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JC642 posted:
PJB posted:

Joe - I hear you. But if what you say is true, no one would be placing BTO or preorders for any of this stuff.  Right?  I mean why bother?  The glut of secondary market stuff is ever-present.  So if everyone can buy similar items for a fraction of new item cost, there would be almost no need to ever even consider buying anything new.  I mean that is your point taken to its logical conclusion.  And that can't explain why people will and do pay big bucks to a dealer for a brand new item when it arrives from the manufacturer but these same people are unwilling to buy that exact same new product months later from a secondary source at a fraction of the original cost.  

Peter

 I didn't say the hobby is dead, I implied the market has had a significant and noticeable drop in participation from its high water mark a decade ago.  As an example, this month issue of a popular toy train magazine received yesterday speaks volumes as it felt more like a pamphlet.

Bottom line, It is possible the market has hopefully stabilized at this lower participation level.  But, what you speak of, higher MSRP's brought about by lower volume and reduced secondary market interest which increases depreciation.  All indications of distress.   Its pretty simple to figure out the health of the hobby when activity in a once viable secondary market does not match production. 
joe

 

I do think a good portion of the reduction in print advertising such as that magazine you mention is due to where you are right now: the Internet. At best, all a train dealer needs to do in the few model railroading magazines is run a small ad directing customers to their website where they can check offerings and place their order. 

I think many have posted some great responses to this thread.  At the end of the day, the vast majority of us are not willing to pay over 50%-70% of MSRP for an item that's newish, a 2014 "1NIB (new in box)", or "slightly used".  The products of the last 15 years or so have a lot of electronics packed in them so have a higher chance of failure.  You couple that with no warranty, pricey replacement parts and borderline poor customer service, well, now you have a disconnect between what people think something is worth on the secondary market vs. what people will for something on the secondary market.   

I'd hate to break it to some of you, but these are toys.  Whether you'd like to admit it or not, they are toys.  Really awesome toys, but still toys.  Why would someone pay 80% to 90% of MSRP of something that's 2 years old?  It doesn't make any sense.

What we're seeing now with the secondary market will only get worse as more and more boomers enter retirement and quit buying O scale trains (new and used).  There's just not enough younger people joining the hobby to replace those that are leaving it.  All the manufacturers have failed to address this issue over the last 10 years or so and have essentially doomed the hobby in the long run. 

 

Mallard4468 posted:
...

As for the other observations, why would someone pay more than +/- 60 or 70% of the original street price for something without a warranty and about which you don't know the history?  ...

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

...

I'd hate to break it to some of you, but these are toys.  Whether you'd like to admit it or not, they are toys.  Really awesome toys, but still toys.  Why would someone pay 80% to 90% of MSRP of something that's 2 years old?  It doesn't make any sense.

...

Sounds like some of you guys are angling to drive prices down on the die-cast ES44's!  Dream on, people!!!    They still have a few years of premium prices left in them until Lionel introduces something that REALLY obsoletes them, and I just don't see that happening anytime soon.   Time to take that poker hand elsewhere. 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

I buy from my LHS and pay MSRP when new items are released. I do this because they are there for me when I have a problem, provide good repair service and are nice people.  I like to support local merchants when possible as they contribute to my community in many ways. 

It costs me more than going elsewhere and means I can buy fewer train items over time, but there are value-added benefits to consider when you shop. Just saying...

Dave Warburton posted:

I buy from my LHS and pay MSRP when new items are released. I do this because they are there for me when I have a problem, provide good repair service and are nice people.  I like to support local merchants when possible as they contribute to my community in many ways. 

It costs me more than going elsewhere and means I can buy fewer train items over time, but there are value-added benefits to consider when you shop. Just saying...

Dave, I completely agree with the premise of your statement.  Unfortunately for many of us in the South (Dallas area for me) that's just simply not an option.  There are unfortunately no LHS in my area that specialize in O scale; unless you count HobbyTown, which I don't because they carry like 2 engines and 8 pieces of rolling stock. 

