How was the crowd Saturday?

Hey Scott...I too thought the Friday crowd was sparse. ETS trains was not present and the empty tables and space tells me others were as well.  I finished all my shopping by 1230pm.  I'm thinking it's time to go back to Friday and Saturday only.  BigRail 

If there is a move to shorten the show, Friday Saturday would make more sense if you really want to attract someone other than die hard fans who can take off from work and the retired community. 

Rich883 posted:

If there is a move to shorten the show, Friday Saturday would make more sense if you really want to attract someone other than die hard fans who can take off from work and the retired community. 

It won't matter. The hobby is stagnant. What we need are more bus trips setup from more areas with rooms included.

How about having Saturday and Sunday.   So people with jobs can get there. This is the only show I know of that is not on a Sunday.

I have this feeling lots of the "how busy was it" (not just this thread for Saturday, but in general) questions are stuck in the past by comparing to what used to be "busy" numbers maybe 15-20 years ago.

While it would be nice, I don't think we are ever returning to that for any day (Thursday/Friday/Saturday, if it were to be shifted back to only 2 days, etc....).

Using the the parking lot between Orange and the old "Yellow" grandstand building as a crowd estimator, I'd guess Friday was the busiest day, though I think parking spots could probably have been had easily at any point in that general area. 

I remember when you risked not finding a spot to park your car if you had left the site mid-day for something like a bank or food run.  Certainly not so anymore.  Also when it was so crowded that the EDTCA had people manning the site before the meet opened trying to direct cars to park in an orderly fashion (I used to try to be on site at least an hour prior to the open to get a decent spot - no longer necessary).  I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen anymore (or maybe I'm mistaken there and it's just because I use a different gate now that I used to back then?).

-Dave

I am not suggesting a big difference with all day Saturday, but 2 things are clear, one attendance is down, and second the as the show shrinks you can see everything in the first 2 days if not less.  All the events and meetings are held the first two days, Saturday has no events, empty tables and table holders running out the door packing up.

Trade shows around the world deal with lower attendance by shortening shows so the days you do run are full. More people naturally have the weekend off from work, and if Saturday was the caliber of the current Friday, you would have a more engaging and attended day.

We got there about noon. Told to get the the cheaper entrance deal. Had to walk to purple hall costing more time, as show ended in two hours. Thought it was a thin crowd, vendors already packing up and napping in their seats. Felt a few dealer/vendors need to show more interest to inquiring customers. Yes, last year had to take Fri. off. I agree with a Fri. start, conclude Sun. A show should encourage new interested participants. Having closed access is not a way to do this. Kudos to Butch of Charles Ro. He wasn't napping and was more than willing to inform me of the new technical aspects. A fellow from Lionel was also good and patient explaining the improved sensor track for use on tubular, Ross etc. Also The guys at Ross were cool. Met Mr. Muffins, a nice gent. Again, we should do more out reach to encourage growth. JMHO

If only the older members would quit dying, more people would attend...

Personally, I'd like to see Thursday/Friday or Friday/Saturday.  Considering the distance that many vendors and members travel, extending the meet to Sunday would create a lot of inconvenience.

We all have vacation days from our jobs - use one or two of them once or twice a year!  We Americans get less vacation time than anyone else in the developed world, and even then many of us leave days on the table.  Why?  (I am still working with limited vacation time, and have been self-employed where there was a direct loss of revenue when I took a day off, but I schedule and take the time off to enjoy life.) 

Make it a priority, request the days off in advance, and USE THEM.

Scott,

It was very lightly attended in the dealer halls for Saturday.  I also noticed the empty tables in the Orange hall as well.   Some of the tables did not open until about 1 hour after opening.    I still had a good time with my son going around and looking at the layouts.   Not sure if the public had made an impact for Saturday.   

clem k posted:

How about having Saturday and Sunday.   So people with jobs can get there. This is the only show I know of that is not on a Sunday.

The problem with having it on Saturday and Sunday is the fact that a lot of the vendors are coming from long distances to sell at the meet. Since they've already taken a few days off to get down to the fairgrounds, set up, and sell at the meet, they want to get back to work or their other commitments by Monday so they use late Saturday and into Sunday to get home and unload everything. Extending the meet into Sunday would be more stressful for them.

