How safe is model train smoke?

I think if you’re worried about it don’t turn it on. It’s a pretty simple solution for anyone concerned.

Im sure Dr. Neil has some insight. Me. I run smoke.

I'm pretty sure I'll die of something else before vaporized mineral oil kills me, I'm running my smoke!

@MartyE posted:

I think if you’re worried about it don’t turn it on. It’s a pretty simple solution for anyone concerned.

Im sure Dr. Neil has some insight. Me. I run smoke.

Thanks for your input, Marty. If I'm worried at all, it's only a tiny bit. As I mentioned before, I love the smoke feature. I plan to continue to enjoy it in moderation.

Still, I wonder about its safety, and am curious what others think. Arnold

Arnold, I run an engine one time with smoke - when it’s brand new and I’m making sure that function works. After I’ve confirmed it works, it is turned off and stays off.

Now, my youngest son, who still maintains a layout in my basement till his wife gives him room in their basement, loves smoke. When he’s in my basement running trains he is a true believer in maximum smoke output. When he is downstairs running, I can’t go down there. While everything I’ve read on the topic indicates model train smoke isn’t harmful, it makes it difficult for me to breathe. It may be purely psychological on my part but, if I can’t breathe in a roomful of train smoke that’s MY reality.

Curt

I know it is dangerous to people with respiratory conditions like asthma.  I posted on this about 3+ years ago and learned a lot because my wife has asthma.  A lot of good came out of that post because I purchased an awesome air purifier out of Canada and put it in my train room.  When I run smoke, my train room is sealed beneath the door with a rag and the purifier cleanses the air 100% using a heavy-duty carbon filter.

Since then, because I run the purifier on low 24 hrs. a day, the air quality in our home is remarkably better and my wife ran it high during Covid whenever we had an unexpected visitor or contractor visiting.  It also removes a lot of dust in the train room and the rest of the basement.

Mike

Curt, I greatly appreciate your above post. If model train smoke affects your breathing at all, it's certainly best for you to shut off the smoke feature on your trains.

I'm more like your youngest son. Like him, I set the smoke at maximum output, and never turn it off. Whenever I don't want smoke, I simply run trains that don't have the smoke feature. Arnold

It's not smoke. It is vapor; fog, if you will. There's no combustion.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Thanks for your input, Marty. If I'm worried at all, it's only a tiny bit. As I mentioned before, I love the smoke feature. I plan to continue to enjoy it in moderation.

Still, I wonder about its safety, and am curious what others think. Arnold

I have an assortment of comments.

A fellow TCA member who is also an MD did suggest that a sign be posted on public display layouts warning that asthmatics may be sensitive to the smoke.  I have the exact wording somewhere.

I do know that Rich Melvin does not want the contents of smoke fluids revealed in detail.

Most fluids are petroleum distillates which cover a long list of chemicals.  Many, when vaporized, are near harmless.

Having designed fluids for the TAS smoke unit, I can tell you that many folks I have talked with have used fluids that are toxic and dangerous.  There is no room for experimentation here, just use what the marketplace offers.

Regards,

Lou N

Back in the 50's, I used to inhale the smoke directly out of the engine stack and exhale it to make believe I was smoking a cigarette. 

I'd be more concerned about the pesticides in your oatmeal.

Smoke ‘vapor’ is indeed a valid concern and I am surprised every manufacturer is not required to have an MSDS for it, we have to have one for EVERY minor chemical we use at most places I do maintenance as a precaution against any possible legal action with the public we serve in Motels and apartments.

I’ve also been around ‘fog’ a lot in my small part in the live entertainment industry (play music, volunteer at our local independent radio station and act as roadie/ sound man/ videographer for friends’ bands).

Commercial fog is just glycerin of various percentages, but even this basic chemical causes trouble in people with asthma and other issues that cause sensitive lungs, indeed there is building proof of simple vaporized glycerin causing this and it may get to a point we have to post signs around, which is no problem for me, I want to keep friends, family and fans safe and comfortable!

I know there have been many formulations of model train ‘smoke’ over the years, many ‘patent’ or at least ‘trade secret’ products, I would not doubt that sooner or later MSDS sheets will need to be made available for liability concerns.

I don’t know what these cost manufacturers  to generate but personally, I feel much more comfortable knowing if there are ANY concerns, I can pull out my binder and show it to anyone concerned and that generally is the end of the story. Insurance companies love full disclosure, tort lawyers generally don’t pursue action where full disclosure is made.

