I'm wondering what will be presented in the American Flyer 2015 Catalog!

6-49883 to 49886 according to Charles Ro's website.

Ben

Bill and others.  According to the Lionel AF facebook page the first mailings will begin next week and be live on line at 9:00 Monday February 2nd.  All speculations will be answered at that time.  Here's hoping for some good news for the scale side of the hobby (whatever that means! :-) )

 

Roger

I also noticed that the non lighted grade crossing has also been removed from Ro's website. 

 

This is has me wondering why there is what seems to be an expansion in turnout radius pieces for S fastrack, but the elimination of other important pieces? Maybe lionel is only willing to dedicate so much money during a fiscal year (or whatever time period) to the development and production of fastrack and the money for the 27" turnouts sunk the lighted crossing.  Wish we would be given some info on the status of this so it is easier to make purchasing decisions.  

 

Ben 

Frankly, it's not a matter of what will be in the 2015 catalog, it's a matter of what will be cancelled from the 2015 catalog.  (Yeah, still some lingering sour grapes about the 57' mechanical reefer cancellation...)

 

I appreciate the strides Lionel's made into the S scale realm over the past few years, but I suspect there will be less and less to attract this small segment of the market as time goes by.  I would love to be proved wrong.

 

Rusty

@Rusty: regarding  your comment about the small segment. Why do you suppose MTH got into the S gauge/scale market? I consider Mike to be a fairly astute business man. I can't imagine him getting into something to loose money on it.

Notice all the MTH products come with hirail wheels and Flyer compatible couplers.  That's the big part of the S market.  The scale side (the small flange and Kadee coupler gang) is the small side.

 

Scale wheels are available at extra cost from MTH, unlike SHS which included scale wheels in the box.  Scalers were always pretty much on their own regarding couplers, regardless of manufacturer.

 

SHS was available for sale and Mike bought it.  Mike didn't just throw a quarter-ton of money at Don Thompson and Mike Ferraro and say gimme.  I'm sure the negotiations were long and rather involved.

 

With the sale, MTH picked up the good name and reputation of S Helper Service.  The Jury's still out as there's only a small segment of the SHS product line has been released under the MTH banner.  What also remains to be seen is how soon and with what MTH expands beyond the former SHS product in S.

 

Rusty

just got home from the Amherst train show at the big E in Springfield Mass. visited the Lionel Booth talked to Matt A. and asked him on some of the delivery  issues, he said that the PE set is getting close it is in production we should see it in March. the new 2015 AF catalog will be avail be first week of Feb. not a lot of new products we will see the new Berkshire sets, asked about the crossing gates they are pulled but will be re introduced/redesigned maybe 2016? the Smoking Caboose is in production the over heating problem has been fixed should see it in March.

Went to the MTH booth the F7 were in the same unpainted unit sitting there looks like no change from last year, it was a somewhat disappointing to see what was there! 

talked to Charlie Ro and he said the same on the flyer deliveries he had  some good deal 

Matt A stated  that their is a lot of AF inventory  and that is a factor with new product being introduces.

I don't think we should refer to the Berkshire sets as "new" anymore.  This will be the third year they have been in a catalog. 

Looks like we really have to look forward to the MTH catalog this year huh? 

As for lots of inventory...defective fantasy scheme cylindrical hoppers are going to sit a while there big L.   It would be interesting (maybe depressing) to know how many other "scale" pieces are sitting out there on shelves. 

I hope for our sake that Lionel comes around (or the market does) and we are not stuck with three legacy diesels and two legacy steamers to chose from for the rest of our lives.  My challengers are getting tired...

Ben

With the catalog coming out in a week, we'll get a better idea of what direction Lionel's going to take with the Flyer Line.  I'm withholding further opinions until then.

 

Rusty

I too asked Lionel at the Amherst show about the new catalog and was told that except for the docksider set a lot of items in the 2014 catalog would be repeated in the 2015 version. A "few" new items would be introduced but they were non committal as far as what new means in reference to an actual item or new paint scheme.

