I'm thinking of dabbling in 2 rail...(UPDATE--I dove in Head First)

@Pete M  I agree with you 100%.  I don't want a timesaver layout.  I just thought the video was interesting, but don't want to build it.  I want more real world switching and to have fun.  

I built the DC layout because I love how they look, but now that I look at all the layouts I posted, I like this one the best.

Right now, I don't have any 2 rail track at all.  I only have 3 rail and am about to list it all for sale.  I have also sold all my 3 rail switches except one #5.  Signature switch has an 8 week backlog, so I wanted to have a design in place so I could order my switches soon.  The signature switch #5 turnouts are about 3/4" shorter than a #5 Atlas.

I understand what you meant about removing the crossover in the lower right, but am not what you meant by taking out the 3 way switch at top. 

I can't find anything I "love" when googling layouts and I am not a designer in practicality, so I need help!  Thanks

Andy,

I do understand. I think you're at one of the stages where "analysis paralysis" can set in. 

When I think about your design, what I'm trying to do is run the switching moves in my head and see if I have enough room to do it all somewhat realistically, or where adjustments could be made.

Rather than keep showing you different layouts, I think it's more use to you to help you think about the moves. Kinda like "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. But teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat all day drinking beer with his buddies eat for life." 

So here's a way to think about the switching moves and see where any bottle necks might be in your latest version B:

If we assume there are some inbound cars on the interchange/siding and some cars at each of the industry spots, let's say we need to swap them car-for-car to keep it simple for now.

The work plan will be to pull all the industry cars first. But as the interchange track is full of inbound cars, we'll set the cars we pull from the industries out on the left end of the main for now.

After that, we'll lift all the inbound cars from the interchange siding, sort them  and spot them at the correct spots at the industries.

Both these moves will require a runaround of the cars coming from and going to the industry on the right, so we'll need to make sure we don't block ourselves from doing runaround moves when the time comes.

Once that's all done, we'll move the pulled cars we left on the main and set them out on the interchange ready to get picked up by a passing train later.

The last move will be to tie up the power at the service track.

So... the big question is can we do all that with the track plan as-is without having to resort to moving just one car each time which isn't so realistic?   

Here are some of the moves you could make to get the work done:

1. Loco leaves service track and pulls cars from lower left industry
2. Loco and cars need to get to the main to set out the cars for now
3. Loco pulls cars from right hand industry and needs to run around the cars to set them out on the main also for now
4. Loco pulls cars from top left industry and sets out on the main for now
5. Loco pulls inbound cars from the interchange and sorts them into order for the top left industry, bottom left industry and right-hand industry
6. Loco spots cars at top left and bottom left industries
7. Loco runs around cars for right hand industry
8. Loco spots cars at right-hand industry
9. Loco lifts outbound cars from main and sets out on interchange
10. Loco returns to service track.

If you run each of these moves in your head, you may find there's not enough room to do some of them allowing for the loco and all the cars it has with it. Then you can adjust the placing of turnouts, siding and runaround track lengths accordingly.

I really hope this helps!

The main limitation as I see it is the length of the mainline to be able to move the cars...I could move 1-2 cars at a time, but no more and then I would be limited to about 40" to the right side of the main and 30" to the left.  Is that how you see it?

Andy, could you draw in a freight car at each industry spot you want to have?  Just a scale 50ft rectangle will do for now if there's nothing easy in the software.

We should also figure out how many cars can be left on the main during switching, and how many can fit on the interchange.

Also I think the Dash 8 is about 18 real inches long?  Could you draw that as well.  And are those 1 real foot squares on the white backgound?

And... what # turnouts are you using in the plan drawing?

Thank you!

Pete,

Remove the tabs?  Kinda like this.  Another speaker pointing downward in a huge hole left over from a previous hack job.

Jay

Jay,

Another beautiful installation! 

Yes, I cut the tabs off all TBs to maximize best fit in the space. The second speaker idea is neat. Just have to make sure they're in phase or things get weird.  I have the T-shirt on that one...  

The 1925s will fit an just about any loco I've found. I even squeezed one into my Yoder 44 Tonner.  Yes, there were a few brass filings on the bench after. 