Ps.. David, you caught on to my master plan!

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

I think many have posted some great responses to this thread.  At the end of the day, the vast majority of us are not willing to pay over 50%-70% of MSRP for an item that's newish, a 2014 "1NIB (new in box)", or "slightly used".  The products of the last 15 years or so have a lot of electronics packed in them so have a higher chance of failure.  You couple that with no warranty, pricey replacement parts and borderline poor customer service, well, now you have a disconnect between what people think something is worth on the secondary market vs. what people will for something on the secondary market.   

I'd hate to break it to some of you, but these are toys.  Whether you'd like to admit it or not, they are toys.  Really awesome toys, but still toys.  Why would someone pay 80% to 90% of MSRP of something that's 2 years old?  It doesn't make any sense.

What we're seeing now with the secondary market will only get worse as more and more boomers enter retirement and quit buying O scale trains (new and used).  There's just not enough younger people joining the hobby to replace those that are leaving it.  All the manufacturers have failed to address this issue over the last 10 years or so and have essentially doomed the hobby in the long run. 

 

I don't think it is anyone's fault. Kids simply have no interest in trains anymore. What can they do? I still think we have many years left so no worries.

 

 

I buy from my LHS and pay MSRP when new items are released. I do this because they are there for me when I have a problem, provide good repair service and are nice people.  I like to support local merchants when possible as they contribute to my community in many ways. 

It costs me more than going elsewhere and means I can buy fewer train items over time, but there are value-added benefits to consider when you shop. Just saying...

CSWalter, we as consumers can easily nod our heads and agree with your statement.  But ultimately, it's the manufacturers that should be worried.  The "kids have no interest" statement doesn't apply in my opinion.  Kids haven't been the primary O gauge customer since the 1950's or maybe 1960's.  The manufacturer's never adjusted their marketing efforts to try to bring in younger customers.

Trust me, there is a huge customer base out there if the manufacturer's are willing to cater towards their wants/needs/desires.  All of my friends, siblings and family members that are between 20 to 40 think my shelf layout is the coolest thing they've ever seen.  They've never even heard of O gauge.

Who's fault is that?

Last edited by TrainGuyMcGee
cswalter posted:
Rocky Mountaineer posted:

I suppose it's possible that there will always be a segment of folks who are so enamored with "being the first to own something", that they'll spend whatever market premiums are in play to grab something new at their LHS or pre-order it based on the catalog image/description.  Just comes with the territory, and that's what the importers are counting on.

I've always been puzzled as well to watch enthusiasts literally trip over themselves to buy something the day the LHS receives it, but then these same folks will dicker over $5 and free shipping for the same item listed on the for-sale forum as if the seller is a fool.   

I guess the glut of toy trains on the market has finally gotten to the best of us in one degree or another.  Just look at the negative/cynical attitudes over on the thread talking about an estate sale out west.  And then look at how slow items are moving on the forum's for-sale boards recently.  Then again, perhaps everyone's tapped out with mega-$$$$ pre-orders and they're saving their mad-money piggybank for York!   

David

I don't know why people even bother with the buy sell forum now. Nothing seems to sell,only if you really cut the prices down really LOW!

Ebay is the way to go.

HOLD ON HERE:  Have used the buyt/sell forum with good results.,  Seller was happy and buyer (me) was happy - worked evewrything out.  It is a great option for forum members!

I would never pay more than 60 to 70 percent of MSRP for a previously owned loco. For example, if the original waranteed purchaser fries a DCDS-J motor driver board, Lionel pays. If I fry the same board in a second hand train, it's $109.95 + $10.00 shipping = $119.95.  And I am someone who can repair his own trains. For most people, that same board failure would cost about $175 to repair with labor included. That's good enough reason for a discount, particularly with the frequency of PCB failures these days.

