I'm thinking of dabbling in 2 rail...(UPDATE--I dove in Head First)

roll_the_dice posted:

Thanks @AGHRMatt ... I have some newer MTH cars that have the pads and Iam compiling a list of items I need to convert them.  Do you buy the scale trucks or just change out the wheelsets?

It depends. On my Centerbeam cars, I changed out the trucks from the MTH 3-rail to Weaver plastic trucks with Intermountain 33" steel wheels. On a pair of MTH gondolas, I switched the trucks out for MTH 2-rail trucks which gave the cars the correct ride height, then installed Kadee 740 couplers. On another car, I used the MTH hi-rail trucks with Intermountain wheels. It really depended on what I had in the parts bin at the time and which would be easier for the particular situation. Replacement trucks can get expensive, but the new MTH trucks are a pain to disassemble/reassemble. I'm looking at the newer Atlas 2-rail trucks which have the adapter plug for use with MTH cars. I have a project in the pipe -- converting two strings of MTH Gunderson cars to 2-rail. For now, each string is a massive "transition car" with a Kadee on one end of the string and the hi-rail coupler on the other with the hi-rail wheels still in place since I run them at the club (like I said, I'm operating in both worlds right now).

It’s easy to convert some MTH and Lionel rolling stock to 2-rail. A good example is the Lionel PS-2 2 bay covered hopper. It has excellent detail and is pretty light.

I used Atlas 70T roller bearing trucks and Kadee 743’s to do this conversion.

Great job Catnap! I agree Lionel makes a lot of really nice rolling stock that makes for great 2 rail conversions.

@Pete M  Thanks!  I appreciate your thoughts.  I "think" I hae taked myself into getting the ESU DCC system...I like the price with the amount of AMPs I will get, plus I like that wifi is all they offer (I think).  The only way I will buy a decoder is if it is already in an engine.  So if I buy one, I will definitely get advice here.  You guys have given me great advice so far.

I have pretty much decided I am coming over to the 2 rail side and will be selling my 3 rail stuff that won't convert overor I won't need...Legacy 990, a couple of steam engines, etc.

I have a 180w Lionel brick...will that be useful on the 2 rail side?

Also, what is your guys prefered Kadee couplers or does it depend on the car you are converting?

@AGHRMatt @catnap I only have maybe 10-12 Scale freight cars...a few MTH, the rest Lionel.  Once I get home, I will check to see what they look like in terms of mounting pads.  I know the 2 Premier MTH I have have them.  They are both single dome tank cars.  There is the Lionel Central of Georgia caboose (6-27657) I will want to convert over...so I looked at Atlas scale couplers with pickups for wiring the lighting and I assume the smoke unit will still work also.

Andy, as long as you're 100% sure the MCII throttle that comes with the ESU CabControl is running Andoid 6.x not 4.x as discussed, then you should find it works great. And yes, it's a WiFi throttle only. 

This way, you should be able to run any loco you buy that already has a DCC decoder in it, regardless of current draw. And you can probably find an older Weaver loco with a Pittman motor for a lot cheaper than a modern Atlas.

I'm not sure about the Lionel brick for 2-rail. The CabControl comes with the power supply, command station with booster and Wi-Fi inside, and one MCII throttle. Later you can add more ESU 7A boosters if needed, and they come with power supplies also.

Kadees come in "old" and "new" as well, like Atlas track. Old are in the 8xx series and have exposed jaw springs and are a bit less realistic-looking. The jaw springs are known to fly off during ops occasionally and you can never find them right away. They fly off so fast that they time travel into the future, so you will usually find them in the first place you looked, but only about a week later.  

But they work better on tight radii and are a bit easier to uncouple by hand with skewer etc.

The New are in the 7xx series. They look more realistic and the jaw spring is hidden, so they just work 100% of the time. However they don't have such a wide gathering angle as the Old, so not as reliable coupling under about 40" radius. 

804 and 805 are the "standard" old Kadee and 740 and 745 for the new. There are other versions with over and under shanks, longer reach, and short ones for P&D F Units.

The best combo for brass locos is metal coupler in a plastic box for insulation in case the brass shell is "live". Metal coupler in a metal box is good for mounting on plastic.

Hi there,

I'm a little late to the discussion. I'm using NCE 10 amp and have been for 10 years or more. It was easy to install and has worked flawlessly. This is for a 200 foot double track mainline with a long storage loop as well in a 24x26 space. I run some MTH engines as well as many others.