Though it has never been asked of me, if an attorney wanted more information about what I use I would be glad to flood them with a deluge of technical documentation that would make their head spin. 😊

Mine is a non-smoking house.  I learned from our gas company technician that women have 10x better sense of smell than men, so I respect her wishes of no model train smoke.

I've run smoke for years and still going strong....

But seriously, I have allergies and it does not irritate my nose or eyes. I think after all these years if there were a correlation between train smoke and health issues, it would have surfaced by now..

Arnold - this is a "Very interesting" post -as always!

I never inhale...

I don't really have a dog in this hunt inasmuch as  I only have two steam locos and there is no black smoke available for my six Alcos. In both instances I have cut the wires to those two smoke units to permanently disable them. Why? Because the smoke makes my eyes water and stings my nostrils; while a former member of our Thursday night train group loved smoke and in spite of being asked not to, turned the smoke units on whenever I wasn't looking or elsewhere in the room.

I've inhaled much worse than train smoke many, many years ago and I am still here. Might have killed and/or dusted some brain cells but the amount of smoke we inhale from running trains is a lot less than what was consumed in the "hey man, this is good s--t" days.

Besides, we can buy all kinds of flavor/smell!

Keep running those trains.

Arnold, I applaud you for having the courage to raise this issue. I imagine a lot of readers are rolling their eyes at this question, IMO mostly because they love their smoke and don't want to entertain the possibility that this great hobby could pose a hazard to their health. But common sense tells us that breathing in foreign substances in a confined space can at best be neutral and at worse be hazardous. I think yours is a very valid concern, and that makers of smoke generators (not just Lionel but Seuthe and others) should be transparent about what's in their smoke and what the potential health effects are.

Is there a safety data sheet available?

I found this in about 2 seconds:

https://mthtrains.com/news/006

I may be misreading this MSDS, but it appears to indicate the material's properties in its liquid form. Since the oil is vaporized in the smoke generator, is it the role of the MSDS to indicate expected impacts of the substance in its vaporized form?

The above is from www.megasteam.com. 

A PDF from supersmoke that was brought to my attention under my "asthma" post a few years ago also says if a contaminated room bothers you, leave it.  Good advice for health reasons for anyone that is affected by it.

I love smoke and run my trains with smoke because it doesn't bother me at all.  But I have a system to separate it from the rest of the house.

It’s probably not all that different than burning a candle, and surely not as bad as sitting next to a camp fire.

As with anything, everything in moderation.

This is one of those subjects that comes up at least once a year, for over two decades in fact, the entire life of this forum..  It’s been discussed to death every which way, up and down, left to right.  

And what have we learned?  Nothing of any importance, use them if you like the effect or don’t.  That simple.

Over the decades I've used Floquil, Diosol, tube glue, Solvaset, gasoline, lacquer thinner,  trichloroethylene, and more...

An' I ain't got no dain bramage yet.

erdnA

As a former cigarette smoker since 2008 and retired baker since 2003, I have a mild case of COPD but the smoke vaper doesn't bother me but I did install a bathroom exhaust fan above my layout, and it pulls the smoke right up and out. 99% of the time I run trains with the smoke turned off or on low volume on the MTH steamers. I never run smoke units in my diesels.

@superwarp1 posted:

This is one of those subjects that comes up at least once a year, for over two decades in fact, the entire life of this forum..

Seem to recall one such discussion many years ago where one forum member, in all seriousness, decided that toy train smoke was the root cause of all of his health issues at the time and announced that he planned to sue Lionel, MTH, and one or two smoke fluid makers. iirc he disappeared from the forum soon after, but pretty sure that lawsuit never got anywhere…

redrockbill

Smoke ! Oh no !!!

If only I could get black smoke from my Alcos.

Seriously though, don't use it if you are sensitive to it. Obviously I'm not.

@Ron H posted:

Smoke ! Oh no !!!

If only I could get black smoke from my Alcos.

Seriously though, don't use it if you are sensitive to it. Obviously I'm not.

Love them smokin Alcos! Though white smoke would indicate a coolant leak generally!

When I was a kid on the San Francisco Peninsula the smoking FM Trainmaster’s were ‘honorary steam locos’ because all steam was gone to scrap or parks before I was born in 64, though we did see The Flying Scotsman on a foggy November day in about 1971…

@rplst8 posted:

It’s probably not all that different than burning a candle, and surely not as bad as sitting next to a camp fire.

As with anything, everything in moderation.

