Help with My First Layout

I don't have that complete library in the software that I use. Here's a suggestion: Make the straight on the left at nine o'clock the adjustment piece. Those curves appear as if they won't fit properly. Remove the straight. Connect the curves at 4 o'clock to the passing siding correctly, add the passing section and then play with the nine o'clock straight area for fitment.

Also, note the size of the baseboard. It looks like 10.5' x 6.5'. Odd ball size if you are going to use lumber. Floor would be ok. Too much work and waste of material to use lumber for that size.

I like the idea of a reversing loop but I think you have one. Are you planning to add a second so you can reverse direction both ways?

Since the largest "join" error you can have in RR-Track is .20" and the default setting is much less than that, I don't think you'll have any problems. However, when designing layouts in RR-Track I always try to join curves without errors. So, the suggestion that you join the curve first and then "fit" the rest using the straight sections is a good one IMHO.

My main reason for that is because unlike some brands, MTH offers 3.5", 4.25", 5" and 5.5" track sections so you have a lot of different lengths to choose from. Obviously, you want to avoid too many smaller sections, but if you need them, try to place them between longer sections during construction to achieve the overall length needed. I'm not sure if that really helps conductivity, etc., but it looks better tome and if there is any clickety-clack, it will be spread out more.

BTW, I think that's a nice Christmas layout and if you need to reverse again, you can always back through the loop. Of course, it probably wouldn't take the much to add the 2nd reversing loop, but you'd have to redo the siding.

Thanks for the help everyone. Been looking at sample layouts and thinking about what I would want the train to do so I've reworked my original layout. I like the idea of being able to switch directions on the track as well as the "twice around" concept to give the illusion of having a longer run so now I came up with this. I still get RR-Track telling me one of the pieces is off by about half an inch but it asks me if I want to join them so after the feedback here I'm assuming this works ok.

Any thoughts on this layout? Also with the increased size and switches will I be able to run this with the power supply and remote controller that comes with the MTH RTR kits? IT's a Z500 power supply with a single lockon. I would run the switches via remote switch using track power but totally new to this so open to advice!

Thanks.

netsurfr;

Extra track isn't a big problem at this size layout.

Switches only consume power momentarily when you throw them. They do pull a bit of power for the lantern.

Too many lit passenger cars is the killer. Try not to run more than 3 or 4 lit passenger cars with that transformer..

You can run a half dozen freight car for each lit passenger cars due to the power consumed by the lights.

PS. you can get a Z-1000 brick and controller for $94.95 at my Local Hobby Shop.

One of the reasons why your tracks don't join perfectly is because you're mixing curve sizes (O31 and O42). Normally this isn't a problem, but you are also keeping things too symmetrical in too small a space. The bigger problem though is varying too many short lengths trying to make the joint. I redid it using the same track sections until I got to the end of the straight sections. I ended up using 5" and 5.5" tracks on the lower left and two 3.5" tracks on the upper left with no join errors. I also redid the Figure 8 to use the same sections and got no join errors there too.

I hope you don't mind, but I took it one step further and redid the whole thing using all O31 curves. I'm not sure why you switched to O42 just for the upper curves. Normally you'd want to use larger curves, but if you already have O31's, you might as well keep them the same throughout, so I didn't see any advantage to using any O42's.

Anyway, this allowed me to move the Figure 8 up to make room for a better spur without the "S" curve that results when you add a curve to a turnout. Don't get me wrong, that still works, but adding a 10" straight piece separates the spur and adds space for buildings on both sides of the spur and should result in fewer problems, especially with O31 turnouts.

I don't know if they will load in your version of RR-Track, but I included the rrt files just in case.

I forgot to mention that I also don't think you'll have any problems with the Z500 on that size layout. FWIW, I run a Christmas train with 5 lit passenger cars and 1 turnout on a 6x8 layout using the Z500 without any problems so far. I don't intend to buy any more until I upgrade to the Z4000 next Christmas at the earliest.

NEVER give up on a locomotive! However, even though it will navigate O42's, that doesn't mean you'll be happy with the look, especially since I take it that is a more expensive line of locomotive.