I keep the full variety of Kadee couplers on hand, old and new.

I also switched from 3 rail to 2 rail and it has been a totally new level of satisfaction.

I have a 10 amp NCE DCC system now with 4 10 amp boosters.  The first ones were powered by old fashioned iron core 180W transformers purchased from Tony’s Train Exchange (no longer offered).  For the newest booster install I purchased a second hand  Lionel 180W "brick" on eBay at a very nice price - works great.  Whatever DCC system you go for I would strongly encourage you not to rule out installing your own decoders later on as you gain experience - it is not hard at all.  Limiting your roster to only those locomotives with factory installed decoders unnecessarily narrows your field of play and in many cases comes at added cost.  

So I went to the train show yesterday!  Had a blast...I did not really buy much...no engine and no DCC system.  I almost bought a Central Locomotive Works engine, but just couldn't pull the trigger.  It had TCS DCC with WOW sound.  Sounded good, ran good, just was unsure.  I kind of regret it now.  It was over my starter engine budget by about $50 and the guy wouldn't budge on price.  Oh well...live and learn.  I will think about it and I am sure if I want it, I can find the seller.

The best part of the show were the people.  I met some GREAT people.  I did meet someone from Savannah, so we are going to get together and run some trains on his layout.  He doesn't have DCC (yet), but one of the things we talked about was trying to start on O scale 2 rail club in Savannah!  He said he knew of 1 or 2 more people in the area.   

I went in this as a fact finding mission and found out lots from you guys coupled (kadee) with the people I met at the show...I feel I have a better understanding of what I am looking for...and want to do.

I met @Brother_Love, @atlpete, and @luvindemtrains to name a few.  Thanks for the hospitality guys and I look forward to your next show. 

@Pete M  Can you point me to the information you have seen about what ESU android version is out there?  I emailed a vendor and they said the latest version is 4.2.5.  I could not find any information on ESU's website or when I tried to google it...and I couldn't find an email address for ESU on their website..which actually kind of concerns me for support.

Andy, there's some mystery about this. Here's a thread about the new MCII throttle. It has better processor and memory and runs Android 6.x.

 https://www.google.ca/url?q=ht...E0Sj453Z-yemFXru3JG9

Also you can find more in the Loksound group on Groups.io

It's not been publicized by ESU yet but a few new owners seem to  have the new version.

That's an interesting read Pete.  Thanks for posting.  I like the ESU, but after reading that I am not sure $200 savings is worth the trouble.  I signed up for their forum this morning, but have not been approved yet...

Yeah, it's a cryin' shame the first MCII throttle wasn't well executed because it's got some nice features. And I do wish ESU would talk about their apparent upgrade plan more openly. 

Anyway, let's focus on what we can change!  

I don't use the MCII since ProtoThrottle came along, but the CabControl system itself works great: fast and reliable. But if I had to pick another DCC system today I would likely go with NCE because I like to run Diesel consists and NCE has a really nice consisting feature.

So if budget permits, NCE will be a good choice for you. Local support and you may not need a larger booster at first, depending on which loco you get.   

I'm going to try to find out more about the ESU android version, but if I had to buy today I would buy the 5 amp NCE wireless.  Tonys has it as inexpensively as I have seen at $549.95.  I don't think I want to go the ebay route and buy used...just never know how someone treats their equipment.

Edit:  I just found a contact form on ESU's website...had to google it!  Anyway, I asked what version of Android they are currently using...We shall see.  After I submitted the form, it said it may take up to 14 days to respond!!

Since your dabbling maybe reach out to the Yankee Dabbler regarding the ESU Cab Control System, they seem to be the ones who have the most ESU in stock.

TexasSP posted:

Since your dabbling maybe reach out to the Yankee Dabbler regarding the ESU Cab Control System, they seem to be the ones who have the most ESU in stock.

I thought the same thing...I emailed Tonys a few questions...and this was their reply to my questions...I asked:

Do they have them in stock, What version of Android were the ESU systems and which system they liked better?