Personally, I feel the weather had a part to play in attendance on Thursday.   Registration has been in roughly the same range the last 3 years - April 2015 was 10,987 and October 2017 was 10,187.  I expect this meet's numbers to be in the same ballpark.   Perhaps, we're just buying less?

Attendance numbers since 2007:

York Statistics – Apr `07 Total Registrations 14,325
York Statistics – Apr `08 Total Registrations 14,567
York Statistics - Apr `09 Total Registrations 14,109
York Statistics - Apr `10 Total Registrations 13,769
York Statistics - Oct `10 Total Registrations 13,648
York Statistics - Apr `11 Total Registrations 13,521
York Statistics - Oct `11 Total Registrations 13,608
York Statistics - Apr `12 Total Registrations 13,403
York Statistics - Oct `12 Total Registrations 13,713
York Statistics –Apr ‘13 Total Registrations 12,703 (First time below 13 K)
York Statistics - Oct ‘13 Total Registrations 13,523 (Nice increase)
York Statistics – Apr 14 Total Registrations 12,225
(699 registered at the door, 80 new members to TCA)
York Statistics – Oct. ‘14 Total 12,355 (8011 members), RV‘s 157
York Statistics – Apr ‘15: Total Registrations: 10,987
York Statistics – Oct‘15 Total Registration: Advance 11,066 + Door 1007 = 12,073
York Statistics – Apr ‘16: Total Registrations: 11,319
York Statistics – Oct. ‗16 Total Registrations: 10,924
York Statistics – Apr ‗17 Total Registrations: 10,086
(Public Admissions about 600 attendees and families.)
York Statistics – Oct. „17 Total Registrations – 10,187
Public Admissions: approximately 400 attendees and families

-Greg

As a table holder in Blue, I thought there was a good amount of foot traffic until noon.  I sold more stuff this Saturday than all my previous Saturdays from the last 3-4 years combined.  Both Thursday and Friday also seemed busy, at least in the Blue Hall.

Andy

It must be remembered that the York Meet wasn’t ever meant to be an event to promote the hobby. It’s an event created by the members for the members to buy, trade and sell trains. Nothing more. It evolved into including the importer’s displays, who by the way we’re required to become members to participate.  

If the dealers and importers decide not to attend, the Meet will go on as it always has. Members buying, selling and trading trains.

The Worlds Greatest Hobby Shows are geared for promoting the hobby.  And those of us who are members of the TCA, including vendors and importers that attend, are the ones who should be promoting the TCA and the hobby.  The York Meet is the result of the interest in the hobby.  Not the catalyst.  But it could be if we do the job of enlightening the masses of how much fun this hobby is.

Its up to us to create current and future Trainiacs!!

By the way, Saturday was my biggest buying day as usual. 

Mallard4468 posted:

Make it a priority, request the days off in advance, and USE THEM.

Last year I took off Fri. to attend.  This year I needed to work Fri. and be able to buy things. They'll always be this dilemma on both sides of the table.

Traindiesel posted:

It must be remembered that the York Meet wasn’t ever meant to be an event to promote the hobby. It’s an event created by the members for the members to buy, trade and sell trains. Nothing more. It evolved into including the importer’s displays, who by the way we’re required to become members to participate.  

Exactly. That's why I dropped out of the TCA and no longer attend York.

Saturday crowd ??? 

What crowd ???

Unfortunately it's time for some changes - kills me to say that

I thought the Show was reasonably well attended. The numbers historically have been a little lower in April than October, and I suspect that was the case again this time. In the Orange Hall there were 183 vendors, down from 194 vendors in October. However, when I went back and checked prior years, 183 was a very good number, even compared to historical October numbers.

There was a good level of traffic in the Orange Hall on Thursday and Friday, and the Blue and Silver Halls were packed on Friday. There was good traffic in the Purple Hall as well on Friday, despite the fact that the poor folks there were freezing their butts off, as there is no heat in that hall. Disappointing that the organizers did not provide some space heaters, or apprise the dealers there to pack some, as it was clear well in advance of the Show that it was going to be very cold. I can't speak to Saturday, as I left early Saturday morning.