I'm sorry though. I figured the reason might be something like that and I misspoke. I thought you had O31's on the bottom because I just saw the 2 curved sections before the turnout, duh. I also thought I used O31's on the 2nd layout, but I see I also used O42's, so I take back my comments about the curves.

Given what you said though, I reworked the layout to add the siding back in. I used O31's for the siding figuring you just won't be able to run the Milwaukee Road locomotive through it. I swapped a 5" for the 10" on the inner spur to make room and still minimize the "S" curve there. This may take away too much space for buildings, but I prefer operations to buildings, so I thought I'd post it.

The reason you can't read my files is because they are RR-Track 5.0. Unfortunately, 5.0 is a little pricey starting at $70 and going up depending upon how many track libraries, etc., you want. My version was a little over $100, but I'm still deciding on what track I want to use and I wanted to test many of them out and it wasn't that much more than the base version. I do use RealTrax for my Christmas layout, but it's only a 6x8 table in the garage right now. However, after seeing what I've been able to do with your plan, I just might expand it when I move it back to the dining room after the holidays. Late next year I will be beginning a permanent layout spanning 2 spare bedrooms; layout in 1 and hidden yard in part of the other with a tunnel through the wall.

Anyway, if you plan to continue using RealTrax, there is no need to upgrade RR-Track to 5.0 unless you see some features you want and feel they are worth the price. With your size layout though, it doesn't take long to manually reproduce a layout design like the one I posted. I pretty much just decided that I was going to move away from RealTrax for my permanent layout, so I needed more track libraries. I also decided I was going to support MTH as much as possible, so I spent the extra money. I like RR-Track, but there are others, most notably the free SCARM.

One thing to think about though is I don't believe you can run more than 1 locomotive with the Z500 and R-T-R remote that came with it (at least not without power blocks, etc.). Even though I only have a 6x8 layout, I upgraded to the DCS Remote Control Set w/TIU to get access to and control of more functions, particularly locomotive sounds for now. I will add the Z4000 transformer next Christmas because eventually I want to run at least 3 trains simultaneously and that will be iffy with the Z500. I've been told it might handle it if I don't use lighted cars, etc. I may opt for the Z1000 though as I get closer to the final design stage for my layout.

My point is that watching the Milwaukee Road locomotive run around in a 6x10 oval might be interesting when you first get it, but that might only last for a few days. If this will be your layout for the foreseeable future, upgrading the control system, albeit at some serious cost, might be something to think about.

Thanks Dave. I like what you've done here. I really don't want to give up on that Hiawatha/Milwaukee Road locomotive. I'm actually looking at getting an older MTH version of it that has protosound 1 so only runs in conventional mode and from the reading I've been doing it appears the solution for me to run that engine would be to upgrade to DCS Remote w/ TIU and use my Z500 (for now) to run her or my protosound 3 engine. I too like the added sounds/features full blown DCS can provide. The other advantage of the older version of this locomotive (vs. the MTH premium one that's PS3) is that it supposedly only needs O-31 curves so this layout may actually allow me to have the 42's for a better looking effect but if all works out allow me to run the Hiawatha engine through the entire layout keeping it more interesting.

And to think this whole thing started w/ us wanting a train set for our son for a Christmas layout and here I am...

Thanks again! - Jose

Funny that's exactly what happened with us. My son (almost 4) has been asking for a nicer train set and the last 2 years we visited Trainfest here in Milwaukee so after this year we told him we'd get one and after Trainfest 2 weeks ago he picked the MTH Christmas Express RTR and has not stopped using (with me) daily but I am looking at expanding the layout so we can both have more fun. So all my learning about the topic has happened in the last 2 weeks. I'm into remote controlled airplanes & helicopters so I guess it was a matter of time before I got into trains but so happy my son is having such a great time w/ it.

All I have used is MTH so didn't realize there was such a difference between MTH & Lionel but yes when I read how easy it was to control the MTH DCS trains I thought that would be great for my son and so far he's mastered the whole thing. He can startup the engine go forward & reverse, blow horn or whistle and even do the PFA so kudos to MTH on making such as easy to use system even a 3 year old can use.