The 1931s will fit in larger Atlas fuel tanks with the tabs cut off. I've found I can hear more bass with it facing up through a suitably large hole cut in the chassis in my C424. But facing down they still blow the doors off any other speaker I've tried so far. As well that 1931s will fit in some brass hood Diesels with the tabs cut off and about 1mm shaved off each side.

As you know from the superb custom drive upgrade kits you made for me, I am obsessed with sound quality and will go several extra miles for another 50Hz of bass. 

Pete,

Because the one pointing downward an 8 ohm and the Tang Band is 4, I added a resistor to the TB.  All in an attempt to make sure things were okay.  Reused the friend's Tsunami and they don't like 4ohm.  Overall sound isn't bad.  Maybe not up to Pete's standards but my ears ain't all that great anyway.  My buddy thinks it sounds great.  In the end, that's all that really matters.

Jay

Jay,

That setup is great for Tsunami no doubt. And the way you fit both speakers in was ingenious. Sound is such a fickle and subjective thing, and pleasing the user is all that matters as you say.  

And however you slice it, it sure is a fun dimension to our great hobby. 

Pete,

It's a 1937 bronze Walther's.  Pulls 20 cars very easily.

Jay

OK, so a few new developments...I bought an Atlas GP35 High Nose Southern engine today from a board member...should get it in about 4-5 days.  It is 2 rail, but has TMCC, so I assume I need to take the TMCC boards out and install a Loksound decoder.  I really want a Savannah & Atlanta, but this will do for now.

OK back to the layout...Yes, the Dash 8 is 18" long including couplers.  I did what you asked and I also changed the layout a little which I think may work better...It is Version D...but I think it will give me more room on the main...I also added a foot to the layout to make it 15'x2'.  I will post it after I finalize it.

This one I think doesn't have enough leg room in the mainline to move many cars.

Yes, the squares are 1'x1' in the drawing.  Not sure which is better...Thanks

Oh yeah...I forgot, they are all #5 switches...and the sig switches are 3/4" shorter than Atlas.

Would I be better off with #4 switches over #5?  They are approximately 3" shorter than #5.

Andy, I would stick with #5s which should mean you can run the Dash 8. For sure the GP35 will work fine.

OK... here's my take on Plan B.  The red cars are outbound from their industry spots. The green cars are inbound on the interchange. The pale yellow "cars" and pale blue "locos" show places where you may need to fit the loco and various of the red or geen cars during the switching session.

You'll note that I took out the left side crossover between main and interchange. I don't think you need it. I also had to adjust the turnouts and spur lengths a bit to just fit. It's tight!  But that's O scale shelf layouts for you...  

I think you may get snookered half way though unless you move the inbound cars from the interchange to the main at the start.  As well if you could add one more car length on the main at the right side that would help as you could move all 3 cars in one go. 

Here's one way to get the work done. I bet you can think of a more efficient way.  

1. Move inbound cars from interchange to main
2. Pull A to runaround
3. Pull B and run around A
4. Pull A and B to service track
5. Shove A and B onto interchange track
6. Pull C and set out on interchange
7. Pull inbounds from main
8. Sort into order BAC left to right
9. Spot C
10. Spot B
11. Run around A
12. Spot A
13. Power to shops

Anway, I hope this approach helps you think through the moves on both plans and see what you might adjust on either. Of course it'll be easier if you're OK with moving just one car at a time, but that'll cost more Diesel fuel and overtime pay. 

Thanks Pete...clear as mud!  Just kidding...makes a lot of sense.  I am going to talk to the planning and zoning board and see if I can ascertain some more real estate.  Then I will figure out the rest.  Of course right now I only have 1 freight car in 2 rail and 2 more in transit...1 engine and one in transit.

Andy,

It may seem a bit much at first. I wanted to suggest that the possible switching moves need to be thought out as you're laying out the track plan. 

For example, in your original plan Rev B you could only fit the loco and one car on the main at the right, and the same in the engine service track.  And there wasn't room on the interchange or the main for the 3 inbound cars. 

Of course, just like my layout, this whole deal is too small to be anywhere close to realistic.   And none of this matters one jot if you're OK with moving one car at a time when switching. 

But to try and have a more realistic feel in the available space, one thing to bear in mind is the real railroads try to lay the minimum amount of track and switches to do their business efficiently and safely.    