Last edited by GregR
TrainGuyMcGee posted:

Trust me, there is a huge customer base out there if the manufacturer's are willing to cater towards their wants/needs/desires.  All of my friends, siblings and family members that are between 20 to 40 think my shelf layout is the coolest thing they've ever seen.  They've never even heard of O gauge.

Who's fault is that?

 

It wasn't that long ago when Lionel set out on an ambitious advertising &, expansion plan that included a distribution warehouse in Pennsylvania, pop up stores and a showroom in NYC..    That idea ended quickly with a consolodation of assets to save the company.
joe

 

Last edited by JC642

Dan,

"...a Vision locomotive or a GGD passenger set, or similar. My understanding is that the production run of many of these higher end items is low to incredibly low. And, technically,, this actually makes these low run items quite rare in the marketplace.  And yet much of this stuff doesn't move even when fire-sale priced.  I'm trying to understand why ..."

 

To help you understand, Dan, it's a relative matter of supply and demand. I can't see any manufacturer turning down would-be buyers for a BTO product. My perspective for any item that had a low run item was because not many folks pre-ordered it. It was low run number because of customer demand and not a manufacturer limiting its production to deliberately make it a "rare" item. An item being rare does not make it valuable. The force which drives resale price is demand vs. supply.

If there's a very limited number of an item available but an even smaller number of those who want it then technically it's glutting the resale market because supply exceeds demand for it but whereas an item might have been produced in higher numbers, if the number of people wanting it is even greater then it's considered to be in short supply and fetches a high resale value because demand exceeds supply.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

"...I've always been puzzled as well to watch enthusiasts literally trip over themselves to buy something the day the LHS receives it...."  

David

There will always be folks like that, David, with the mentality that the "newest" is synonymous with the best and will trip all over themselves to be the first to get  a new item. A prime example is those Apple fans (atics) who camp outside Apple stores to get the first release of an Apple product.

I buy my trains as an Investment, just not a FINANCIAL INVESTMENT, for ME, the ROI is in my MENTAL HEALTH, not a Monetary Return.

 There are those that would Question my Mental Health though, and wether the Trains are the CAUSE, or just a SYMPTOM of my Questionable Mental Health. 

  There is no doubt that while Normally trains are Theraputic, there are times when they can have a Negative effect on my Mental Health/Attitude/Mood, but on average they have been a positive.

Doug

ogaugeguy posted:
Rocky Mountaineer posted:

"...I've always been puzzled as well to watch enthusiasts literally trip over themselves to buy something the day the LHS receives it...."  

David

There will always be folks like that, David, with the mentality that the "newest" is synonymous with the best and will trip all over themselves to be the first to get  a new item. A prime example is those Apple fans (atics) who camp outside Apple stores to get the first release of an Apple product.

Agreed, and I don't doubt that one bit.  But just to be clear, that's not what I found puzzling.  My sense of bewilderment came with the part of the quote that you didn't excerpt... Namely those SAME folks are sometimes the very ones who will love to dicker/haggle over prices and free shipping when buying here on the forum.    Just another one of life's little ironies I guess.  

Sometimes, you just gotta let it go, 'cause there's no rhyme or reason to it.  

David

threads like this one speaks volumes on the way people feel a need to justify what they do.  i'm of the school that if it doesn't fit on the layout, get rid of it.  i also run conventional so i don't spend a lot on an engine either.    it's not a financial reason to buy lower end engines, for me, it's more practical.  i keep changing my mind.  i work on a layout with a certain idea and when i get boared, i tear it up and sell it.  it's a hobby and for fun....no real value other than it's a great way to occupy your time and mind...it's a mental thing.  i find it hard to understand why people feel the need to accumulate, but hey, it's not my money being wasted.  it is, in a sense wasted, when the value doesn't remain, it never sees a layout, or it's not enjoyed....mainly never seeing a layout.  how many 20+ year old train cars have you bought in the box that have never been ran?  heck of an investment....