Heading to the train store this afternoon to inquire about the DCS stuff and some track. Hope I don't come out there w/ too much stuff!

BTW - You say you have a small layout but it sounds like you run multiple cars through it and that it is multi-room. Is that considered small???

My current layout is only a 6x8 oval, but I'm designing a multi-level layout (my Nov 15 post) that will span 2 rooms with a tunnel through the wall. The link shows how far I've gotten with the design and I've got a lot of ideas for enhancement. I just got the okay from The Boss for the basic layout and use of both rooms, so I'm just beginning the design effort. Before that, I was planning a 10x17 garage layout, but that is now on hold. I have a year or so before I can begin construction, so I've got plenty of time to tweak the design.

I'm originally from up near Green Bay (Brillion), so we visit Wisconsin once a year or so. My niece lives in New Berlin and owns the Camp Bow Wow over in Waukesha, so we get down there too. What train store do you frequent in Milwaukee? I might try to stop in next visit.

Wow that's quite the layout design. Will be impressive to see that once done. Good thing you got the OK from the boss too!

We're up in Milwaukee so very close to New Berlin. Nice area. The train store I go to is Somerfelds in Butler, WI (about 10 minutes north from Milwaukee). Great place and all they do is trains. Carry both Lionel & MTH.

Summerfield has been on my list for a year or so, but we didn't have time during a short visit to Brillion in September. Next visit we'll have plenty of time, so I should be able to stop in.

As far as the layout goes, the design is far from finished. My first attempt was to commandeer the 13x21 bedroom, but I didn't like dealing with the 2 doors, couldn't include craft space, etc., so that got nixed. Then I thought about a garage layout, but someone posted a thread that turned a light on. So, I put that plan together, ran it by my wife and that became the new plans. The main room is still not big enough (never is), but not having to include a yard really helps. I also don't like the O31 curves, but might have to settle for them. I don't intend to buy any engine that won't navigate them, so it's just a concern about appearance going around curves. My thinking there is to hide those with scenery, tunnels, backdrops, etc.

It looks like you guys are working out a nice layout.

I will caution you though, You are going to need some access holes in the middle to reach everything unless you are tall with long arms.

And DAVE, You have a good point about being able rto run on O-31 curves but I'll warn you, a number of MTH engines that will run on them look awful when doing so.

I'm far happier with my Imperial RailKing Big Boy on O-72.

The Big Boy cab swings 4" out on an O-31 curve. It eats a lot of Scenery.

Russell,

Good point! Probably should have asked where this layout will be going, but I just jumped right in to help tweak what he posted. I guess I'm assuming a basement with access all around, but if that's not the case, then he'll definitely need to consider an access hatch or 2. Guess we'll see how he responds and go from there.

As far as O31 goes, I've already cautioned him about appearance even if his locomotives will navigate the O31 curves, or even the O42 curves. I probably could have been more forceful, but while I'm fully aware of the appearance issues, even with my little 4-6-0, I'm not going to let that force me to compromise on (my idea of) operation. Given the space I have, my design process is to see what I can "pack" in using O31 and then modify things.

I don't know if you've seen my latest design effort after my wife said I could have one bedroom and part of another. I'm now in the process of changing the bottom level of the new layout design to an around-the-room style with a lift-out bridge so I can have larger curves. I'd then limit the smaller curves to the 2nd/3rd levels. I don't know if I'll get O72's, but I'll give it a try and see how it works out for what I want to do with my trains.

On a personal note, if I have to choose between a simple oval with O72 curves to run a Big Boy in a circle around a small room or a more robust layout with O31 curves and reversing loops for a 4-6-0, I'm afraid I'll have to choose the latter and deal with the limitations. I've mentioned several times that my largest locomotive will be a 2-8-2, but if I ever get the urge to buy something bigger, I will simply join the Paradise & Pacific RR club and run it on the club layout over at the McCormick-Stillman RR Park in Scottsdale. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

BTW. How is the barn coming along? I hope you get the insulation in before it gets too cold up there.

