I'm thinking of dabbling in 2 rail...(UPDATE--I dove in Head First)

Most newer stuff comes with DCC decoders.    MTH decoders however have been known at the local club to not be totally DCC compliant.     Atlas and Sunset 3rd Rail use standard decoders.     Lionel makes no 2 rail.   

Basically O scale 2 rail works identically to HO and N.    If  you can do that, you can do, just bigger stuff but still 12 volts.   Most of it draws a little more amperage than HO and I assume N scale.

As for DCC systems, NCE is very common and popular as is Digitrax.     There is also Lenz and EasyDCC that are fairly common.    MRC makes a system but it does not have as good reputation as the above, it seems to be more of a low-end system.   All have radio throttles except Lenz.    However the company that makes EasyDCC, CVP, makes a radio throttle system for Lenz.    I have not seen any modelers in my area use DCS with DCC decoders.   

You can use any mfg's decoders with any control system, that is the neat thing about standard signals.    Installing your own decoders is very easy if  you are a little handy and can solder some small wires.    There are some companies that just make sound/motor decoders, and no control system such as Soundtraxx and QSI.   

My suggestion if  you want to use DCC is to select a system that some other modelers in your area use.    That way you can have some one handy to ask some questions when you are getting started.     There are also online forums for all the major control systems.

In Older steamers, you can find lots and lots of really neat brass stuff that  you can install decoders in.    So there is much more ability to follow a specific prototype more closely.

I have NCE Powercab controllers for my On30 DCC locos and thoroughly recommend them. 

I use NCE, as does our club. It is very user friendly. Their products are well designed and well made. Their customer service is top notch.

Most DCC decoders have the ability to use either DCC or straight DC. Known as dual-mode decoders.

By all means, stay away from a proprietary system like DCS, unless you'll only run at home. Compatibility with DCC is definitely an issue.

A layout will have a pair of bus wires, 12-14 gauge dependent on size. Add feeders, 22-24 gauge, to EVERY section of track. A lot of 2 railers will use 40" flexible sections.

DCC systems use AC power on the track. On-board decoders convert it to DC to the motors.

In addition to NCE's popularity … I've found the people in their office to be friendly and helpful. I've had their systems since DCC was just starting to get popular in HO.

And, concerning DCC dual mode decoders … you will experience much better motor control than 3-rail, even in simple DC mode. 

Have fun.

You know what else comes in 2 rail? 

Clockwork O

And you don't need silly decoding electronics to run it... Why you don't need electricity at all! 

I'm in the DMZ between 3-rail and 2-rail. I run scale-wheeled equipment at my hi-rail club using MTH engines set to 3-rail mode under DCS. However, I also ran a demonstrator on a 2-rail layout at a train show a few years ago under NCE DCC. It went into the system right away without incident and ran flawlessly for hours. When I build my home layout, I still don't know if I'm buliding 2-rail or 3-rail/2-rail hybrid.

I'm the other guy here. I run nothing but MTH DCS. (I do have some TMCC, and DCC in boxes)

I gave up on DCC. It's good to see that they finally are moving forward. It just took way too long. Thank goodness for some programs to finally help it along. It has great capabilities. If you settle on a brand it will be easier. Each one has limitations though. Most of the older decoders struggled with power handling. Many didn't have sound or smoke capability. You had to pair different brands together inside an engine. Some needed their own programmers, and/or a degree to use them. Cheap decoders failed. Expensive ones were from other countries.

TMCC is just like DCC. You just had to memorize all the programming to exploit all of the features. I was always surprised that the two wouldn't work together.

So if you want RTR engines, there's a few choices. MTH engines run on DCS, DC, and DCC.

Atlas (if you can get them), 3rd Rail, and brass?, run DCC or DC only.

Thanks for the great responses! Unfortunately, the only club in town is HO and N scale.  No O scalers that I am aware of...I think there is an O scale 2 rail show in Atlanta next weekend.  I am only 4 hours away and my kids live up there...so I may go to get my feet wet and ask tons of questions.

I have been looking at NCE equipment and have seen some for HO/N and some for O.  Looks like the main difference are the AMPs 2 vs 5 or 10?  How many AMPs do the engines draw?  Also looks like DigiTrax starter kit are 4-8 AMPs and can run HO/N and O?

