I tend to favor Visionline items myelf. how many others do too?
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Too much of a premium price-tag nowadays for my blood, Bob -- especially the locomotives. Those prices are a joke. The concept started with the best of intentions, but Lionel has priced itself out of the market... or should I more accurately say... beyond what I'm willing to pay. Count me out on the new VisionLine locomotives. But it's fun watching from the sideline nonetheless. I'm still waiting for GRJ to sell me the Pennsy 0-8-8-0 that he grabbed on the forum a couple of months ago for $650!!! 
Of course, it's got a little more mileage on it now... so I want an even better deal. 
As for VisionLine rolling stock... or a potential VisionLine accessory down the road... that's an entirely different matter. If Lionel keeps the price reasonable (like they did for the tankers/reefers with FreightSounds), I'm in. No need to be greedy... Menards is proving that theory in spades. 
David
Unfortunately I will not purchase vision line products. The price is outrageous. Also the prices for these new engines are becoming a little too expensive too. This is drawing me away from the hobby
I don't know how Lionel can think they can keep the Vision Line products. The folks with the money to buy them are dying off...and...there's no long line of folks behind them to keep it up.
Besides...what's so hot about the Vision Line, anyway?
Robert Coniglio posted:I tend to favor Visionline items myelf. how many others do too?
Same here but not at any price nor any model Lionel decides to produce. For example I have passed on the GG1. Price was not the issue with that model because the street price from dealers was significantly below the catalog number but the VL features of the engine just did not appeal that much to me.
I tend to agree with David that the catalog prices seem inflated but they are not the prices you pay if buying from a bigger Lionel dealer. I have given up guessing what lies behind the recent pricing policy with high numbers in the catalog that are not what the dealers actually charge.
If Lionel intends to "recycle" existing die cast engine tooling, which is a feature of recent VL offerings, they could do a lot worse than issue a VL version of the Veranda turbine (assuming of course that they have access to that tooling as the engine was made in Korea, not China).
Concur...but, being of small mind, I don't know what features you could add to a VL Veranda to justify whatever price they'd try to charge. To me, the best features are the sounds...and...I am not sure you have to call something VL to make it sound good.
I was, at one time, a very, very staunch Lionel supporter...but, I am clearly not in that class of people any more. Just because it says Lionel on it...doesn't make it best.
Of course...everyone else is smarter than I am on this one...
well, it is true that the visionline offerings are very pricey. I only buy select items myself. but it is nice to have a high end in Lionel in my opinion.
Bob C.
SD60M posted:Concur...but, being of small mind, I don't know what features you could add to a VL Veranda to justify whatever price they'd try to charge. To me, the best features are the sounds...and...I am not sure you have to call something VL to make it sound good.
Not to hijack this into another Veranda thread (there's another one going already) but the sound set of that engine could be improved and not simply by being ported (if that's the right word) from TMCC to Legacy. A hobby horse of mine is that the Veranda sound is simply not a patch on the Lionel HO version of the engine, which has a fantastic turbine start up sequence. I have never understood why something similar can't be, or isn't, available in 3 rail engines. They could also ramp up the turbine smoke output, maybe even with a second or double chamber smoke unit.
My point is that there is plenty of scope for innovative VL features with this engine if Lionel chose to go down that route. That is what keeps me interested in VL offerings.
I am on the look-out for a really good, clever, or interesting VL accessory. Has one been produced yet???
a vl Veranda would be spectacular but I think the price would be very high.
Bob C.
Robert Coniglio posted:a vl Veranda would be spectacular but I think the price would be very high. Bob C.
Agreed but then the list price was high for the TMCC version issued about 13/14 years ago (I think). It must have been the most expensive Lionel diesel up to that point (MSRP $1,249.95). It annoys me that Lionel would probably use that as the starting point for calculating what they could charge for a VL version but I would look at the new features before deciding one way or the other.
Of course it's probably all fantasy because I think after the VL Baldwin Centipede fiasco Lionel won't be too keen on a VL diesel/turbine. The first VL diesels (GE Evo in particular) were fine innovative products and genuinely a bargain at the prices applied to them.
I don't know .Depends on the item. For the most part no there getting to pricey .
