How much power do my trains use?

Lee, thanks for the info. I'm very interested because here in Maui we pay $100 every six days to run our house. Don

Most people would agree that, given where you live, it is worth it . . . 

Oh I'm not complaining at all. Don

I use a kill-a-watt to measure consumed wattage at the wall outlet. Using my CW80 to power two trains at full output (green light flashing) I measured 110 watts from the wall.

If you are concerned about the power cost used for your trains, then you are really in the wrong hobby. Power cost is pretty low on the scale when you are paying $1000 per engine etc.

Flash - your results are pretty close to mine, percentage wise, then - about 2/3 to the trains and 1/3 lost.  

 

KevinE - I'm not concerned about the cost at all.  At ten cents per kilowatt hour my fun costs all of $2.65/month.  A tube of glue for scratch-building costs more.  But it is interesting, how much power the trains consume. 

 

Another interesting thing I determined today when measuring: lighted caboose with incandescent lights = about 6 watts.  With LED, about 1 watt.  

Very interesting, Lee. I was wondering about that. Did you happen to measure any operating accessories (if you have any)?

 

BTW, where are you in NC? Email if you like (see profile); I'm near Fuquay-Varina when in NC.

 

Bruce

 

I meant to add one of these , at the end of my post!

At least you don't need much heating. I suppose the power stations are diesel powered? They should have steam turbines powered by the volcano heat underground. My quarterly bill is about $250. Winter, it might get to $400 for that quarter.

I dread to think what folk in the cold parts of the US pay.

Lee, the big power user is the smoke generator, I measured my Darstaed locos, they have no smoke, and only draw 0.2 amps.

I'd add a bit more to your calculation. Most likely that 1/3 loss is dissipated as heat. I've noticed in my trainroom, with all lights on and running, the room temp increases quickly requiring Air Conditioning even in cooler months. More people more A/C required.  I have a lot of incandescent display lighting.  I would guess basic area condition to be at least what you plugged in for lighting, maybe less if we are talking heat only, the gained heat from the inefficiency would lessen the heat load. Cooling and dehumidification would be more.   

Here's how Hawaii gets its electric power:

 

http://www.heco.com/vcmcontent...PowerFacts_52011.pdf

Thanks Allan, their building a wind farm here now but say it won't cut our power bill at all. Don

Interesting stats, and a full array of generating methods (except nuclear), I didn't think there would be coal. Is it mined locally or imported from the mainland?

 

I Recommend the Kill-A-Watt also.  A very useful tool for all over the house.

 

Mike, there is no heating system in our house. Don

Thanks all.  This is turning out to be quite interesting.   We pay a pretty typical rate for power (10.3 cents) but have a low electric bill because even with an electric car we're pretty efficiency and low usage.  I'm rather proud of the energy usage of our house.  It was built as 3147 cooled/heated sq. feet with two AC units (one up, one down), dble pane windows, etc.: typical high efficiency 1990-era house.  Heat is high eff gas.  

    In '95 I finished the attic, building what was then a 400+ sq. ft., studio apartment for my son up there.  It is now my train room and workshop.  I built it with R64 insulation to its walls and ceiling and added a foot of pink stuff over all the attic floor not covered by the apartment.  All that insulation and sealing reduced the heat losses of the house enough that I could almost get away with no net increase in cooling units: I re-routing some cool air from the upstairs unit to the attic apartment and had to add only a very small window unit to assist in very hot times.  

   Since then I have replaced the AC with max efficiency (SEER 14) units and gone past compact fluorescent lighting where we can to LED, etc.  We average about 800 kWhr a month, varying between about 1300 in summer to 500 in winter, at avg 10.3 cents for a typical bill of about $85.  Gas heat for air and water runs about the same avg yearround.  Electrically a typical month breaks down like this:

 

- Car (800 miles electric)-- 250

- AC+fans-------------------- 210

- Lighting--------------------  175

- Cooking---------------------- 60

- Model trains----------------- 25

- Entertainment (TVs)          25

- Other------------------------- 40

-------------------------Total  800

 

My model trains are not a major usage, but it is interesting that they use enough to show up on this list at all.  Our house is efficient, but the low usage is mostly lifestyle: we're two older folks who live pretty quietly.  My youngest son has a 1600 sq. ft. house about five miles from us, roughly as efficiently insulated and fitted out, and pays about $110/month - there are only the two of them but they live a lot "louder" than we do. :-)

Gee, I sure hope not!  My 18 years living in Hawaii did see a few unseasonably cool days, but nothing that would have required a heating system.  When it comes to overall climatic conditions, the Islands have to be about the best you can find anywhere.  And all that saved energy should just mean that you can build an even larger layout and run even more trains.  

Well Lee, you can be proud of yourself, very responsible power use, it's great to do such detailed examination of what you use.

Lee,

 

So for about 1 kWhr/day (26 kWhr/month), you run your trains.

 

To put this in perspective, how does it compare to what household appliances (LCD TV, refrigerator, stove, microwave, desktop computer etc) use per day?  I had to reach behind my 19" flat screen monitor yesterday and noticed there's quite a bit of heat generated from it.  It probably cost me more to type this than it does to run my trains for 1 hour LOL!