Jose,

I scaled back my Christmas layout plans too once I saw how expensive turnouts were. Here are a couple of options. The first sticks with the O42 oval and needs 4 turnouts. The 2nd cheats with some O31 curves, but needs only 2 turnouts and they are close enough together to switch manually. The 3rd uses all O42 curves, but becomes a simple loop-to-loop.

Also, be advised the RealTrax turnouts have an anti-derail function and will switch themselves coming out of the loop.

Wow Dave those are really cool looking layouts. So much more creative than the basic loop I tend to default to. I'll recreate in my RR software and play with it.

I did not know about that feature w/ the turnouts that's great news and makes things easier. So does that mean that regardless of how the switch is left it will change itself depending on where the train is coming from? Does that only work in certain direction or both ways?

Also - Is it easy to set up a remote switch closer to where my son & I would be running the trains from for some of those turnouts that are far away?

Thanks so much for the help!

Sort of. In the case of my 3rd example, it doesn't matter what position either turnout is in because the train will take whatever route is set. When is comes out of the loop. it will switch the turnout. The next time around, it will take the opposite route and switch it again coming out of the loop. This means you can leave a train run unattended if you want and it will keep alternating the route it takes through each loop. Once you get the 3rd example entered, use the Simulation option to run a train and don't switch any turnouts manually. Just watch how they operate as the train goes through the circuit a few times. This is how the anti-derail turnouts work, a great feature.

I forgot that the version of RR-Track that comes with the R-T-R sets doesn't have the simulation option, another reason I upgraded. Anyway, I got my upgrade from their website here. I think I mentioned earlier that they start at around $70 and go up depending on what libraries you want. I got the version that was $109 plus tax because it includes all the O-Gauge track libraries (RealTrax, ScaleTrax, Atlas, GarGraves, Ross, etc.) as well as accessories (Lionel Postwar/Modern and RailKing). I really only wanted ScaleTrax at the time, but now I'm thinking I might switch to Atlas or GarGraves/Ross. Even though your track might "join", the simulation will show where it really doesn't. I don't know how accurate the simulation is though when it comes to things lining up. All I know is I've had tracks all joined and the simulation failed.

You'd better watch out though because this hobby can get addictive. I just figured it was worth another $30 to get all the libraries, but $100 is nothing to sneeze at, especially when SCARM is free. However, if you read some of my other posts, you'll see that I've used RR-track to redesign my backyard in preparation for an extensive remodel using the objects and scenery elements. I've also used it to plan adding shelves to a decorative Indian ladder my wife wants to lean against the wall.

Ok that simulation feature alone makes upgrading worth it so I bought it last night and should receive it next week. I'll be able to visualize how this layout will run. I ordered the MTH specific edition since that's what I currently have.

You're right this is getting expensive QUICKLY. Getting ready to order the DCS Control System and the list is getting longer...

Heh, You got bit by the Train Bug, It is quite expensive.

The trick is to limit yourself somehow, Perhaps pick a particular railroad and stick with it. I'm doing that! well, mostly...  

And Yes, My first Christmas layout ran like Dave's examples above, Reversing loops on both ends of a short common line. Mine wasn't that long, just ran behind the tree and looped on both sides.

The Train will keep right on looping, just switches direction through the loop each time. Remember to keep the train shorter than the loop. Otherwise you will run into the tail of the train !

Dave, I was unaware of the Simulation, is it in Ver 4? I have V4 with a bunch of libraries.

Perhaps I should upgrade as well.

No insulation in the barn yet, getting over the costs involved with moving first. And it's already really cold in there!

Right now I have an O-31 loop on a couple folding tables in my Den.

I put the Christmas train on it. Runs OK but close to the edge in a couple places.

I tried my Phantom with the lit cars but it popped the breaker on the Z-1000 brick.

Tonight I'm going to try pulling the Christmas train with the Phantom engine to see if it's the lighted cars or the engine pulling too much current. Hope it's the cars, I can swap in led's there, Rebuilding the motor is a lot more trouble.