Their response:

1. Both are in stock
2. Android version 4.1.1
3. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. 
4. • Both are coequal in terms of capability
   • NCE's system has a long history of reliable performance
   • ESU is a new system with no real historical data regarding reliability
   • Android allows for updates
   • We like the tactile feel of the NCE throttle
5. We're all users of the NCE system, the ESU has some great capability but the throttle can be fidgety
6. NCE= old school but super easy to use and reliable

You might just get me off the fence to restart my 2 rail layout plans.  Right now I am struggling to find the small brass steamer I want.  I am trying to find a built up Kemtron Wabash Mogul, its very close in design to East Jordan & Southern #6.   And I live very close to the old Wabash main line and railfan it on a regular basis.  I had one and like a dummy let it go.  I have finally given up on HO, its just getting to hard to see to make it satisfiying anymore.   O scale is much better.     Cheers  Mike

OK, so I am not going to dabble.  I am coming over...   I found a 2 rail guy at the show that is local, so that helped spur me to completely come over.  I am about to start listing most of my 3 rail equipment for sale to fund most everything.  Sold an engine last night which will pay for most of the DCC system (once he pays).  All of my Scale freight cars will be converted over to 2 rail.  I have a deal to sell my favorite 3 rail engine...the Lionel 6-11334 Southern Crescent from 2012 to a board member...so no reason to continue 3 rail without it.   Now will have to find a Crescent for the 2 rail one day...in no hurry, but it will be a must have along with passenger cars one day.

I have decided to go the NCE route.  I just can't decide whether to do the 5 amp or 10 amp system. Then need to decide wireless vs wired.  I know I can upgrade at anytime...so either the 5 amp with wireless for $549 at Tonystrains.com...least expensive I have seen.  Or bite the Bullet and go 10 AMP wired to start @ $509...then if I want to go wireless upgrade from there.  I can use my 180w Lionel brick to power the 10amp system which will save some $.

I think I am getting an Atlas GP-15 engine from a friend and will put a decoder in it.  Once I get it, I will ask advice on decoders...no need to ask now until I have the engine.  Although the 10amp system comes with an NCE D408 4 amp decoder.

I am looking at Microengineering flex track code 148 and Atlas 36" radius to start....thoughts?  Just to get a loop of track to run the egnine.  Do they play well together?  Recommendations?  I have some in my cart on JDstrains.com.  Better place to purchase?

What else am I forgetting?

I would go wireless first as you won't need the 10 amps right away and not being tethered makes life easier, especially when testing and setting up a layout.  Before I had 2 way wireless on my Digitrax layout in HO this was always the biggest paint.  I actually over bought on boosters in the beginning and never used what I had.  Granted this was HO however that 5 amps will be plenty to start with.

Get the 10 amp system. It will serve your needs far longer into the future.

also, invest in at least 42” radii, 48” is even better. Again for the future.

roll_the_dice posted:

What else am I forgetting?

Try to have fun....

OK, so I like most of you are big researchers before I purchase anything.  I was set to buy the 5 amp wireless system and I found the 10 amp wireless at an unbelievable price...the same price as the 5 amp plus power supply.  Since I am going to use my Lionel brick for the 10 amp system, I couldn't pass up the amazing deal on this system.  I also ordered a Kadee coupler height gauge and some kadee couplers to start converting.  Still need to get some trucks or wheel sets.  I am stoked...I am afraid they are going to say the price was a mistake...fingers crossed!

Very nice, can't argue with that. 

That's great news Andy!  You've got it all covered.   

The D408SR will be more than enough for motor drive and lights in an Atlas dual-motor loco such as the GP35.  And for sure we can help you with the install and programming.   If you decide you want sound as well, then Loksound, TCS and Soundtraxx offer some great options with all the latest bells and whistles.  Well, bells and horns in this case, but you get the gist.    

Looking forward to your next update!

roll_the_dice posted:

  I have some in my cart on JDstrains.com.  Better place to purchase ?

 

Better do a search here on the OGR Forum about them.

SZ

Steinzeit posted:

roll_the_dice posted:

  I have some in my cart on JDstrains.com.  Better place to purchase ?

 

Better do a search here on the OGR Forum about them.

SZ

Yeah someone emailed me earlier that they had closed...no wonder the prices looked good!

Pete M posted:

That's great news Andy!  You've got it all covered.   

The D408SR will be more than enough for motor drive and lights in an Atlas dual-motor loco such as the GP35.  And for sure we can help you with the install and programming.   If you decide you want sound as well, then Loksound, TCS and Soundtraxx offer some great options with all the latest bells and whistles.  Well, bells and horns in this case, but you get the gist.    