 

What type of trains are you running, passenger or freight?  How many lighted buildings do you have on your layout (bulbs or LEDs)?

 

I suspect folks with a postwar type layout have a higher usage than those with modern, can-motored engines and buildings with LEDs.

"Well Lee, you can be proud of yourself, very responsible power use,"

 

Well,  I'm a power engineer who consults to utilities on energy efficiency and EV impacts on power distribution systems. The engineer in my measures and tracks things - its just what I do (e.g,. the table that started this thread.)   As to the energy efficiency, I'm simply following my own advice.

--> Strictly speaking, as much insulation as I added, and the EV, don't cost-justify themselves at my current prices for electricity.  The insulation only breaks even on cash cost at 10 years - too long a payback to interest most folks.  And the EV is worse: it consumes $28 a month of electricity to avoid using about $155 of gasoline: it will repay the extra $20K it cost in 13 years: considerably longer than I am likely to own it. 

--> However, there are benefits beyond savings to both.  First, our home is much more uniformly cool in summer and warm in winter with all that insulation and heat mirror film on its windows.  And until you experience it you can't appreciate how convenient, and just pleasant, it is to never have to stop at a gas station to fill up your car.

Well, I have all solid state ( TV's and monitors only (more efficient) that power down when not in use, and as i said a couple of posts above, they net about what the trains do each month - around 25 kWhr per month for Tv's radios, computers.

 

As to trains, I posted just what I was running the other afternoon in the table at the beginning of this thread, and while I vary a bit, I am always running:

- two scale Legacy or Vision or PS2 or 3 steamers, one each on my two big loops, powered by the Z4000,

-one to four BEEPS or BEEFS on my Beepworld loop (CW-80)

- a Williams ten-wheeler or something similar on my mountain/mining loop (CW-80), 

- two or three SS cars, and two city buses, on my Superstreets (two old DC HO supplies).

Usually one of those trains has lighted passenger cars, so the total is right around the 276 net watts listed, or if no passenger consist, about 175, or if two passenger trains (rare, but on occasion, about 350. 

   I suppose I could use up to nearly 450 net, about 650 - 700 watts with losses in an extreme case; I have a postwar A-B-A all powered set of SF warbonnet F3s that each consume 30-40 watts with their old Pullmor motors, and if I run all three at once them alone consume 110+ watts versus maybe 40 for a modern set . . .

There is a lot to be learned just reviewing utility bills and doing comparisons. Two of Lee's major energy consuming items, Heat and Hot water are not included in his electric summary, because they are natural gas. Currently at a 30 year low here in the U.S. do to all the recent shale gas developement. 

- Car (800 miles electric)-- 250 

This energy use is not normally consider part of the home.

- AC+fans-------------------- 210

- Lighting--------------------  175

- Cooking---------------------- 60

- Model trains----------------- 25

- Entertainment (TVs)          25

- Other------------------------- 40

-------------------------Total  800

Heat natural gas

Hot water  natural gas

So total energy consumption is a bit more though extreme well done for that size home.

 

 

Comparison usage listed on my electric bill

Month---------------- April 2011------April 2012

Average khr per day-------86-------------42

Average Temp (deg. F)----42-------------54

YTD Usage khr----------11,676---------8904

Car use (Prius) (April) (2) fill-ups  18.09 gal @ $3.959  $71.71 

 @ 45mpg  814 miles.  

Probably my biggest train related energy expense is the luxury of heating the 576 sq ft garage as my work shop, done with electric resistance space heaters.   

 

         

A very convenient way to measure power draw of individual legs of the layout is using a clamp-on AC ammeter, they're not that expensive, and they're a very hand tool to have around.

Tried to find your e-mail, F-V, but they don't seem to be listed in the profiles any more - I could not find it, anyway.  e-mail me at Lwillis@quanta-technology.com if you want.

 

I live in SW Cary about 20 minutes from F-V. 

John,

How do you "clamp" the clamp-on meter around your track?  Do you do it on a trestle or some spot where you can get the clamp underneath?

Usually, you would pick a wire that leads to the track. In this picture two wires that are paralleled.

Here we're on American Electric Power or AEP as we call them 7.00 Cents a Kilowatt hour( I just happened to have retired from AEP)
Most of AEP's generation is coal fired with some hydro used as boosters.
There are some  wind farms in the works but unless you have a heck of alot of them they're as yet not very efficient . I've been watching another new technology evolve.
Solar power. They've made some great strides in panel design and output in the last couple years and in the not to distant future could be efficient enough to put the power companys as we know them out of the residential business.
These panels can also be a source for hot water and with pipes circulating through the ground coolant lines for A/C and heating systems.
This new technology is evolving so fast that the kids here at the local college in electrical engineering curriculum have a half semester class in solar power.