I did get the same type of answer on new products, my definition of new product are something that has not been made, if there are new road names on ES44 then I do not count that as a new product just a variation , so the Berkshire from my perspective are new, seeing no one has gotten one yet. even thought they have beed advertised we never got the product.

I wish Lionel would focus on track radius, switches with differant radius's I look at it from the perspective you lay the track first and then run the trains.

I think all in all Lionel has done  a lot while I wish we could have more I am happy for what we have been offered. I believe if we buy more products that will encourage more new products.It is up to the S scale community? 

 

One more bit of info is that some of the cars that were in the defenders set will be made available in the new catalog.

I'm not going to give away the source of my information, but I think a lot of people will be disappointed. Especially those looking for new scale products. There are basically zero new scale products in the 2015 AF catalog. Just a bunch of repaints and reruns. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

If you are internet savvy you should be able to find a copy of the catalog out there right now.

Jonathan. 

 

I don't think at this point there are a whole lot of people surprised by that.  Hopefully between notch 6, York and the S Gaugian interview we can get an idea what's up with Lionel.  To go 4 or 5 years in a row with new product introductions (scale or traditional) and to then stop is worrisome to say the least.  

 

I don't consider myself un-internet savvy, but I busted out after about 20 minuets of looking.  Are there any new repaints for the SD70?  Still holding out for the WP and Katy UP heritage units.  

 

This sucks.

 

Ben.  

No SD-70s at all Ben. Sorry.

 

In my opinion Lionel is going to focus on traditional AF going forward. I think they didn't get the sales from the scale stuff that they wanted/needed and this is the result.

 

I think scale products are all but dead from Lionel. I don't care what they say in the interviews. Something has changed in their decision process. Someone in the know told me about 18 months ago that there was NO new tooling in the pipeline other than the AF Berk. That is abundantly apparent after viewing this catalog.

 

Any ES44AC's in other road names?

 

Regards,

Frank

I found the "missing link" to the catalog, and all I can say is.....the Berkshire doesn't look too bad. As for the rest,not interested,I'm afraid...

 

Mark in Oregon

Frank - No

 

Mark, I don't get it, are they "scale" or not?  The MSRP is as much as the whole polar express set but the only additional feature I saw is the electro Cupler. They look a little more detailed than the PE set Burkeshire but not much. Maybe the picture does not tell all. 

 

What at happened to the other NKP and C&O starter sets?  Did Lionel kill them?  

 

10 pages of old pictures of cylindrical hoppers too...sad. 

 

I hope Lionel is just taking a year off of new Legacy pieces, I get it if they are, the heritage programs problably have the market flooded with unpurchased pieces.  

 

If this catalog is going to be the new norm, I'm out.  I hope that's not the case.  I'm interested to see all the comments on Monday.  

 

Ben 

Did you notice that the earlier older cylindrical hoppers on page 12 to 19 apparently are still being sold with the scale wheels?  If they are the same trucks and wheels they had before with all the problems who will be interested at this point unless the cars are at blowout prices?

 

Mike A.

A change in management.

 

Rusty

Yes there is a new guy at the top, and he must be an O scale guy. LOL

The only diesel locomotives that appear in the 2015 catalogue are a few ES44AC models that appear in "blowout" sales at hobby shops--exactly the items very few S gauge customers bought in the first place. The catalogue lists them at full retail price. The cylindrical hoppers have the same part numbers as before. The Canadian National rainbow hexamethylene diisocyanate hopper (from the 2012 catalogue!) is still part number 6-48639 with no mention of high-rail trucks. They may still be factory leftovers with the out-of-alignment scale wheels and too-high bolsters that few customers bought--just the thing to encourage pre-orders!