"Value?" What the heck is that?

As a boy I had the Lionel CP2373 set. A decade or so ago I was utterly astonished at what this thing was going for on ebay! Thousands and thousands of dollars! I thought it was a crummy model even when it was new. No porthole lenses! How cheap was that!  No handrails other than moulded in. By today's standards, "junk!"

About 10 years ago I visited a train store in Jersey. They had an A-A 2373 set (no cars). I forget the exact price but, again, several thousands of dollars! The fellow with me said "it's an error!" I knew better.

Even as a boy who had this set, I knew it could not hold a candle to today's trains. I had no desire to "re-possess" what I had in childhood.

But, about 10 years ago, it seems there were people who valued these very toy-like PW trains highly.

I don't know what the going rate is for a Lionel CP2373 is now. A hundred bucks maybe?

Never trust "value." It is ephemeral.

went to a show on Sunday... well attended but also very interesting...Fundimensions era stuff price for almost nothing but nothing was selling ... pre-war O and Standard gauge stuff priced the way it was,  20 years ago...  not selling...   post war stuff priced the way it was,  20 years ago... I guess the prices are actually cheaper because the dollar's value is much less than it used to be...  in any event, not many sales... I   purchased several lock-ons at a good price, (cheap)! [one fellow had a used Ross double cross-over priced at $500, I would like one, but not $500 worth of desire!]  so much for "value"...  does anyone want to buy a slightly used pet rock?  there are a bunch of them in my driveway...    ha ha

chinatrain99 posted:

i find it hard to understand why people feel the need to accumulate, but hey, it's not my money being wasted.  it is, in a sense wasted, when the value doesn't remain, it never sees a layout, or it's not enjoyed....mainly never seeing a layout. 

Some people derive the most satisfaction from the hunt - the acquisition phase, somewhat like hunting wild game or fishing.  Which hunters or fisherman set out primarily for the experience of gutting or eating their prey?  

Another perspective, is money spent on an ocean cruise, snow skiing or a Disney vacation wasted?  It's not practical, but many people apparently derive satisfaction from the experiences.  

What, me worry?

i find it hard to understand why people feel the need to accumulate, but hey, it's not my money being wasted.  it is, in a sense wasted, when the value doesn't remain, it never sees a layout, or it's not enjoyed....mainly never seeing a layout. 

Most people have trouble understanding why an adult would spend time and money building a model railroad. Period.

C W Burfle posted:

i find it hard to understand why people feel the need to accumulate, but hey, it's not my money being wasted.  it is, in a sense wasted, when the value doesn't remain, it never sees a layout, or it's not enjoyed....mainly never seeing a layout. 

Most people have trouble understanding why an adult would spend time and money building a model railroad. Period.

Unfortunate, but TRUE.

Doug

JC642 posted:
TrainGuyMcGee posted:

Trust me, there is a huge customer base out there if the manufacturer's are willing to cater towards their wants/needs/desires.  All of my friends, siblings and family members that are between 20 to 40 think my shelf layout is the coolest thing they've ever seen.  They've never even heard of O gauge.

Who's fault is that?

 

It wasn't that long ago when Lionel set out on an ambitious advertising &, expansion plan that included a distribution warehouse in Pennsylvania, pop up stores and a showroom in NYC..    That idea ended quickly with a consolodation of assets to save the company.
joe

 

How long ago was this?  And to what audience were they catering?  Also, you're essentially saying that ok, that didn't work so they should throw in the towel on trying to bring in new customers.  Not a valid idea for a business model.

Maybe Lionel (I use them as they have the most to lose) could hire a marketing specialist?  And I don't mean someone that goes to the 4 or 5 largest LHS once a year (yes, I watch the youtube vids).  I mean an actual modern day market specialist that knows how to utilize the modern media platforms;  ie: facebook, twitter, instagram and on and on. 