Looking forward to your next update!

Thanks Pete...Yeah I feel like I got a great deal!  I will feel better when I get tracking.   I will keep you posted as I do more...I need to get track next.

AGHRMatt posted:

Microfasterners.com will become your new best friend for 2-56 and 2mmx8 screws and nuts.

Well said Matt.  After my recent convertathon I'm ready to place yet another order!  

AGHRMatt posted:

roll_the_dice posted:

Thanks @AGHRMatt ... I have some newer MTH cars that have the pads and Iam compiling a list of items I need to convert them.  Do you buy the scale trucks or just change out the wheelsets?

It depends. On my Centerbeam cars, I changed out the trucks from the MTH 3-rail to Weaver plastic trucks with Intermountain 33" steel wheels. On a pair of MTH gondolas, I switched the trucks out for MTH 2-rail trucks which gave the cars the correct ride height, then installed Kadee 740 couplers. On another car, I used the MTH hi-rail trucks with Intermountain wheels. It really depended on what I had in the parts bin at the time and which would be easier for the particular situation. Replacement trucks can get expensive, but the new MTH trucks are a pain to disassemble/reassemble. I'm looking at the newer Atlas 2-rail trucks which have the adapter plug for use with MTH cars. I have a project in the pipe -- converting two strings of MTH Gunderson cars to 2-rail. For now, each string is a massive "transition car" with a Kadee on one end of the string and the hi-rail coupler on the other with the hi-rail wheels still in place since I run them at the club (like I said, I'm operating in both worlds right now).

Something I've done is standardize on the Atlas thinwall trucks for all of my conversions.  Sure it's more expensive but I've developed a knowledgebase of what each car takes to accept that truck.  For example, I was just finishing some moderneraoscale boxcars and realized those cars are setup for a more realistic bolstered truck, like the protocraft trucks, not the Atlas style with a hump in the center of the bolster.  In  the past I would have just milled that down, but I've started using James Lincolns replacement bolsters for these new atlas trucks that not only give a much better appearance but also have flush mounting options.  Not the cheapest route to go, but turns out really nice! 

Pete M posted:

 

The best combo for brass locos is metal coupler in a plastic box for insulation in case the brass shell is "live". Metal coupler in a metal box is good for mounting on plastic.

Totally agree with Pete here.  While I have standardized on Kadee 740's I also have some plastic gearboxes for such scenarios.  However, I really prefer the metal gearboxes and install them 80%+ of the time. 

OK, so I want to convert a Lionel Caboose to 2 rail.  It is item # 6-27657.  Looks like the truck is held in with an E-clip.  I want to keep the lights in the caboose and the smoke unit if possible.  Do the Atlas Caboose trucks attach with E-clips or screws?  What would the best truck for this job be?  OR should I sell it and buy a different caboose and paint it how I want?  Thanks

Not 100% sure on Lionel cabooses , but certainly the atlas caboose trucks will give you a leg up on electrical pickup. I don't run many cabooses as I model more present day operations.   I'm sure someone else can shed some light on converting lionel cabooses and maintaining the lights, smoke, etc.   

I was thinking about getting one of those lionel cabooses with the camera, but haven't yet... 

Andy, the Atlas 2R trucks typically mount with a screw from underneath.
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-273...-caboose-trucks.aspx

Their caboose truck come with pickups installed. The most important measurement comparisons will be the height above the railhead of the bolster-to-truck pivot interface, and the ID and OD of the truck and bolster mounting bosses.  The screw size and thread type is the other thing to note.

Sometimes you get lucky like in Catnap's example above and the Atlas truck will bolt right onto a Lionel car. And sometimes not. In which case you may need drilling and filing or adding of washers to get a nice smooth truck pivot and the car at the proper height for looks as well as getting the Kadee at the right height.

Of course you can also space the Kadee down, but don't get sucked into over-lowering the car height so the Kadee mount can't get back up to proper height.  Not that anyone would be foolish enough to make that mistake...    

Thanks Pete!  I am going to order a the trucks and see what I can do.  

I bought an engine today.  An Atlas Trainman Dash 8-40CW DC, so I will want to add the NCE decoder to it when I get the engine and decoder...what sound board would you look at?  I may run it without sound to start, but am curious what you would put in it?