I do love the fact that the decoder is a decoder and either system will work with it.  Interesting concept.  

Also cool 3 rail MTH can run in 2 rail mode...I assume the pickup wheels come off for this?

You really want to order the 2 rail version in MTH. I have converted many diesels and it takes extra work.

So are you diesel or steam? with smoke? and sound?

Amp draw depends on smoke use. I'd guess at 1 amp without and 2 amps with smoke. 

I had a Digitrax system and liked it. The NCE is very good and I used their decoders at the end. I think it was their #408. It just didn't have sound. So I pigi-backed a Locksound inside with it.

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Engineer-Joe posted:

You really want to order the 2 rail version in MTH. I have converted many diesels and it takes extra work.

So are you diesel or steam? with smoke? and sound?

Amp draw depends on smoke use. I'd guess at 1 amp without and 2 amps with smoke. 

I had a Digitrax system and liked it. The NCE is very good and I used their decoders at the end. I think it was their #408. It just didn't have sound. So I pigi-backed a Locksound inside with it.

I like steam mainly, but am not prejudice against a good looking diesel engine.  I do like smoke...sound as in a whistle or horn?  Yes...I like them.  Crew talk on Lionel...no not a big fan.

If I want to dabble...I could do without smoke or sound.  Would the smaller 2 AMP system work with one engine...then I could add a power booster or something if I decide to do more than dabble?

CBQer posted:

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Thanks...I always felt the same about Digitrax.  Makes sense too about pulling more cars and drawing more amps.  So you use the 2 AMP system on the switching system?

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Touché...but dabbling to me is getting my feet wet to see if I like it more than 3 rail...then I either do both or one or the other...

If you are just starting out give battery R/C a close look at. 

I run 2 rail DC, 2 rail PS-2/3  and 3 rail PS 2/3, 3 rail conventional, then got a pair of DCS  TIU's for a herd of MTH locos but then  I picked up a battery R/C. 

Paradigm shift !    Wish I did R/C before anything else.  

R/C is available with and with out sound,  same with lighting.  Robert Buck is the go to person for many of us.  His Piko installations are neat and clean.

R/C units run $99.00 to $275.  Battery, charger, installation additional.

Robert is in York not far from the fairgrounds.  717-741-3060

I'm happy with DCS. I like modern DCC stuff. If I started right now I would also look at battery (dead rail). I'm surprised it hasn't grown bigger. I have to assume it's from lack of standards and interop. Smaller brands and separate tech?

I did look years back and didn't like the state of battery tech. They didn't last long both charge and life overall.

I run large consists and it was a matter of economy (usually is for most of us). Maybe if I only ran steam and single engines it would be different. Depending on rails for power is a pain. Large consists make it more economical. Hopefully future sound cars and features to exploit this more very soon in O scale?

I saved an old MRC basic DCC system and it will run one DCC engine on my bench.

Andy,

Definitely you should give 2 rail a try!  

My $0.02 worth is that if you just want to try 2-rail fpr now, then DCC is likely cheaper and easier than battery R/C just as a start. You won't have to do custom work on the loco(s) at first. You could look for a used entry-level NCE system as probably the most user-friendly starting point.

You could get a used 2-rail loco with factory DCC and sound such as Atlas or Sunset 3rd Rail and a few freight cars, or convert a few 3-rail ones if you have some scale 3-rail cars on hand.  Add some used Atlas flex or sectional track and a few turnouts and you can make a nice switching layout to see how you feel about 2-rail in practice.

If you do get hooked, you could add battery power but keep the DCC decoders to get the best of both worlds - best sounds and best running.  Or sell off the DCC system again and go battery R/C. That may depend on what matters most to you, such as the most realistic sound and lighting effects, 100% reliable running without needing track wiring, most realistic operating session experience for engineers and conductors, etc.

I've been using DCC for 25 years and seem to have it working quite well for my needs finally. 

But if I was starting out now I think I would go battery power but with DCC control to get the best of everything.

In case it's of interest, here are a few clips of my modern-era shortline with DCC and ProtoThrottle. The PT is a wireless handheld but I put it in a cradle when shooting video:

You can still find used Atlas SW8/9/1200, GP35s, MP15DCs with DCC and sound used but they are in demand.