But I digress, this isn't the proper thread for this.  Moderator, please delete my random bumblings.... 

TrainGuyMcGee posted:
JC642 posted:
TrainGuyMcGee posted:

Trust me, there is a huge customer base out there if the manufacturer's are willing to cater towards their wants/needs/desires.  All of my friends, siblings and family members that are between 20 to 40 think my shelf layout is the coolest thing they've ever seen.  They've never even heard of O gauge.

Who's fault is that?

 

It wasn't that long ago when Lionel set out on an ambitious advertising &, expansion plan that included a distribution warehouse in Pennsylvania, pop up stores and a showroom in NYC..    That idea ended quickly with a consolodation of assets to save the company.
joe

 

How long ago was this?  And to what audience were they catering?  Also, you're essentially saying that ok, that didn't work so they should throw in the towel on trying to bring in new customers.  Not a valid idea for a business model.

Maybe Lionel (I use them as they have the most to lose) could hire a marketing specialist?  And I don't mean someone that goes to the 4 or 5 largest LHS once a year (yes, I watch the youtube vids).  I mean an actual modern day market specialist that knows how to utilize the modern media platforms;  ie: facebook, twitter, instagram and on and on. 

But I digress, this isn't the proper thread for this.  Moderator, please delete my random bumblings.... 

J Calabrese was marketing Lionel during the holidays years back, 2009? even had a store for a month across from Radio music hall. Cost was out of this world I am sure. But he was trying. Lionel was on the Today show several times for a few years during the holidays. Can search for it on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eajuh8gFk70

 

Products like the Vision 700E scale Hudson and the Ethanol tankers with sound stay particularly high is that there's actually not that many around.

When Lionel announced both of these products, there wasn't much hype in the preorder stage, and as a result Lionel made them in rather restricted numbers. Of course, when these products were actually released, everyone saw how incredible they were, that they ate them up like frenzied sharks.

I think after a huge 'high' in excitement between 2007-2014 (at least in my opinion), customers had drank way too much of the Kool-Aid, and, as David and others have mentioned, wanted to be the first to own the next cool thing. Of course, after 2014 (ironically after the controversial BTO policy came into effect) with the awesomeness of the Vision Big Boy and the new Polar Express, people the next year ordered a lot more product that just didn't have quite the OOMPH factor that was previously done - the Vision reefers and the FEF-3's come to mind. Coupled with the fact that quality control took quite a noticeable (at least if you read the forum) nosedive, and all that equals a market with more product than customers, whom the latter are dubious of the reliability. Some do turn out hot like the 2-8-0's, but a lot don't. It's a lose-lose for everyone.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:
Sounds like some of you guys are angling to drive prices down on the die-cast ES44's!  Dream on, people!!!    They still have a few years of premium prices left in them until Lionel introduces something that REALLY obsoletes them, and I just don't see that happening anytime soon.   Time to take that poker hand elsewhere. 

Drat, I thought no one else noticed!

Last edited by Santa Fe 3751
Mikado 4501 posted:

Products like the Vision 700E scale Hudson and the Ethanol tankers with sound stay particularly high is that there's actually not that many around.

When Lionel announced both of these products, there wasn't much hype in the preorder stage, and as a result Lionel made them in rather restricted numbers. Of course, when these products were actually released, everyone saw how incredible they were, that they ate them up like frenzied sharks.

I think after a huge 'high' in excitement between 2007-2014 (at least in my opinion), customers had drank way too much of the Kool-Aid, and, as David and others have mentioned, wanted to be the first to own the next cool thing.

Yes. I call this, "The Legacy Effect."

 Of course, after 2014 (ironically after the controversial BTO policy came into effect) with the awesomeness of the Vision Big Boy and the new Polar Express, people the next year ordered a lot more product that just didn't have quite the OOMPH factor that was previously done - the Vision reefers and the FEF-3's come to mind.

Yea. I thought my vision reefers would have more features like my vision stock car.