I for one would leave the current format pretty much as is. I like scouting things out on Thursday and making most of my purchases Friday. Of course, if I find something really special on Thursday, I will purchase it, as it will probably be gone otherwise. The only thing I might change is to close the Dealer Halls an hour earlier Saturday to provide more time for them to pack up. 

Andrew DeSabatino posted:

clem k posted:

How about having Saturday and Sunday.   So people with jobs can get there. This is the only show I know of that is not on a Sunday.

The problem with having it on Saturday and Sunday is the fact that a lot of the vendors are coming from long distances to sell at the meet. Since they've already taken a few days off to get down to the fairgrounds, set up, and sell at the meet, they want to get back to work or their other commitments by Monday so they use late Saturday and into Sunday to get home and unload everything. Extending the meet into Sunday would be more stressful for them.

I didn't say extend. I'm saying if you only have 2 days make it a weekend.  Lot of customers can't get the time off, they work for a living. Some can't use just one vacation day, they have use it in 1 week increments. And lucky to get one week a year. 

I guess I'm one of the few that is fine with the Thursday opening, fewer dealers, and fewer people.

Opening for 3 days, IMO, created a spread of people across Thurs and Fri. You could finally move down the aisles in the Red and other, halls. As fewer dealers showed up, the aisles in the Red and other halls became a bit wider.

Let's face it, more and more dealers are dying of old age, can no longer travel, or they are using eBay. Believe me, this is not only York. All of the major weekly flea markets I've been going to for the past 35 years are 30-60% of what they used to be, dealer-wise. Oddly enough, the number people attending appear to be not that much fewer. In fact, I'm surprised the York attendance is as high as it is, all things considered.

The only change I would like to see would be to open the meet at 9  am on Thursday.

Forget it, it will never be in Nashville.

I vote for Nashville!  Cuts my drive in half and then to the Opry!!!  :-)

The problem with changing to another city/site is a big one: Where would you find a sufficient number of TCA volunteers from ANY other region to organize, promote, and operate a meet the size of York? Yes, there are plenty of venues av ailable elsewhere, but I seriously doubt that any other TCA division or region could possibly come up with the necessary volunteers in the number they would be needed.

If anyone reading this really thinks he or she could do it, knock yourself out and get the ball rolling. I will look forward to attending.

Greg Houser posted:

Personally, I feel the weather had a part to play in attendance on Thursday.   Registration has been in roughly the same range the last 3 years - April 2015 was 10,987 and October 2017 was 10,187.  I expect this meet's numbers to be in the same ballpark.   Perhaps, we're just buying less?

Attendance numbers since 2007:

York Statistics – Apr `07 Total Registrations 14,325
York Statistics – Apr `08 Total Registrations 14,567
York Statistics - Apr `09 Total Registrations 14,109
York Statistics - Apr `10 Total Registrations 13,769
York Statistics - Oct `10 Total Registrations 13,648
York Statistics - Apr `11 Total Registrations 13,521
York Statistics - Oct `11 Total Registrations 13,608
York Statistics - Apr `12 Total Registrations 13,403
York Statistics - Oct `12 Total Registrations 13,713
York Statistics –Apr ‘13 Total Registrations 12,703 (First time below 13 K)
York Statistics - Oct ‘13 Total Registrations 13,523 (Nice increase)
York Statistics – Apr 14 Total Registrations 12,225
(699 registered at the door, 80 new members to TCA)
York Statistics – Oct. ‘14 Total 12,355 (8011 members), RV‘s 157
York Statistics – Apr ‘15: Total Registrations: 10,987
York Statistics – Oct‘15 Total Registration: Advance 11,066 + Door 1007 = 12,073
York Statistics – Apr ‘16: Total Registrations: 11,319
York Statistics – Oct. ‗16 Total Registrations: 10,924
York Statistics – Apr ‗17 Total Registrations: 10,086
(Public Admissions about 600 attendees and families.)
York Statistics – Oct. „17 Total Registrations – 10,187
Public Admissions: approximately 400 attendees and families

-Greg

Oh boy, might last week possibly have been the first time for attendance to dip below 5 figures?