 

I'm afraid that Lionel product managers figure that offering unwanted stock a second time will be proof that S gauge customers are too few and too finicky to justify the effort to build products that work and that match real trains. It was not their fault that customers did not rush to buy hoppers that derailed, glossy locomotives of a single railroad, or painted over versions of that railroads locomotives. It's their fault. "See? We tried to sell the same old stuff a second time and they still didn't buy it!"  

 

If the catalogue is really what will be available for 2015, why bother to print it in the first place except for the Berkshire engines? It could have been whittled down to a single-page American Flyer flyer. Just a little more effort on Lionel's part could have brought back some excitement.

NASCAR, actually...

 

Rusty

Why is the RTR sets not listed at all.  The only set is the PE.  Is Lionel pulling the throttle back so much they are not listing any RTR sets?  Even the docksider set is not in it. 

This is not like "man, they really missed the mark by not making THAT new engine without that feature, or that road name" like the O Gauge guys are...this is more like Lionel saying "we're out, later...don't forget to buy up that old stuff on our way out the door". 

It would mean a lot to people if they would just let us know what their intentions are.

I have spent a lot of money preparing to maintain a long term relationship with Lionel's flyer line, specifically legacy and scale equipment because LIONEL said it was viable for us to do so.

I would like to know if these feelings that I have been lead on are accurate or not.  I can not decide if I am being fair in my opinions on this but I feel that my money was poorly spent now. 

Ben

Where are you guys seeing the 2015 catalog?  The Lionel site isn't showing it under the catalog draw down on their website.  Please send the link.

 

Thanks

Out of respect to Lionel, I would rather not send the link. Respect apparently goes only one way when Lionel:

• Cancels the mechanical reefer one month before delivery. The news leaked out in their Facebook page. In truth, they never bothered to make the reefer at all or inform anyone long before the leak, not even those with the pre-orders Lionel is trying to promote.
• Offers derailing hoppers with scale wheels and American Flyer couplers. Then offers a free “fix” with a new lobster-claw coupler. Now they’re “back” for 2015—as if they never left.
• • These old cylindrical hoppers appear in the catalogue with high-rail wheels but there is a note that they actually come with scale wheels that, as a “feature” of the hoppers, can be switched for high-rail wheels. That special feature costs an additional $25 on top of the $80 suggested price for the hopper.
• For 2013 builds ES44AC locomotives that represent 6% of the locomotives on the rails. The next year they address the most popular of the other 94% by simply painting the 6% bodies. For 2015 they eliminate even those versions and sell only the dregs from 2013-2014.
• Promotes Legacy as a wonderful way to run trains—which is true. For 2015 Lionel introduces NO new Legacy locomotives—only shows the dregs hobby shops are still trying to scrape off their shelves.  
• Promotes Legacy’s AF Speed Control On/OFF switch that has not existed on any locomotive for nearly five years.
• Notes that at the “top of our Flyer list” is the “anxiously awaited Polar Express set.” The anxiety was before Christmas. Now anxiety has corroded to disappointment and probably some child’s distrust.

For 2015 we get some repaints of work cars, passenger cars, and a green Army theme. Maybe next year the green goes to blue Navy as the excitement grows. If we are lucky, perhaps a vampire-themed cylindrical hopper will be “all new” for 2016. I can’t wait. I mean it. I can’t.

Well, I'm going to hold my fire until I can actually see the catalog (although it'll have

to be the HTLM version 'cause I can't view the interactive version at work.)

 

But, it's beginning to look like my life's going to get a lot simpler.

 

Rusty

Save big money.
No more Lionel.

The Berks actually look quite nice and the D&H passenger cars will go nicely with my American Models PA's and quite frankly I am not interested in the modern era motive power and cars as it does not fit my layout era. I wonder how kids could be interested in modern era trains as they are rather blah in color schemes and variety compared to earlier decades. The NS "B" line passes my house and a mile of container loads following 3 listless identical black engines is boring. Even the mixed freight cars lack any color variety as in the 50's to 70's era. Occasionly a UP or BNSF run through lends a little variety but with the same type of motive power. To each his own. More money available for Gilbert, AM and SHS equipment.