I've got 3 of them (BB, Challenger, and Centipedes.) So, yes, I'm a fan of them. But, I'm not completely sold on the new GG1 so far. I thought the Hudson 700e is WAY overpriced even now. I guess it's all perception. I was working to acquire all the VL engines, but I might be done on that front. Would sure love a 2-10-10-2 or 2-12-2 or some such monster. At least with those large engines I feel like I've gotten something.
But, if not VL for "really good stuff", then what? 3rd rail? Where lies the "really good stuff" that doesn't require a second mortgage?
.
Hancock52 posted:Agreed but then the list price was high for the TMCC version issued about 13/14 years ago (I think). It must have been the most expensive Lionel diesel up to that point (MSRP $1,249.95). It annoys me that Lionel would probably use that as the starting point for calculating what they could charge for a VL version but I would look at the new features before deciding one way or the other.
...
My recollection is a bit foggy surrounding the pricing for Lionel's TMCC-version of the Veranda. But I wanna say that the actual street-price of the Veranda was reduced -- and not by an insignificant amount either -- after Lionel shelved plans to produce an Odyssey motor which was to be used in the Veranda. Instead, an Odyssey "system" was developed, which was then phased into high-end locomotives at the time. (And now, of course, with Legacy we have Odyssey II.)
As for the future of non-steam VL product, it will be interesting to see the consumer's take on the upcoming VL GG-1. That may be a good barometer as to the likelihood of a VL diesel anytime soon... folks have often talked about the possibility of a VisionLine F3 or a VisionLine Veranda Turbine.
David
Hancock52 posted:Robert Coniglio posted:I tend to favor Visionline items myelf. how many others do too?
I tend to agree with David that the catalog prices seem inflated but they are not the prices you pay if buying from a bigger Lionel dealer. I have given up guessing what lies behind the recent pricing policy with high numbers in the catalog that are not what the dealers actually charge.
Robert.....Nice, Maybe one, someday. I never did spend cash like that unless I "needed it". Ok so say I hit the lotto ...two and a Legacy. Till then I'm fine.
Hancock...Bachmann has stated in the past, their offerings are higher on their site so they are not undercutting their hobby dealers on-the shelf prices. I'm willing to bet that's the case for Lionel too.
"SYLHS" support your local hobby shop
Hancock52 posted:Robert Coniglio posted:a vl Veranda would be spectacular but I think the price would be very high. Bob C.
Agreed but then the list price was high for the TMCC version issued about 13/14 years ago (I think). It must have been the most expensive Lionel diesel up to that point (MSRP $1,249.95). It annoys me that Lionel would probably use that as the starting point for calculating what they could charge for a VL version but I would look at the new features before deciding one way or the other.
Of course it's probably all fantasy because I think after the VL Baldwin Centipede fiasco Lionel won't be too keen on a VL diesel/turbine. The first VL diesels (GE Evo in particular) were fine innovative products and genuinely a bargain at the prices applied to them.
Agreed! And predicted. Par for the course. (somewhere out there is a post on another site predicting a steeper than normal price climb if it sold)
That price is higher than I remember, but I remember thinking "after tax, it's over a grand???". (but it's not even steam
....[diesels are simpler builds IMO])
Brass trains suddenly looked way more affordable.
(three "needed" in brass....."Come on #7 daddy want's a new train!" 
)
In fact, that price is how I rediscovered Williams.
Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
I have no problem buying a VL product as long as it fits my layout's theme. I did pass on the GG1 because I already have several scale ones and another one just didn't make since.
I am.
I feel we are fortunate as O gauge hobbyist to have a manufacturer continually invest in and produce some of the best O gauge models ever! So I'm going to "get while the gettins good!" Because from the sounds of it, its not going to last long.
If I like the offering I buy it. If not I pass. I save my money for things I like. Funny like that. The Veranda would be on my list for sure.
And Elliot, you're so right.
Good Day,
The simple answer to your question below,............................... no.
How Many Are Commited To Lionel Visionline Products No Matter What?
Regards,
Swafford
Well, as soon as Lionel does a model I like then I'll spring for it. I would definitely buy a Vision Line GP40-2 or SD40-2 (Chessie System) if either came to light.