Coupled with the fact that quality control took quite a noticeable (at least if you read the forum) nosedive, and all that equals a market with more product than customers, whom the latter are dubious of the reliability. Some do turn out hot like the 2-8-0's, but a lot don't. It's a lose-lose for everyone.

The new F40PHs and the S2 electrics will be "Hot."

 

A few years ago this article appeared in a D.C. newspaper.  I thought it was a pretty good perspective on the 'value' of hobbies in our lives.....the NON-financial aspects, if you will.

 

Career Coach: The value of hobbies

By Joyce E. A. Russell May 5, 2013

Recently I asked an executive I was coaching, “What hobbies do you have?” He paused, looked at me blankly, and then replied, “Actually, I don’t really have any,” followed by another long pause. As he reflected on this, it seemed to suddenly strike him that his life was way out of balance. He was living and breathing his work, which was his own company. The little free time he had, outside of his business, was spent driving his kids to their various activities and watching them play sports and take music lessons. While he loved spending time with his kids, he felt that something was missing in his life. He also reported that he often felt tense, stressed and was increasingly having difficulty controlling his temper.

Many of us can relate to this lifestyle. We have long given up on having any personal time in order to devote our energies to our work or families. But rarely do we give ourselves time for our own activities. Yet finding time for ourselves is key to our own sanity. It can actually improve all the other aspects of our lives. Having a hobby may be even more important to people who lead very full and busy lives.

Defining a hobby. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines a hobby as a pursuit outside of one’s regular occupation, engaged in especially for relaxation. It’s not something you “have to do,” but rather something you “want to do”— because you love to do it. As a result, a hobby can take many forms, be it stamp collecting, gardening, woodworking, playing tennis or even traveling.

Research has shown that people who have hobbies are generally healthier, and have a lower risk of depression and dementia. Many executives that I have coached say a sport or physical fitness routine as a hobby keeps their blood pressure down, enables them to manage their anger and daily frustrations, and puts them in a much better frame of mind. Consequently, this impacts their quality of life, work and family time. Michael Brickey, author of “Defy Aging,” says that an ideal hobby would be one that serves three purposes: a diversion (escape from daily life), a passion (engage in something you love) and a creation of a sense of purpose.

Benefits. Scheduling time for a hobby in our lives (tennis league every Monday night or a weekend bridge tournament) enables us to take a break with “permission.” Since we have signed up, we feel we should show up and we are “forced” to take a break. Some people need to structure their hobbies into their daily lives, otherwise they would feel too guilty to take a break from work. Many hobbies also provide a social outlet for us if we join teams or interact with others (a sewing group, a chorus). These social interactions can provide a degree of social support we may need. Hobbies can also bring pleasure to our life. I have talked to many executives who reported the sheer joy they got from traveling to new places or taking a cooking class. Hobbies provide an outlet from daily stressors that can keep us from getting burned out in our jobs. They also provide numerous health benefits from lower blood pressure, to better physical function, and higher positive psychological states, and less memory loss. Further, hobbies may actually improve our work performance if they improve our decision-making skills, creativity and confidence.

Finding time. Setting a routine to carve out time is important initially. You may have to give up watching TV every night, or you may have to force yourself to leave the office a little earlier each day. Make your hobby a priority. Set goals for yourself and get a buddy to support you and to help you stay with a hobby.

“All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy” is a famous proverb. There may be some truth to this so make sure you find some time for yourself to relax, enjoy some fun and pick up a hobby — especially if you are depressed, stressed or going through a tough time. You will thank yourself for it, and so will your family and colleagues.

Joyce E. A. Russell is the vice dean and the director of the Executive Coaching and Leadership Development Program at the University of Maryland’s Robert H. Smith School of Business. She is a licensed industrial and organizational psychologist and has more than 25 years of experience coaching executives and consulting on leadership and career management.