Russell,

I got back into railroading last year about this time, so the only versions of RR-Track I've used are the limited one that came with the 2012 Christmas train and then I upgraded to v5.0 when I saw how limited it was. I upgraded mostly to get the ScaleTrax library, but decided to get the version with the other libraries as well and I'm glad I did so I can play with other track, especially curve sizes and turnouts.

Anyway, version 5 has Plan view, Component View, Terrain View, 3D View and Simulation View along the top of each layout display, so if version 4 doesn't have that, then I guess the option was added with v5. I played with simulation in XTrackCAD and I missed it. It's actually quite fun building elaborate designs and just running a train through them. Unfortunately, it only runs a single train at a time, but you can have multiple trains on the tracks, move them to sidings, etc., to see how the design works. You can also save various consists to test train length, etc. I don't think it helps with grades. To me it's an indispensable tool and worth the price of admission.

I've been bit by the bug for sure. I just went to the train store today and they just got in the train set I've been lusting after since I started into this hobby but I'm telling myself I have to skip on it. It's the Lionel Hiawatha modeled after the original 1935 Hiawatha which at the time was the fastest streamliner in the world and just looks awesome. It was last made by Lionel in 2006 and was a premium reproduction and hard to find. It's this one

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-38094&expandBranch=0&Keywords=&CategoryID=485&RailLineID=&CatalogId=

Along with all 7 aluminum high detailed cars BUT they want $1,800 because it's in like new condition. It requires O-54 so all I could do is create a basic loop so I figured that would get boring and it's not MTH DCS so I've basically told myself that I should wait to see if MTH makes this version of it down the road but man is it tempting!

Anyhow I hate to keep switching around on layouts but have come up with another one that I would love your opinions on. Basically I am not trying to create a loop around the tree (in the upper left corner of the layout) as well as a way to switch directions and a sideline to bring the train into the "station" and have a bit more to do in the layout than just looping around so this is what I came up with. It uses O-42 to allow me to buy larger engine/passenger cars down the road and still fit in the Christmas area on the floor. BTW - The rectangle you see here is a piece of furniture that will stay there because the train actually fits under it so it's kind of like a tunnel and both my son & I like that so I tried to incorporate a layout that would go through it and also come out the front of it as well.

Any thoughts? I ordered the full version of RR Track so I can use the simulation so that will help but won't have that till next week I imagine.

Also I've been reading around and am getting second thoughts about MTH RealTrax because I'm finding people saying they have problems with it and specifically their switches. Any experience by either of you w/ Realtrax that you could share?

Thanks!

I'm relatively happy with my RealTrax, but then the only track I have to compare it to is the old Lionel stuff from my childhood. My layout has been taken apart and put back together several times without any problems. I have little experience with my lone turnout, but I do know from personal experience that you have to be careful not to let the rails touch the frog. Other than that, it works fine when I use it.

I will say that posts here do seem to indicate a preference for FasTrack, but if you want combo track with roadbed, I think those are the only choices. I think too that there are more places to buy FasTrack, so it might be cheaper. There does seem to be a bias against MTH here, at least when it comes to track, but then there are a lot of folks here who "grew up" with model railroading long before MTH came along. I myself am rethinking my desire to use ScaleTrax on my permanent layout, partly now because of the limited curve offerings. They say it takes more care to install, but it sure looks good.

When it comes to switches though, everyone gets compared to Ross. And you really need to read and understand any complaints. For everyone who complains, you'll find someone happy with that same track/switch. Then too, a lot of folks judge based on cost and that just adds to the confusion. Personally, I see a lot of folks happy with a lot of different brands, so my decision is going to be based on the usual factor, COST. I was all set to go with ScaleTrax until I visited the club layout in Scottsdale done with Atlas. My conclusion is that they all look good and operate well, it's all in the installation.

As far as the design, never apologize for trying something different until you get something you'll be happy with. The worst that can happen is no one comments.

That said, I'm curious. You said you aren't trying to make a loop for the Christmas tree. If that's not a typo, then I don't see what the circle in the upper left is for. It's not a reversing loop, it's just a circle. The train goes in, goes around and comes out going in the same direction. While I guess it does add some variety, to me it just adds the cost of 2 turnouts and 10 O42 curves.