If I like it I will buy it. If not maybe wait a few years and get it at a reduced price or maybe not. Buy it if you want, run em if you want, be happy and enjoy your hobby. You are only here for a short time.
good input above
Bob C.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
I would be happy with an "Econo-line", no sound or smoke, and I don't even care about Legacy. I'm not one of those complainers, I just don't buy expensive trains. With only a couple of exceptions, spending more than $300 for an engine violates my principles.
We Eliot/Elliots are of similar mind on this.
"HOW MANY ARE COMMITTED TO LIONEL VISIONLINE PRODUCTS NO MATTER WHAT?"
Not me! So far, there hasn't been a "VISIONLINE" product that fits my modeling era, and I really don't desire any of those "VISIONLINE FEATURES" anyway.
Now,,,,,,,,that recently announced UP FEF-3 model with the "as delivered" Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System, certainly is one I'll be waiting to see before I purchase.
I've got a few vision line locos, challenger, big boy, 3 gevos, genset, centipedes. Every one of them is awesome and I'm happy I have em but if I don't like it, I don't get it. If I didn't already have a gg1 I'd be considering that but my JLC version is just fine for me.
The fact that its Visionline doesn't make it more desireable to me unless its a never before produced prototype in a roadname I am interested in. The special effects impress me less than accuracy and detail.
Pete
I'm committed to things that peak my interest. I have some Vision Line stuff, but I don't buy it automatically just because it's a VL product. Like Matt, I'm passing on the GG-1, I just don't see the value added over the JLC one I already have.
Livesteam1987 posted:Unfortunately I will not purchase vision line products. The price is outrageous. Also the prices for these new engines are becoming a little too expensive too. This is drawing me away from the hobby
This is exactly what I am hearing a lot of lately. I am watching folks slowly walk away from the hobby because of the cost now associated with all products from all vendors. Not to mention availability. Trust me if this hobby was worth the time you'd see several overseas manufactures producing good quality, O scale, "scale" items that are way under the cost of what we are paying now. Simple fact is, it's not worth the effort for such a tiny market. I will not be buying any Vision Line Steam Engines, but may (teeth clinched) throw the $$$ towards a diesel VL offering if that is next. And I'm Not saying the hobby is dying, but as people move their finances into other hobbies, somthings got to give. Mark my words, the downsize or disappearance of manufacturers isn't over just yet. It's just whos next.
The high end market will always exist even though the air is thin
example - Rolex watch @ $14,000. does not keep time any better than a $1300. Tag, still there is no shortage in demand
- $100,000. Mercedes will get you anywhere a Ford Edge will, still no shortage in demand
Lionel is filling a market, don't take it personal if your not in that market. its just business
gunrunnerjohn posted:Like Matt, I'm passing on the GG-1, I just don't see the value added over the JLC one I already have.
Agreed. If I had a JLC I'd be in the same boat but since I don't have a JLC the VL is my choice.
There will never be any VL in my inventory of trains. I don't look for it - don't care.
I'm not too pumped by Legacy and not into anything DCS. Excitement by others - well good for them. The broad appeal of our hobby and the way we each want to participate just keeps it going.
Norton posted:The fact that its Visionline doesn't make it more desireable to me unless its a never before produced prototype in a roadname I am interested in. The special effects impress me less than accuracy and detail.
Pete
Exactly my thoughts.. The definition of VL as per Lionel has always been a new feature presented in either a never before produced prototype or "existing" engines, RS or accessories. Some here still have this misguided mindset that aside from new VL features presented, VL engines are more detailed, a better made product then any previous edition made a few years earlier. Minus new features, its been shown to be exactly the same product sometimes nearly doubled in price. I'm wondering who expects the VL GG1 to be any different?
I still recall statements made on how those poor folks who own outdated legacy JLC BigBoys will be giving it away when the VL Bigboy is released. Some did. Turned out to be another example of common sense gone astray.
joe
I will buy Vision Line Steam if it is a railroad that I model,it also makes Third Rail competitive on price with more detail and less sound.
Mikey
I plan to buy a Vision GG-1 even though I have all six JLC versions and 12 other scale versions. I love most of the Vision Line locos and, what is more, Lionel stands behind them.