I've been working behind the counter at our local hobby shop for about 18 years since retiring from a corporation.  This issue of the hobby's "value"....wherein "Value"= Financial Return...has always amused me.  Every time I talk with my financial adviser I never seem to be encouraged to explore the world of ...."Hobbies"...when it comes to my 'balanced portfolio'.  Hmmmmmm.....I wonder why? 

And, yet, back in the days of the first releases in the Joshua Lionel Cowen series of engines....the ones in the black boxes...there was this natilly dressed customer who came through the door.  None of us had seen him before.

He was most interested in the JLC series of engines just announced.  He expressed a strong determination to pre-order one.  But 'Which one?', was his dilemma.  We talked.  He asked a lot of questions, most of which seemed rather strange for someone actually in the O3R hobby.  After about half an hour he asked me the '$64,000 Question': "Which of these engines do YOU think will increase in value the most in the future?"  I said, 'None of them, probably.'  To which he left.  Never have seen him since.

Value of this hobby, or any item thereof?....fun, enjoyment, escape, relaxation, friendships, et al.  

Period.

Just MHO, mind you.

KD

Value, truly is in the Eye of the Beholder, such as, A Legacy 3751 ATSF Steamer, Yes, I paid within $100 Of BTO Pricing from a Friend, a month ago, Wow, they are hard to find in New Condition....I feel no Pain.  Yes, sometimes Emotion gets Intertwined with our Mind, and We pay for our Weaknesses, Thus, the Addiction. I know You all Understand....Enjoy.

 

leapinlarry posted:

Value, truly is in the Eye of the Beholder, such as, A Legacy 3751 ATSF Steamer, Yes, I paid within $100 Of BTO Pricing from a Friend, a month ago, Wow, they are hard to find in New Condition....I feel no Pain.  Yes, sometimes Emotion gets Intertwined with our Mind, and We pay for our Weaknesses, Thus, the Addiction. I know You all Understand....Enjoy.

 

Interesting example.  Those (to the best of my knowledge) were at least semi-blow outs shortly after they came out.  I forget what MSRP was, but I seem to remember getting one for around $800.  The 3759 variant was maybe not as prevalent on the blow out listings, but the 3751 (same number as when they did the engine in TMCC the first time, IIRC) was available from several sources at that price point.

-Dave

I know it must sound strange but I buy trains(mostly engines) for the satisfaction of owning them.  I really don't run my trains very often.  But when I look in lists of engines for sale I rarely see my engines.  It must be because I look for rare things.  It is rather amusing to chat with a fellow member of the HO modular club I belong to.  When I mention that my main interest is in 3 rail O scale.  He nearly choked on his ice tea when I told him how much I paid for a Lionel Milwaukee Road S3 4-8-4.  I just told him that I got it because I wanted it.  I told him that there was little or no profit in buying trains so he might just as well as get the ones he wants if he can afford it.  If you want to make an investment he should see a stock broker instead of a hobby shop.  Since  am 74 years old I think I would rather let my family inherit my money because they sure aren't interested in my trains.

cswalter posted:

... J Calabrese was marketing Lionel during the holidays years back, 2009? even had a store for a month across from Radio music hall. Cost was out of this world I am sure. But he was trying. ... 

We all had fun with Jerry's famous Powerpoint Presentation "funnel slide", but he did much to steer Lionel and stay focused on its core audience while also trying to fill the funnel with big box store sales to younger enthusiasts.

I'm sure today's executive team at Lionel is giving it their best effort, but I don't see the same vision (no pun intented) in place compared to the Calabrese years.  Lionel seems to be less focused on its core audience today.  And the big push to LionChief+ products with BlueTooth technology over pure Legacy products is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

If you think the value of Legacy products is dropping now, let's checkpoint in a year or so and see where the prices of LionChief+ locomotives settle on the seconday market.  My prediction is dealers won't be able to give them away, after the initial flurry of pre-orders is fulfilled. 

David

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