IMHO you'd be better off eliminating the circle and putting those switches to better use by connecting the spur to the right side so it becomes a siding again. That way you can go in and out in either direction instead of having to back in or out. You already have to back through the reversing loop to reverse back, so you already have that action. I forget how long it took me to get my v5 upgrade, but when you do, you'll be able to "play" to see if the design works the way you want it to. And therein lies the beauty of model railroading, it's your railroad, so you decide what it looks like and how it operates.

Dave thanks for the feedback on Realtrax. I had to remind myself that people w/ positive experience w/ a product typically don't post about it on forums and knowing there are a ton of people out there running realtrax w/o issues puts things into perspective.

As for the track... It was a typo, I do want to go around the tree & do something interesting w/ the rest of the layout including changing directions but get your point of having to reverse too much. I guess I was thinking reversing the train to either switch directions or get out of the "station" in my latest layout would be fun but perhaps not. I like your 2nd design because it sort of goes around the tree & gives the appearance of switching directions so let me recreate that one & see how it feels.

Thanks!

Dave I'm having a problem recreating your layouts without knowing the curves & turnouts you used. Can you post the RTR files since I just got an email indicating my full version (v5) shipped out via priority mail today and should be here in 3 days? I'm guessing this new version will allow me to open your files. Thanks!

Ok by trial & error I was able to come close to your #2 layout. I went w/ all 31 curves. What I like about this layout is that in terms of linear feet it's about 5 feet longer in track than my last attempt so that expands the train travel which is a good thing. Secondly since it goes all the way to the right, turns and comes back and up and behind the tree (upper left) and back to the right for another turn it gives the appearance of switching directions and still has nice long straights where the entire train will fit and make a stop at the station. It also has 2 switches keeping cost & complexity down.

Now if I understand the switches correctly this should be an "automatic" loop where we wouldn't have to continually need to change the switches for the train to go around w/o derailing right?

Yes, as long as you use properly working non-derailing switches like the original 022 for O Gauge.  Using them with fixed voltage will help the reliability.

Here are the RR-Track files I have left for your space. Let me know if you need anything else.

As far as switches go, yes, they should automatically switch. My lone switch is an O31 RH, p/n 40-1004, and it switches as soon as the locomotive hits it. AFAIK, all RealTrax switches work this way whereas if you change to a different brand, you need to make sure you get switches what the anti-derail feature.

Rob/Dave -

Thanks. Ok I settled on the layout & ordered the pieces along w/ the DCS Remote & TIU. Here's the layout. Basically a copy of your #2 layout Dave but all using O-31 and I added a 30" bridge in one of the runs for scenery. I like this layout a lot so looking forward to getting it all put together for the Holidays.

Thanks for the help!

Didn't realize you were doing MTH track.  It looks like you're all set.

I hope you'll post some photos when it's all done and let us know how it works. If you really get the bug and eventually build a permanent layout, you can always use what you are buying now for a Christmas layout, so your investment won't be for naught. And, if you find you want more action in the future, you can always add some switches to create a couple of spurs; one behind the station and/or one in front of the sofa.

BTW, I can't believe you've followed the same route I did, a simple R-T-R set and then more track and the upgraded remote/TIU. And you've now got enough invested that you won't be able to stop there.

I should have remembered this thread. It's a great example of what you can fit in a small space with larger curves. I never got around to converting this to RealTrax to see how it would come out. I offer it just for ideas since you originally had a figure 8.

I'll certainly post picture/video once is all up and running. I'll have a lot to learn about DCS, wiring, etc... but looking forward to the finished product. This will stay up through the holidays but unfortunately we really don't have a spare room for a permanent layout but I'm sure this will grow! I also want to add a winter/north pole scenery look to the layout so should be fun.

Dave were you applying power with your basic track when you moved over to the DCS/TIU system? All I have is the Z500 (50W) power brick that came w/ my RTR set and I see is one of the approved power supplies for the DCS/TIU but now that my track is about 43 linear feet and will have 2 switches & perhaps some light houses wondering if I need a more powerful PS or an additional to make this work.