More clips of 2-rail DCC switching ops here:

https://www.youtube.com/playli...pWGXAKZmSQ1c-zvvdOnz

Peter, the ProtoThrottle is impressive.  I can't think of any other controller that actually simulates a locomotive control stand.  Sure beats all the yadda-yadda about using a smart phone as a controller. 

Thanks for the demonstration.

Rusty

“Do or do not.  There is no dabble!”

Pete M posted:

In case it's of interest, here are a few clips of my modern-era shortline with DCC and ProtoThrottle. The PT is a wireless handheld but I put it in a cradle when shooting video:

I used a ProtoThrottle on someone's HO narrow industrial switching layout. It really was cool. It was addicting. Even with the Kadee uncoupling magnets in the rails.

They cost some bucks … but, very tempting.

Pete M posted:

Andy,

Definitely you should give 2 rail a try!  

...You could get a used 2-rail loco with factory DCC and sound such as Atlas or Sunset 3rd Rail and a few freight cars, or convert a few 3-rail ones if you have some scale 3-rail cars on hand.  Add some used Atlas flex or sectional track and a few turnouts and you can make a nice switching layout to see how you feel about 2-rail in practice.

...You can still find used Atlas SW8/9/1200, GP35s, MP15DCs with DCC and sound used but they are in demand.

 

More clips of 2-rail DCC switching ops here:

https://www.youtube.com/playli...pWGXAKZmSQ1c-zvvdOnz

Thanks for the videos Joe and Pete and all the thoughts.  It's been very helpful and not as daunting as I thought years ago when DCC started.

I think Pete nailed what I am thinking of doing...I will be on the lookout for a used DCC engine and convert a few of my scale 3 rail cars over to 2 rail.  Get a few switches and a nice little switching layout. 

The PT is very impressive!  Thanks for showing it.

I assume to make my 3 rail freight cars 2 rail, I need to change the wheelsets and change the couplers?

I am definitely going to the 2 rail o Scale swap meet in Atlanta next weekend!

You're welcome Andy! 

You'll get inspiration and ideas from the show even if you don't find what you need right away. As well there's some good 2R items on here in the For Sale or Trade forum, plus ebay of course and there's an Oscale Yardsale group on Groups.io which is all 2-rail.   

Yes, for scale 3-rail cars, you need to swap out couplers for Kadees (my preference) or similar (check out Protocraft if you want true scale and working cut levers), and usually the complete trucks or sometimes just the wheelsets.  There are several good threads on here about conversions.

And thanks to Jim and Rusty for the PT comments also. I'm having so much fun with DCC, sound and PT these days I can't help but encourage others. I've become an insufferable bore on the topic.

Of course PT works in any scale, but the mass of O scale makes it even better imho. No doubt it's a bit of a niche product, but for Diesel ops with 2-person crews it can be addictive.  

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Jack:

    Model railroading is like trying to eat just one salted peanut. And you know how that goes.

Andy:

  My locomotives are the "-2" models from MTH with scale wheels and fixed pilots. The GE Hybrid in the videos is equipped with Protosound 3, which runs under DCS or DCC as was the case in the videos. In conventional mode, they'll run on AC or DC current, but under DC you don't get the horn, bell, and other sounds.

CBQer posted:

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Dick---Just reread your post.  You are using a 2AMP NCE system?  Do your engines have lights, sound, or smoke?  I assume you are running 1 engine at a time?  Also, if this will work and I decided to move forward and wanted more AMPs, I think I read I could buy a smart booster to upgrade the AMPs to run more loco's and accessories?  Thanks

AGHRMatt posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Jack:

    Model railroading is like trying to eat just one salted peanut. And you know how that goes.

Andy:

  My locomotives are the "-2" models from MTH with scale wheels and fixed pilots. The GE Hybrid in the videos is equipped with Protosound 3, which runs under DCS or DCC as was the case in the videos. In conventional mode, they'll run on AC or DC current, but under DC you don't get the horn, bell, and other sounds.

Thanks Matt...Interesting.  hmmm I like the idea of getting an engine that can run on either until I decide which way I will ultimately go.  Great info!

I have some Lima 2 rail O scale from Italy, and also have recently bought a couple of 2 rail Atlas switchers ( these are the smaller ones about 5" long ) I have both passenger cars by Lima ( and for the 70's ( when I got them ) there pretty well detailed inside 

I also have some 4 wheels total freight cars, that I will use behind the switchers 

I have more than enough track to do 2 loops, My curve track is 24" radius ( so 48" loop ) and I have over 30 pieces of 10" straight track. All track is by Atlas, I also have two right hand and two left hand. I hope to make like a 5' x 8' second level for these trains. I'll continue running them conventional Thou. 

