do you?
"even occasional sellers of tangible goods, should register to collect sales or use tax."
https://www.taxes.ca.gov/sales..._use_tax/index.shtml
we had a person around the corner that had a "yard" sale every weekend. state stopped that because they did not pay sales tax on the used crap they were selling.
All internet sales are electronic. Easiest route for a state is to gain access to credit card transactions ( only to ones in their state).
Remember that third parties agreement you acknowledged when you accepted their credit?
Credit companies need only set up portals for states to access purchase info by state.
I'll bet credit companies will be all too happy to oblige and in the process charge you the credit user for the service by upping your interest rate by 1/10 of a %.