That is a one big 6-axle loco and will need some wide radius curves, e.g. something 50" (or 60" would even be better) to not drag freight cars off the tracks due to the overhang when going around curves.  Remember, no swinging pilots with 2 Rail, so you need wide radius curves with these big 6-axle locos and no short cars coupled to the loco unless you are running on some wide radius curves. 

As for the decoder for this loco that has both great motor control and excellent sound, then get this one:

Order this ESU Loksound V5 L sound decoder and ask for the "GE 16-7FDL Modern - S0719" sound file shown below to be loaded on it.

https://tonystrains.com/produc...ale-sound-decoder-ge

You can hear a sample if you scroll down to this ESU Loksound page and open up the link for the "GE 16-7FDL Modern"

http://projects.esu.eu/project...;type=all&cat=18

Use this speaker in the link below, if at all possible.  It has very good low end and these big GEs are very "bassy" but not sure if it will fit in the fuel tank both lengthwise or height-wise.  If it doesn't fit, you may be able to make some sort of elevated platform to mount above the decoder atop the frame between the two vertical motors above the trucks.  There will be lots of room between the motors for a decoder and possibly an elevated speaker, which would be an optimal location as it would be right below the exhaust stack so the sound will be coming out right at the stack.  Those fuel tanks are pretty big though, so it may very fit in the tank if you cut off the mounting tabs from the speaker.

https://www.parts-express.com/...1-2-x-1-1-8--264-944

Scott

Dear Andy,

Since you are going the DCC power route, why didn't you buy the ESU DCC equipped Trainman GE ?

I believe I paid $365.00 each for my 6 and they are take out of the box ready to go. Also a great value for a DCC O scale loco.

John P. Dunn Sr. Scale2Rail Promotions

jdunn posted:

Dear Andy,

Since you are going the DCC power route, why didn't you buy the ESU DCC equipped Trainman GE ?

I believe I paid $365.00 each for my 6 and they are take out of the box ready to go. Also a great value for a DCC O scale loco.

John P. Dunn Sr. Scale2Rail Promotions

Hi John...I was looking at the same engine with ESU DCC...I think it was in the $390 range plus shipping.  I bought the DC version for under $200...so even adding a nice ESU decoder, I will be around $325 for the engine with DCC and sound.  Plus this one was already lightly weathered.  I think yours has working ditch lights which is nice...mine won't...only drawback.  Should be here Monday or Tuesday.

There were a few MTH O scale locomotives, that were set-up, (3-2).  Primarily 3 rail, but had a switch, bottom of tender (3-2), and the wheels, though large flanges, were insulated/isolated, to allow the removal of the third rail pic-up, power from the Left and Right rail.   Russian Decapod is (3-2).    Click on the underlined phrase to link pictures of the Russian Decapod.   DCS units were designed for both AC and DC operation.   The large flange, O gauge wheels, would require Code 200+ rails and switches. 

Interesting manufacturing system, designed to streamline production of both two rail and three rail models, IMO  ???   Mike CT. 

@Scott Kay  Thanks!  I will definitely take a look at ESU as they always have great sound.  I am getting an NCE decoder with my 10amp system...so I may use it to start and look for an additional sound board.  Just depends whether I buy any other engines.

@Mike CT  I knew about the MTH -2 engines with scale wheels, but not about these.  Are these proto2?  I think all their scale wheel engines are proto3...but not sure.  I will definitely get a MTH 2 rail engine at some point.  

I am also looking at a KTM brass GP35...I think that is why I went with the 10 amp system.  I didn't want to be hindered if I found an energy hog engine I liked.

@Mike CT  I knew about the MTH -2 engines with scale wheels, but not about these.  Are these proto2?   Marked on the box Proto2  I think all their scale wheel engines are proto3...but not sure.  I will definitely get a MTH 2 rail engine at some point.  

I have 2 Trainman Dash 8-40CW's and they will handle a 49.5" radius curve with no problem. 89' flat cars are no problem either. Anything below a 45" radius may become an issue unless you make some modifications to longer cars or add a shorter buffer car in between. Make sure you avoid "S" curves unless you plan on placing a long straight between them (at least 30").

Scott is correct about the sound file if you decide to go that route. That is the default sound file that Atlas used in their Trainman Dash 8's and it's also the same file I loaded into my Master Dash 8-40B, right down to the Nathan K3HA air horn. The horn may or may not be correct but it sounds good and looks like one to boot.