Definitely go for 2-rail. I did after starting in 3. You don’t get these kinds of sounds from MTH or Lionel...

catnap posted:

Definitely go for 2-rail. I did after starting in 3. You don’t get these kinds of sounds from MTH or Lionel...

Sounds awesome...who made the engine and what soundboard are you running?

roll_the_dice posted:

Thanks for the great responses! Unfortunately, the only club in town is HO and N scale.  No O scalers that I am aware of...I think there is an O scale 2 rail show in Atlanta next weekend.  I am only 4 hours away and my kids live up there...so I may go to get my feet wet and ask tons of questions.

I have been looking at NCE equipment and have seen some for HO/N and some for O.  Looks like the main difference are the AMPs 2 vs 5 or 10?  How many AMPs do the engines draw?  Also looks like DigiTrax starter kit are 4-8 AMPs and can run HO/N and O?

I do love the fact that the decoder is a decoder and either system will work with it.  Interesting concept.  

Also cool 3 rail MTH can run in 2 rail mode...I assume the pickup wheels come off for this?

Hi Andy,

I've had a fair amount of experience with NCE DCC in N-scale.  Also a little bit with Digitrax.  I like the NCE system better, as I think it is more intuitive, more user-friendly.

If you are thinking about an NCE system, and want it for O scale, then you will want to get the 10 amp system.  While the smaller amp systems might run one or two O-scale locomotives, you will find yourself running short on power very quickly.  Actually, if memory serves, the only difference between the systems is the power supply (i.e., the "Brick").  Outside of that, the rest of the equipment is all the same, no matter what scale you're using.

Also, if your HO/N scale club runs NCE, so much the better.  They could definitely help you with everything you need to know while you are getting up to speed on DCC.  Like I say, it doesn't matter what scale you are running, because outside of the power supply it's all the same to the DCC systems.

No matter what DCC system you end up with, it can run virtually anybody else's decoder.  We can thank the NMRA for establishing standards and recommended practices early on in the DCC development game.

Hope this helps. 

Here's some advice - repeated from the 3-rail forum.

Start simple.  It appears you like N&W.  Find a 2-rail "J" like the one in my photo below.  It has no electronics, and chances are that the flywheel is out of balance - but, for under $400 (and often around $250) it is an unbeatable bargain.    Run it on your new two rail loop without fancy stuff.  Plenty of room in boiler and tender to add NCE or DCS or any other popular alphabet soup deal.  You can decide after you decide on keeping it.

Something smaller?  Williams made a PRR B6 switcher in 2-rail, and now they are under $200.  Pure bargain territory - I traded my Gem version even for one of these.  Less detail, but much better built, and runs like a watch.  I will spare you the photo.

I am not a great Williams fan - my big deal is prewar Lobaugh - but I am suggesting value for $.  Unbeatable.  Opinion.

I started in 3-rail, using conventional control.  I then switched to TMCC and DCS command control.

I had always thought about how great it would be to go to BPRC (Battery Powered, Remote Control) and 6 or so years ago started converting engines to run using a Deltang transmitters and receivers, and 9.6v 2000Mah NiMh or 11.1v 2200Mah LiPo batteries.

After converting all most 20 engines I can say I've never thought about going back to anything that uses wiring (and I was an electronics mechanic for the Navy).

Presently I run BPRC engines that are still using 3-rail wheels, and all my rolling stock is still 3-rail.  I'm running on 2-rail, code 148 track made by Micro-Engineering (flextrack), Atlas (curved sections), and Signature Switch (turnouts custom-built for my 3-rail wheels).

I have no sound or smoke, didn't like it much when I was running command control.  The trains make plenty of sound on their own going around the layout.

If I had listened to some of the folks here I would have saved a ton of $$$ and started in 2-rail instead of going 3-rail and converting over.  I have a pile of electronics that I pulled out of these engines.

I still clean the track, but maybe once per year.  NO WIRING!!!  I get approx. 2.5 hours of run time on a charge and can get down to a crawl.  When 1 engine needs recharging I pull into the engine facility and swap it with a freshly charged engine.  Hook up the charger that charges at 1amp/hr, so 2 to 2.5hrs to recharge.