If you really want to save on your electric bill

The biggest culprit is your hot water heater it's a silent thief.
If you have it set to high or one element is bad it'll rob you blind with nothing to show for it.
Next is the outside portion of your heat pump. Is it more than 10 years old? 15 maybe?
Well it'll save you money if you replace it with a new one with a scroll compressor.
They're efficient enough to make the expense worth it.
Then you get into the small but maybe not so small stuff. Replace any bulb you can with the new CFL or LED bulbs
Reduce your fridge AND freezer setting by a notch.
Keep room doors shut and turn off lights when you leave.
This probably has special meaning for Don( and most of the rest of us)
Turn ceiling fans off when you leave the room. They're really quiet these days and easy to forget.No sense running it if your not there to enjoy it.
All these little things cost you money. Taking care of all these things can easily save you several hundred dollars a year. Now what could you buy with that?

David

if all you have time to do is worry about how much the electricity cost to run your trains, then you should sell or give them away! Trains are supposed to be a fun, albeit expensive,  hobby. Worrying about the cost to run them sorta takes the fun out of the equation. While running the trains and worrying about how many little watts you killin' sounds like a chore which by its other name is work!

Hang on a sec...

 

It's an academic exercise, not rain on a parade. I was interested in this as a mental exercise rather than a reason whether or not to run trains...

 

I'm not sure anybody needs to read more into this than "Mmmm..., that's interesting" and fill up the smoke unit for another 30 min of joy!

 

As always, I learn a lot from you guys who are doing the electrical engineering...

 

Bruce

it may well be academic, playing with my trains is not. I was once told that you revert to a pleasant time in your childhood, where nothing is wrong or right, just a pleasant interlude and fun. 

Amen, paperboys, couldn't agree more

 

Bruce

No offense, but that's pure bunk.   With today's technology, it's simply not cost effective to generate any significant part of your electric energy with solar power.   In many parts of the country, solar simply doesn't make sense.  The ROI on a solar installation in SE-PA would be basically forever!

Solar power only works with tax breaks. I hope someday it will work without the tax payers subsidizing it but I think that's a long way off. Don

Only the government can afford to spend the kind of money it costs to do that.  Like I said, it's simply not cost effective for someone that actually has to pay the bills to do such a thing.  It's not even close.  You're not looking at the ROI on that solar installation, if you were you'd be stunned!

 

My last post on solar power, we've already dragged this far enough off-topic.

I'll say it again for all you that missed it. If you read about the advances in just the last 2 years That ROI your speaking of just got way more attractive.

Solar power. They've made some great strides in panel design and output in the last couple years and in the not to distant future could be efficient enough to put the power companys as we know them out of the residential business.
These panels can also be a source for hot water and with pipes circulating through the ground coolant lines for A/C and heating systems.
This new technology is evolving so fast that the kids here at the local college in electrical engineering curriculum have a half semester class in solar power because this will be the new norm.

Those solar arrays coupled with super conductors will allow whole towns to be independent of the power companys. The output of these new panels is far more than it used to be meaning they're more efficient which will require less panels making them more cost effective.
My friend teaches the course at the college and I've looked thru the books for the course and we have discussed it at length . The contractors that take the time to get certified in the installation of these new panels will be very glad they did.
Hey yall started this about the use of electricity . I'm just telling you whats coming down the pike.

David

I've setup my backyard garage so I can run my trains on solar power.

 

1 15watt solar panel $35

1 12 volt deep cycle marine battery $60

1 400watt modified sine-wave inverter $35

 

That smug feeling I get every time Al Gore comes over to run my trains using the cleanest energy possible...

 

...priceless

 

 

Of course I'm kidding. I would never let Al Gore touch my trains

 

Seriously though, its a start.

The only problem with the setup is the cheap 400w inverter. It wont power my overhead florescent tube lights because of the modified sine wave.

I'm gonna have to buy a much better and more expensive "pure" sine-wave inverter.

 

I have been doing small scale experimenting with solar power for about 8 years now.

I have calculated the break even point of solar power, assuming I did all the labor myself, to be about 10 years.

 

 

 

A little Retro.   About a month ago I was helping my  youngest daughter move her friend to a very nice 70ish house in Boardman OH.   I explained to the young couple that the house was 70ish and pointed out a few things that they were not aware of.  He mentioned an interesting box the size of an electric panel that even his house inspector was puzzle by.  The house, when built, had electric heat cables plastered in the ceiling, still functioning, with a thermostat in every room.  The unknown box in the basement was a power management system, most likely supplied by the power company.  Electrical billing was based, not only on kwh (kilowatt hrs), actual energy used, but  also Maximum demand Kilowatts.   This type of billing is very common for medium, and heavy commercial users.

The Power company supply system has to be designed for maximum, transmission and gereration.  If the power company can temper the peaks, its to there advantage.  So this control system, with dialed-in, selective, maximum Kilowatt setting,  would  cycle room heat circuits as required to meet the setting.  A lower Kilowatt measurement for the month meant a lower electric bill.

 

More common were seperate demand meters for electric hot water tanks that turned the tanks off from 10AM to 12Noon and 5 PM to 10PM, peak electric demand time.  

 

Kind of like parking one train to run another.  If you want to run two at the same time it's going to cost you more. Not just twice for the amount of energy used, but a sur-charge for our generation system having to be larger.