For my S scale friends...

 

**THUD**

 

I had the opportunity to view the 2015 A/F catalog last night at an undisclosed location.

 

A lead balloon has more buoyancy.

 

Mostly leftovers across the board.  However, those that bought the D&H and SP PA's do get passenger cars with one 3 car set and 2 two car sets.  A smattering of new non-fantasy traditional freight cars along with a couple of U.S. Army branded Defender cars.  No new track or accessories that I saw.  Previously announced Baldwin switchers and 0-6-0's represent traditional motive power.

 

Yep, except for the Polar Express, all the sets have disappeared.   The separate sale FlyerChief Berkshire comes in five flavors weighing in at $350.  Which is pretty close to what the O Gauge LionChief steamers come in at.

 

Now, the Flyrail person in me says this is pretty good.  It's a relatively moderately priced large steam locomotive with sound, basic command control and the ability to run conventionally.  Doesn't look too bad, either even with all cast on detailing.  But, given the recent past, I can't shake the feeling that this will be the one and only offering. 

I may pick up a Berkshire, but haven't decided whether to pre-order or wait for an opportunity once they're released.

 

What's left of the "scale" stuff is all leftovers.  NS Heritage ES44's and practically, if not all the cylindrical hoppers.  I expect we're witnessing the end of scale Flyer for the foreseeable future.

 

The warning signs were there:  The limited production of "normal" ES44's, the 11th hour cancellation of the 57' mechanical reefers, the half-way truck solutions.

 

The song is over.  Stick a fork in it, it's done.  End of the line.  Choose your own cliche.  Scale Flyer was fun while it lasted.  Farewell.

 

At least my life has gotten simpler.  I won't have to defend Lionel anymore against the more extreme wing of the scale folks.  It's somewhat liberating.

 

Rusty

Last night I got to see the 2015 AF catalog in a secure info-bunker somewhere in the Midwest.

I am either naive or the eternal optimist, but I'm looking at the lack of new scale tooling as a break to clear the Heritage-mania that was sweeping the land. They surely have a glut of that stuff. As they say in laxative commercials; This Too Shall Pass. 

I still expect to see high end steamers in the future. They sold well enough, I hope.

But it may be awhile.

The LionChief Berkshires are nice looking. I will order a few of them. The price is reasonable.

There are a couple new paint schemes on traditional freight cars. Considering how expensive they are using ancient tooling, and AM and MTH's cars are so much better looking and cheaper, I may still have to get one that caught my eye.

Well, apparently, I am NOT internet savvy, and apparently the IT guy at the Hospital and the College are are not either, because none of us can bring up the secret site known only to the cognosendi.

 

However, I am not as upset as some folks are by the news I am hearing.  

 

I wanted a Berkshire for my layout and I wasn't thrilled about having to buy rolling stock or track that I don't want or need in order to get one.  If they are indeed going to be offered for separate sale, I am even more likely to buy one. Perhaps this is not a sign that the Lionel management is not listening, but instead is an indication that they are listening to their customer base and giving the majority of their toy train and hi-rail customers what they want, instead of trying to roll the dice and see if a starter set will expand the market.  It isn't bad business to sell something that a lot of folks want.  I agree with Rusty that if you want one, you had better buy it now, because it may never get made again. However, I'm gonna preorder it for sure, because I don't think it will sit on the dealer shelves for long.

 

I am not sad to hear that the "modern" rolling stock is not being expanded.  Again, it is just not something that I want on my "transition era" layout.  If there are enough people who want it, someone will make it. I know a lot of people who model in S and I don't know anyone who wants "modern" stuff.  Again, not a bad business decision.  You tested the waters and if the stuff was gonna sell, it would have.    