This thread was supposed to be about who supports Vision Line locos unreservedly. That does not have to mean price, it could also mean features. Some Vision Line locos were not feature rich and made little sense to me (Centipedes) and some were very feature rich (Challengers). I do not care for the Big Boy coal load and I wish the Vision loco was an Allegeheny, but I'm in for another GG-1.
My last word, I challenge all of the moaners and whiners about price to limit their moaning and whining the next time a thread like this appears and, if they MUST, moan and whine, let's include the price of bananas.
Guacamole, by the way, has really gone up. Have you seen the price on asparagus and . . . . ��
Robert Coniglio posted:I tend to favor Visionline items myelf. how many others do too?
This is a good poll type thread!
Having gotten into the hobby 4 years ago with my twin sons, I was initially in the camp that Lionel was to be avoided at all costs as its products offered less than similar items from MTH but at significantly higher prices. And, it seemed that only an absolute sucker would consider paying even higher prices for a marketing scheme - a designer name offering ("Vision"), but basically (a) the same Lionel locomotive with (b) the same build standard and (c) the same inferior smoke effects (anemic output and not the staccato bursts from the stack in comparison to MTH) - but with a gimmick like whistle steam or a swinging bell. And then I bought the Vision Challenger and Legacy, and wow! Sound from both locomotive and tender. Smoke effects galore. And Legacy is a lot less quirky than DCS for us, so a whole lot less frustration and a whole lot more smiles and fun for my children.
I would say this - my perspective on Lionel has changed thanks to its Vision offerings. Indirectly, that Vision Challenger was the reason I bought Legacy. In turn, our satisfaction with that Challenger and Legacy is the reason we have only bought Lionel steamers since that revelation. I also think Vision products stand for innovation. Whether or not Vision products actually deliver innovation and are worth our hard-earned money is, for us, to be judged on an item-by-item basis.
Peter
Scrapiron Scher posted:Same cast of characters bemoaning the prices. Woe is me, where is chicken little? The hobby is doomed. Why not rail at brass prices or the price of a Kohs Hudson? Why not criticize Scott Mann for producing passenger car sets over $2,000? Why not criticize MTH for producing Moguls and Mikados over $1,000? We're all doomed. There is, as there always has been, a very simple solution to all of this. I release all your angst and put you at ease. All is well.
My solution? DON'T BUY !
See, I have solved it.
If I recall the title of this thread included "no matter what". Unless the author said to keep the "bemoaning" of prices out of it then price and availability is fair game. Last I checked an open forum is just that. Open for people to express their concerns and opinions. Price is a huge factor for many folks. And you're right if you can't afford it.....don't buy it!!!! That's simple common sense. But for those of us who can afford them and have a strong opinion of value for the dollar, I'll express my opinion on it whether you like it or not. So in turn, I have a little challenge for you, If you don't like that others have an opinion opposing yours why contribute to the forum? If it bothers you that much that you feel the need to bemoan others,
My solution.........keep your comments to yourself.
However, you're free to express your opinions just like everyone else on this forum.
See, I solved your issue!
Well, the price of these locomotives are close to the cost of good High Frequency/Shortwave Ham radios. If seems the Ham stuff has a lower fail rate out of the box than VL, and for the cost the Ham stuff really has more features.
Because of this, VL is not on my radar, in for prototypes I would like.
I currently own a VL 700E and, while the features are nice, I don’t personally believe that it demands the price tag the Lionel set for it. In addition to that I don’t really see any more VL locomotives in the immediate future for myself purely because of the rising cost.
There are too many threads on this forum, and probably other forums, where posters are aggravated with failing electronics and remote systems that necessitate sending items back for repair. Whether it’s because of build quality, failing features or user fault, that remains to be seen. The only thing that I know is that if I spent thousands on a brand new locomotive and it failed almost immediately, I would be pretty angry about it.
I don’t have a lot of trains nor do I purchase any vast quantities during the year. The majority of the ones that I do have been made in the 90’s that I run on tubular track. Conventional controls and tubular track have been around for more than 100 years and have been proven to stand the test of time.
The extra “bells and whistles” are nice and everyone is entitled to enjoy his or her trains as they see fit, but as for myself, I think I’ll stick to simplicity.