If you are using mineral oil, a.k.a. paraffinic oil, in your smoke unit, it produces exactly the same type of "smoke" that a paraffin candle produces AFTER being blown out, which is why you get the same smell. In fact, a "sooty" burning paraffin candle (wick not trimmed properly) produces more hazardous particulates (including "buckyballs", apparently) than the vaporized paraffinic oil micro-droplets from your smoke unit, even with a fan.

@Lou N posted:

I do know that Rich Melvin does not want the contents of smoke fluids revealed in detail.

Regards,

Lou N

Why?

@Gene H posted:

but I did install a bathroom exhaust fan above my layout, and it pulls the smoke right up and out

My air purifier does that, too, at 600 cf per minute, like a commercial grade bath fan.  It also enhances the look of smoke coming from my engines by pulling the steam from across the room into it. I like the look of that, and the smoke isn't in my face. 

Tempest in a teapot.

@Lou N posted:

I do know that Rich Melvin does not want the contents of smoke fluids revealed in detail.

Regards,

Lou N

I’m pretty sure Rich doesn’t care if anyone knows what’s in smoke fluid but OGR always frowned upon talk of any home brew smoke fluid when there are safe and manufacturer recommended fluids available for purchase.

There are no definitive answers as the issue has never been studied in any way. This material (neutral fats) is very different than the products of combustion and microparticulate matter, which clearly are associated with heart and lung disease (and earlier death).   Neutral fats do not interact with the body's cells by and large and thus do not directly cause inflammation as do products of combustion.  Very large amounts of mineral oil or mineral oil like substances (i.e., neutral fats) in liquid form that find their way into the lung can cause serious or even fatal pneumonia.   But vapor phase mineral oil has never been studied to my knowledge.  The dose is much lower, but penetration into the lung is probably much greater than liquid phase. Probably a modest or zero risk for occasional exposure.  For daily exposure for longer periods of time, maybe not such a good idea.  Particularly for those with lung or heart disease, and for children.

The observation that asthmatic individuals react badly to model train "smoke" in some instances tells us two things, if correct. The vapor phase lipid (fat) makes its way down into the "tubing" (bronchi) and perhaps into the functional units of the lung (alveoli) and can cause at least irritation in susceptible individuals.  Everyone will just have to make their own choices and risk assessments, since there are no data whatever.  My own choice is to only rarely use smoke units.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Tempest in a teapot.

BOY......YOU SAID IT!!!!!!!

I love smoke and it doesn’t bother me. It does bother my wife and when she comes to the basement I stop the smoke. Wearing a mask might help those who want smoke but find it irritating. I’m going to ask my wife to try one out to learn if it helps.

Ed

Doubt everyone will be happy as it appears there are 2 distinct camps. It was mentioned about candles, what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners? How do they get the scent out? Have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day, went to a restaurant with a group and they asked for cooked on the grill hot dogs. When his arrived with some minor charring he said it causes cancer and he avoids it. They all stared in disbelief.

Over the years, I've often pondered your question Arnold.   I do like the smoke, especially from the steam locomotives,  because the visual enhances the realistic thrill!    I also enjoy the scented smoke especially the Christmas Pine Scent.  

I am, however, sensitive to the fact that some folks are physically sensitive to smoke.  When visitors come see my layout I first run locomotives with the smoke off and ask visitors if they are physically sensitive  to smoke or have a health issue that smoke may irritate.  If someone does I leave the smoke off and of course if no one has objections I turn smoke on one locomotive at a time.  I also keep a window AC unit ( with an exhaust setting ) in my train room year round for the purpose of evacuating the smoke ... even in winter months.

As for running trains by myself, I leave the smoke on and use the AC unit for smoke evacuation accordingly.

@BobbyD posted:

Doubt everyone will be happy as it appears there are 2 distinct camps. It was mentioned about candles, what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners? How do they get the scent out? Have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day, went to a restaurant with a group and they asked for cooked on the grill hot dogs. When his arrived with some minor charring he said it causes cancer and he avoids it. They all stared in disbelief.

Yes, that gate swings both ways.  I used to be a 2 pack a day smoker.  I was annoyed when overweight people would look down at me or comment on my smoking habit.   Now I'm 50 pounds heavier without cigarettes.  Not sure if I'm any healthier as I pop multiple pills a day to help protect my heart

Are there really 2 distinct camps? Seems like the lines are blurred.  If you smoke train smoke like me, don't care, but warn or protect others that may be allegic to the scent or the burning mineral oil vapor you're putting in the air when you run your trains, aren't you just being courteous?  Seems like common sense without controversy.