 

As for the repaints of traditional stuff-judging by the blow out prices at the online dealers for the Boy Scout and the Fantasy Christmas rolling stock, I would guess these kind of cars are less popular with the American Flyer modelers than they are with the O gauge modelers.  There are some schemes that I would love to see on the Traditional Cars that haven't been done (Black LNE boxcars with large letters) that I still want.  I usually buy one or three every year and I don't think that is going to change.

 

As for Scale S,  I never saw Lionel as a supplier for these types of models.  It was only affordable for small manufacturers like AM and SHS to make Scale because they could also make the rolling stock run on AF track with minor modifications. It was unfortunate that Lionel made 2 big mistakes, in my opinion, when they tested the waters: 1. The rolling stock could not easily be made AF compatible, 2. The scale items were mostly Big Steam (which looks silly on 20" radius curves), or modern, when most established layouts are set in the transition era, so they appealed to a smaller share of the potential market.  As most of the "Scale guys" I know are not at all deterred by changing trucks or couplers, I suspect that Lionel sold as many cylindrical hoppers as they were going to sell to the scale side of the S market, even it they hadn't had the truck debacle. 

 

So for me, I am going to to probably buy an engine and 1-3 pieces of rolling stock, which is more than I have bought for the last 5 years.  It doesn't sound like a bad Catalog to me.  As Ricky Nelson said "you can't please everyone . . . "

 

Little Tommy

 

 

A well thought out response, Tommy.

 

I think you'll be pleased with the separate sale Berkshires.  If you've seen photo's of the Flyer Polar Express Berk prototypes, the other five are exactly the same, but without the funky pilot.  The only difference is the roadnames: NKP, Pere Marquette, C&O, Erie and Southern.  Bear in mind, they will look just as elegant on a 20" radius curve as the Flyer or AM Northerns.

 

Rusty

I agree with almost all the points Banjo makes especially about scale products.  The 85% of us that are users of "Pizza Cutter Wheels" have gotten a bunch of stuff to add to our collections.  Lionel has offered a reasonable amount of choices since 1979.  Who can fault them for not producing items where they loose money?

 

My greatest complaint is how long we have to wait for products to be produced.  It seems they just can't get products produced on time.  It seems MTH is stuck with the same issue as the long promissed F3s are just now in production.  

 

MTH has not announced any production of products new to their line in S.  All of what they so are SHS items from the past.  I never bought SHS because it was too scale for me.

 

When I interview MTH and Lionel at York in April I will be asking both about future product development and production timelines to see if I can get a good answer. 

This is why I feel Lionel and MTH need to get outside of the "York Bubble" and interact with the core S folks (all of them, from Scaler to Flyer enthusiast) who are going to be the first in line to like or dislike what is produced.  This is the market as it exists, not some potential on a graph.

 

Delays permeate the industry in general.  Lionel and MTH both have O items that folks have been waiting on for over a year or two, or have cancelled items.  And if you want to hear disappointment and confusion, look up Lionel's long delayed but finally released California Zephyr cars on the 3 Rail side.

 

Heck, I've been waiting going on 3 years for Athearn to produce an announced HO locomotive...

 

Now, perhaps Lionel will capture lightning in a bottle with the FlyerChief project.  It's an interesting concept and the Berkshire seems to straddle the middle ground of price point and detail. I have no illusions the scale crowd will ignore it, but it's also not aimed at them.

 

Likewise, the Scaler in me probably wouldn't normally give it a second look, but my inner Flyrailer has me considering it.

 

Good luck with your interviews.  It should be an interesting read.

 

Rusty

@Rusty Traque: (and apologies for not sticking to the thread but this will be brief).

Rusty, what Athearn engine(s) are you waiting for?

thanks,

Steve

Here's my two cents.  How about an 2015 C2 catalog with some new items in it?

 

Thanks, Phil  

When one gets to view the 2015 catalog one may notice the description of the Berk no longer contains the statement about plastic tender shell and trucks but states all metal trucks in a general term. A good thing. 

The semi-streamlined SP MT5.  I like it because the MT5 is cool.

 

Rusty