Allan Miller posted:

The problem with changing to another city/site is a big one: Where would you find a sufficient number of TCA volunteers from ANY other region to organize, promote, and operate a meet the size of York? Yes, there are plenty of venues av ailable elsewhere, but I seriously doubt that any other TCA division or region could possibly come up with the necessary volunteers in the number they would be needed.

If anyone reading this really thinks he or she could do it, knock yourself out and get the ball rolling. I will look forward to attending.

Hi Allan,

   I've been into toy trains for around 35 years. I don't expect anyone to change the location from York. Having said that, I really don't need more stuff at my age (and I do understand the social part of this doing many local shows) and I really don't have any interest in driving 3 hours each way along with the expenses of staying over. However, I don't really ever see any photos for those who might be closer or more interested than me. I thought the photo ban was lifted, but so many of these threads never seem to have any or many photos. Photos from those who attend could be the best type of advertising for an event like this, in my opinion. 

Tom 

ogaugeguy posted:

Greg Houser posted:

Personally, I feel the weather had a part to play in attendance on Thursday.   Registration has been in roughly the same range the last 3 years - April 2015 was 10,987 and October 2017 was 10,187.  I expect this meet's numbers to be in the same ballpark.   Perhaps, we're just buying less?

Attendance numbers since 2007:

York Statistics – Apr `07 Total Registrations 14,325
York Statistics – Apr `08 Total Registrations 14,567
York Statistics - Apr `09 Total Registrations 14,109
York Statistics - Apr `10 Total Registrations 13,769
York Statistics - Oct `10 Total Registrations 13,648
York Statistics - Apr `11 Total Registrations 13,521
York Statistics - Oct `11 Total Registrations 13,608
York Statistics - Apr `12 Total Registrations 13,403
York Statistics - Oct `12 Total Registrations 13,713
York Statistics –Apr ‘13 Total Registrations 12,703 (First time below 13 K)
York Statistics - Oct ‘13 Total Registrations 13,523 (Nice increase)
York Statistics – Apr 14 Total Registrations 12,225
(699 registered at the door, 80 new members to TCA)
York Statistics – Oct. ‘14 Total 12,355 (8011 members), RV‘s 157
York Statistics – Apr ‘15: Total Registrations: 10,987
York Statistics – Oct‘15 Total Registration: Advance 11,066 + Door 1007 = 12,073
York Statistics – Apr ‘16: Total Registrations: 11,319
York Statistics – Oct. ‗16 Total Registrations: 10,924
York Statistics – Apr ‗17 Total Registrations: 10,086
(Public Admissions about 600 attendees and families.)
York Statistics – Oct. „17 Total Registrations – 10,187
Public Admissions: approximately 400 attendees and families

-Greg

Oh boy, might last week possibly have been the first time for attendance to dip below 5 figures?

It's possible. The numbers have held steady for the last few Shows at slightly over 10,000 total registrations. Of course, not everyone who registers attends. I suspect the number of actual attendees may have been down a little because of the unusually cold weather. The X factor is the number of public admissions. My guess is that it will be approximately 500 attendees and families.   

Perhaps fewer days and shorter hours would concentrate attendance, sales, effort, time involved, and allow folks - vendors and prospective customers alike - to get more rest and have safer and less draining drives homeward?

Also, as a vendor in the Orange Hall, I customarily never drove home on Saturday. I gave myself that afternoon and night to have a relaxed meal at a restaurant in Lancaster, where I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express, recuperate, and relax and drive home on Sunday .

Just a thought.

FrankM,  Layout Refinements

I put it into excel, put a trend line on it.  It would be nice to know the 2018 spring numbers to see if its flattening, otherwise best trend appears downward (still a lot of people if you ask me though!).

These are the values I ended up with:

Moonson, many of the dealers & other table holders want to get home Saturday night. They don't want to pay for another night in a hotel.

eddie g posted:

Moonson, many of the dealers & other table holders want to get home Saturday night. They don't want to pay for another night in a hotel.