Space permitting, you could add a 2-3 foot hinged drop down at one or both ends to extend the mainline when you are running the layout.

That's a brilliant idea Jim!  I was thinking about building it in module form anyway.  One of my buddies wants to build something too and then we can put them together to make a bigger layout.

I think I am going to order at least four #5 turnouts from Signature Switch.  Brad has an 8 week backlog right now, so I might as well get them on order.  Any preference on flex track?  I found some old Atlas 36" flex for $7 per, but not sure if I should go with Atlas or ME or something else.

roll_the_dice posted:

I think I am going to order at least four #5 turnouts from Signature Switch.  Brad has an 8 week backlog right now, so I might as well get them on order.  Any preference on flex track?  I found some old Atlas 36" flex for $7 per, but not sure if I should go with Atlas or ME or something else.

ME looks better, Atlas is MUCH more flexible.  Peco code 143 rail joiners are about the only game in town unless you can find some OLD Atlas joiners part number 6041-60. The newer ones, part number 6091 are far too loose to be worthwhile.

These:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vinta...6:gxEAAOSwsnldTw50

Not these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas...9:g:wXAAAOSwHB5eTuYI

roll_the_dice posted:

I think I am going to order at least four #5 turnouts from Signature Switch.  Brad has an 8 week backlog right now, so I might as well get them on order.  Any preference on flex track?  I found some old Atlas 36" flex for $7 per, but not sure if I should go with Atlas or ME or something else.

The layout I'm designing right now has the strong possibility of being 2-rail (it's RR-Track is using ScaleTrax with #5 and #6 turnouts). If so, I'd use ME code 148 flex track with Signature Switch turnouts.

@Jim Scorse  Thanks!  I bought some rail joiners...I found a different auction that had the old Atlas rail joiners  cheaper. 

@AGHRMatt In my switching layout I don't think any of the flex track will actually be flexed...I calculated 7 pieces needed...so I will get the ME...and signature switch turnouts.  

So who is going to Chicago and wants to look for a specific road name for me?

Got this in the mail today!  Will install later tonight or tomorrow.  Will post a video after installation.

Nice!!     I assume the seller installed the S0719 sound file for you?

Now to make sure you locate it the right way round on the loco's board, and don't bend any pins! 

I'm looking forward to the video. 

roll_the_dice posted:

Got this in the mail today!  Will install later tonight or tomorrow.  Will post a video after installation.

Here's a tip that works well for me for making connections to the adapter board.

Heat the solder pad on the board with your iron and put a bead of solder on it. Strip a small length of insulation from the wire you are going to connect, then tin the end of the wire with solder. To make the connection, just place the tinned wire on the solder bead and touch briefly with your iron. Makes a very quick and tidy connection. Prep all the pads and wires before you start connecting, and you'll have the thing connected up in no time.

I also recommend 'buzzing out' or testing the board and connections before installing the decoder. I think I describe this in detail in one of the links I posted previously.

The seller did install the sound for me.  It was an option on their website when I placed the order.  I waited until this afternoon to install everything...since the speaker was delivered today.  I think I could have done the larger speaker, maybe I will swap it out when I buy one for my next engine since it will be smaller.  

Everything works!  Sounds stopped working when I put the shell on, but I didn't have the speaker seated well into the board.  I will get a video when I come home from the grocery store...

So much to learn about DCC and all the buttons.  Report back soon.

@thor73  Thanks for the tip.  That worked well!  

Andy,

Did you mean the speaker plug wasn't well seated, or did you mean the whole speaker? It's important to make sure the speaker wires don't get shorted or you'll blow the sound section in the decoder.  If you installed the Tang Band speaker, make sure you cover any small areas of exposed wire, PCB or solder on the back of it with suitable tape before laying it on a metal surface.

No I meant where the plug was seated into the board that was already on the engine.  I cut off the wires from the old speaker soldered those to the Tang Band.  The speaker wires had a plug on the end that went to the board.

Will do the video in the morning...I did not have time to do one tonight.

OK great! I was worrying...  

Looking forward to the video tomorrow. 

OK here is the video...I did not set up a programming track yet...this is just out of the box installed running on default Loco #3.