Smallest steamer I have is a MTH RailKing Imperial USRA 0-6-0, the largest is my Williams/Samhongsa brass N&W 4-8-4 Class "J", both run fine under BPRC.

@bob2  Thanks for the reply here and on the 3rd rail side.  I am on the lookout for something I can run around the loop and try and decide what I want to do.  Going to the 2 rail train show in Atlanta next Saturday so that should help clear the waters of seeing and hearing.

@Bob Delbridge  Great info...I will look into it.  All new to me.  I didn't even know BPRC existed until this thread!  I will google it and see what I can find.

roll_the_dice posted:
Sounds awesome...who made the engine and what soundboard are you running?

Thanks. It’s an Atlas SD40 that was originally a 3-rail un-powered locomotive that I converted to 2-rail.

I used an ESU LokSound XL decoder with 2 speakers, 1 in the fuel tank and another mounted on the frame. I find ESU to have the most authentic-sounding decoders in DCC.

Where is the battery in a BPRC system ?

Is there a ready to run battery engine made or do you have to always do a conversion of some sort?  thanks

catnap posted:

roll_the_dice posted:
Sounds awesome...who made the engine and what soundboard are you running?

Thanks. It’s an Atlas SD40 that was originally a 3-rail un-powered locomotive that I converted to 2-rail.

I used and ESU LokSound XL decoder with 2 speakers, 1 in the fuel tank and another mounted on the frame. I find ESU to have the most authentic-sounding decoders in DCC.

Thanks!  Would you recommend buy a 2 rail switcher or something in DC and running it around a loop of track and if I like it add a decoder and NCE or something similar?  If I buy a non DCC engine and run it conventionally would my old MRC dual transformer from my HO days run the engine conventionally with no problems?  Also what track system...Atlas?

Anyone have an engine they want to sell cheap to get me into 2 rail?

I am getting excited.

roll_the_dice posted:

CBQer posted:

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Dick---Just reread your post.  You are using a 2AMP NCE system?  Do your engines have lights, sound, or smoke?  I assume you are running 1 engine at a time?  Also, if this will work and I decided to move forward and wanted more AMPs, I think I read I could buy a smart booster to upgrade the AMPs to run more loco's and accessories?  Thanks

I'd like to bump up Andy's question for anyone that knows.

Folks are using NCE's 2 amp PowerCab system with an O scale engine? With sound? You don't max it out, with its lower voltage output? My friend has an Atlas GP7 with its original QSI system … sound and the two motors was drawing significant amps.

I was wondering if I could run a single Atlas SW or MP switcher, with a couple of cars, with a 2A PowerCab.

Thanks

FWIW I've been using "HO-sized/current capability" Loksound Select HO and now 5DCC HO decoders in Atlas 2 rail SW9s, MP15DCs and dual-motor drives for many years with no issues.

The max continuous current draw at wheel-slip is about 1A for the single-motored drives and 1.3A for the dual-motor drives.  That's as measured on a RRAmpMeter and doesn't allow for starting current spikes etc.

However, there are a few important notes:

• My max train length per loco is 15 x 1lb cars, and I have no grades. But I do have some 36" radius curves in hidden areas.
• All locos are weighted such that they always reach wheel slip before stalling.
• The Atlas dual-motor drives have the motors wired in series. Better slow running but eaiser for one truck to spin the wheels, stopping the loco.  
• I use 3M heat transfer tape to mount the decoders to the diecast chassis and I allow air space around the deocder.
• I enable the "motor protection" feature in the decoder where available.
• I use speakers well matched to the impedance and power handling of the decoder's amp.

So, in theory, I think it ought to be possible to run one Atlas 2-rail loco on a 2A booster.  

If you try to run an O scale engine at 12 volts, it's going to draw more amps I believe. You should run at 18 volts.

If the system won't switch to higher voltage, I'd say it's not made for larger scales. You'd have to rid the extra heat from higher amp draws, no?

I'm sure I'll hear from some posters now!

I run my DCS G scale at 21 volts at the board. I can run 5 or 6 engines with smoke on without issues. The amp draw stays very low for all that pulling power. I have a pretty serious grade outside in the backyard. I like to pull 50 cars.