Certainly true, Eddie. That is why I offered my experience as simply a personal perspective in the conversation.

Allan Miller posted:

The problem with changing to another city/site is a big one: Where would you find a sufficient number of TCA volunteers from ANY other region to organize, promote, and operate a meet the size of York? Yes, there are plenty of venues av ailable elsewhere, but I seriously doubt that any other TCA division or region could possibly come up with the necessary volunteers in the number they would be needed.

The irony is that the Eastern Division's York Train meet is NOT held within the Eastern Division; York is in the Keystone Division.

ogaugeguy posted:

Greg Houser posted:

Personally, I feel the weather had a part to play in attendance on Thursday.   Registration has been in roughly the same range the last 3 years - April 2015 was 10,987 and October 2017 was 10,187.  I expect this meet's numbers to be in the same ballpark.   Perhaps, we're just buying less?

Attendance numbers since 2007:

York Statistics – Apr `07 Total Registrations 14,325
York Statistics – Apr `08 Total Registrations 14,567
York Statistics - Apr `09 Total Registrations 14,109
York Statistics - Apr `10 Total Registrations 13,769
York Statistics - Oct `10 Total Registrations 13,648
York Statistics - Apr `11 Total Registrations 13,521
York Statistics - Oct `11 Total Registrations 13,608
York Statistics - Apr `12 Total Registrations 13,403
York Statistics - Oct `12 Total Registrations 13,713
York Statistics –Apr ‘13 Total Registrations 12,703 (First time below 13 K)
York Statistics - Oct ‘13 Total Registrations 13,523 (Nice increase)
York Statistics – Apr 14 Total Registrations 12,225
(699 registered at the door, 80 new members to TCA)
York Statistics – Oct. ‘14 Total 12,355 (8011 members), RV‘s 157
York Statistics – Apr ‘15: Total Registrations: 10,987
York Statistics – Oct‘15 Total Registration: Advance 11,066 + Door 1007 = 12,073
York Statistics – Apr ‘16: Total Registrations: 11,319
York Statistics – Oct. ‗16 Total Registrations: 10,924
York Statistics – Apr ‗17 Total Registrations: 10,086
(Public Admissions about 600 attendees and families.)
York Statistics – Oct. „17 Total Registrations – 10,187
Public Admissions: approximately 400 attendees and families

-Greg

Oh boy, might last week possibly have been the first time for attendance to dip below 5 figures?

I would bet on it.

Jim

Do we have a math oriented member who can compare attendance changes with the expected changes based on an actuarial life expectancy table with some average ages plugged in? Sure it would not be exact but I believe that the results would be quite interesting.

From what I have observed, the average age is increasing and the total number of attendees is decreasing. My guess is that the “York problem” is pretty easily defined and that the decline can be identified and charted fairly accurately.

Young we are not.

What were the numbers before 07?

This is what i did in excel, values above.  Spring 2018 will help flatten it or keep the trend down or who knows -- up.  (note that ".5" is the fall value i think, i guess i should have used 's' or 'f' or something)

Friday Saturday and Sunday would help bring folks in from the public that might like what they see and join. weekday events are hard on a lot of folks. also just look at the numbers of members that have passed on in the TCA publication each time it comes out. its hard to replace them at the rate we loose them and it's bound to continue like that, I am 62 and felt like a teenager compared to those around me at York last week end. the crowd is greying at an alarming rate.

Severn posted:

This is what i did in excel, values above.  Spring 2018 will help flatten it or keep the trend down or who knows -- up.  (note that ".5" is the fall value i think, i guess i should have used 's' or 'f' or something)

 

Thanx for the chart. Pretty consistent with what most of us have been saying.

Just to be clear: "York Attendance" or "York Registrations."

I took the "registration and door" #s above, added them where applicable and used that result.  Also the curve appears to flatten the last year or two in the 10k range.   I used the best fit visually which I think was not the linear trend line but exponential.  Another one near these values and it may take a somewhat different trajectory.  Does anyone knows the spring #s yet?