Sounds great.  A lot of nuance in those sounds you don't hear from other systems. ESU is certainly top tier.

Andy,

I think you need to change the title of this thread.  You are no longer "thinking" of dabbling in 2 rail.  You are dabbling in (if not down right plunging into) 2 rail

@TexasSP  Thanks!  I agree...You don't get these sounds out of Lionel or MTH (they sound good, but different).  Sounds so much better than I imagined...the engine starting up and shutting down are my favorite.

@John Sethian  I thought about that!  I do think this thread will be good for future dabblers.  I am glad I am taking the plunge.  I have sold off a lot of my 3 rail stuff to fund this so far.  I have another engine on the way and will get the switching layout running this summer.  I am also about to convert some of my 3 rail freight cars that are scale and that I like...

This is a great thread. Lots of great information from different people and different angles. You had good info going in, and pardon the pun, rolled the dice, and moved forward. I think you've made good informed choices. I think anyone could follow this thread and make a good and informed choice for a foray into 2 rail O.

Andy, that's pretty darned good for your first dabble! Great work. 

As others have said, this is great thread. It's one of the best things about this hobby when we all help each other to have more fun, and we all learn along the way.    

When you're ready we can work on refining the starting and slow running, tuning  the sounds etc.  I'm finding the LS5 DCC decoders can do a pretty good job of smoothing out the dual motor drive.

Pete

Sounds great, Andy! 

And, I have a friend with a two-motor GP7 … he smoothed out the motor performance. Smooth and slow. Just as Pete stated.

Ain't this stuff fun? I've been holding off, waiting and wishing for Atlas to announce new SW and MP15 switchers. Been converting rolling stock and stuff. I think I'll just grab an engine like you. Can't wait anymore.

And, yes … very informative topic thread going on here. Thanks, folks.  I bet that there are lots of 3-rail or HO modelers thinking of dabbling ...

Right on Jim!

Below is a clip of two LS5DCC decoders in consist, one in an Atlas C424 dual-motor drive chassis and other in a C&LS RS-11 with a coreless gearhead drive. About as different as two O scale drives can be!  The Atlas is a bit jerky off the line, but above about speed 5 it cleans up nicely. 

To be fair to any decoder, trying to manage 2 motors smoothly at once is a challenge, but LS5 DCC has some new motor settings that really seem to help.

Pete  

Thanks guys...I am so glad I decided to dabble (dive in head first) as @CNJ Jim so eloquently posted.

I hope this thread helps people in the future, but I am not done learning by a LONG shot!  Thanks to everyone who has contributed their knowledge so selflessly!  I think that is what this hobby is all about!

OK, so I have an Atlas GP35 HN on the way to me that is TMCC.  Obviously I need to take out the TMCC boards and put in the Loksound board...same board I bought last time, but which sound should I get downloaded?  I was on ESU's website this morning looking and listened to

EMD 16-567E4 T   It is the 4th soundclip on this page.

I think that is the right sound clip.  Can someone confirm or have a better choice?  @Pete M, I think this is the same engine (different road name) as you show on page one...the Central of Georgia.  What sound file are you using in it?

Once I receive the engine, I am going to need help on what wires go where?  Now I will be delving into new territory.

Andy, that's great!   A good size of loco for a local switching job.

Yes the sound file you reference, S0773, is good for a GP35 as it was recorded from one.     So get that loaded by the seller. As your 2-rail roster grows (I'm predicting it will!) you may want to get a LokProgrammer and the LP software from ESU as others have mentioned above. Then you can load sound files yourself, and programming decoders will get a lot easier. 

My GP35 installs were done a couple of years ago so they have the earlier Loksound Select. It's the same sound file, but yours will sound better as the LS5DCCs have much higher sound resolution.

Once you have the loco and decoder in hand we can go through removing the TMCC components, wiring the LS5CCC's board and the motor control settings to make it run as nice as possible. 

Pete

Thanks Pete, I thought that was the right sound file, but wanted to make sure...I should have the engine Friday (according to tracking).  I will probably get the LokProgrammer fairly soon.  I have my eye on a smaller switcher as well...that I know I will want sound in.  I watched a video on the LokProgrammer and it does look like a useful tool especially for programming the CVs.

Oh, I updated the thread Title...since I dove in!