i may be the new scrapiron. S-3 help needed

First of all, to be the next Scrapiron you have to run a full scale locomotive off the rails.  I don't guess it has to be a steamer, but that would probably help.

 

Secondly, I received a used Lionel Postwar 646 Hudson yesterday.  Been running it off and on ever since I got it. Its age has to be minimum fifty-four years and all of its features, admittedly far fewer than the latest whiz-bang products, still work perfectly, even though it's not been restored or even cleaned.  I did lubricate it after about an hour and now it runs even better!

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very sorry for your trials but I can't help but wonder if the incessant demand for more, and more complex, features is just a turnout onto a dead end spur.

 

Pete

well, i may never buy another engine.

 

and once i get this one functioning, i may have to sell it.  i don't think i can reeingineer that section of track any more than i already have.

 

Forrest, there's only one solution here. Wait until you hear from Scrappy. His first hand advice will set you right.

No sounds?
OK try just setting the tender on the track. Anything? Check to see if you flipped the railsounds on/off button. Check the volume switch.  You may be resetting it but don't know it without the sound confirmations. Open the tender and see if any wires are melted?
My engine sounds disappeared when I lost power over a switch. I stopped the Eng. Hit aux 1 0 then cut the power, turned power back on, hit aux 1 0, aux 1 3, and they came back on.

Worst case you ship it back to Lionel. Their repair work is improving.

I forgot to ask do you have a battery in the tender?
The smoke unit popping happened to mine. The resistor was hitting the reservoir. Thus grounding the circuit. I had to replace and realign the resistor. Make sure you fill both reservoirs by waiting and refilling so the adjacent reservoir gets fluid.

No battery in tender. Have done the sequence you suggested. I have no sounds at all, even when doing a reset.

 

would be interested to hear from other owners of this engine as to the distance between the IR modules on the engine/tender hookup. 

 

Just to clarify, everything is OK but sounds

Forrest,

I can tell you from experience that short circuits, however brief, are bad medicine.

1) clean your track perfectly.

2) start the loco

3) do a reset and shut track power

4) restart and choose a different number.

5) repeat twice

6) call Mike if the problem persists.

OK, I think I can help. As it happens, I was running my S3 yesterday at a friend's house and the sound cut out, just like you described. We kept resetting it and it kept cutting out. Finally I took a real close look at the alignment of the wireless tender connection and it was just a little bit off - the tender side was a hair low. I bent the tender drawbar up a tiny bit (like maybe 1/32" or less) and it ran fine after that. It sounds like your tender connection got bent a little bit in the derailment. 

 

I have had the same issue with derailing on our museum layout, which has wide curves laid with flex track. Can you describe the spot where it derails, what kind of track, what kind of curve, ballast or not, any thing else that might be relevant? Also, how did it derail - from the front or the back, or the whole thing lifting up and tilting, what did it look like? I posted about the problem when the S3 first came out, but everyone who responded said theirs was fine. Mine does not give any problem at home (0-72 tubular track) or at my friend's house (Ross sectional track in RossBed). 

I know what it is.  My friend has the same engine (same cab number and everything) and it was having the same problem.  He sent it in and they said that they had to scrape some paint off of an IR receiver on the bottom.  You should check that.

"I have had the same issue with derailing on our museum layout, which has wide curves laid with flex track. Can you describe the spot where it derails, what kind of track, what kind of curve, ballast or not, any thing else that might be relevant? Also, how did it derail - from the front or the back, or the whole thing lifting up and tilting, what did it look like? I posted about the problem when the S3 first came out, but everyone who responded said theirs was fine. Mine does not give any problem at home (0-72 tubular track) or at my friend's house (Ross sectional track in RossBed). "

descending grade approaching left O54 curve. I only got to see it happen once before I got side tracked by the sound problem. Looked as if the front drivers lifted up, tilted and forced the pilot to derail With them. 

Atlas nickel silver track ballasted 

I bellieve this was mention when these first came out but that new telescopic drawbar seems to be less "forgiving" in some track situations.

I thought of the IR potential myself. However, when I put the engine in reverse, the backup light on the tender goes on. Would that happen if there were an IR problem?

Scrap,

Shouldn't you be watching the team in the Bronx?

Sure. The connection between the reverse board and the backup light is direct and wired. The sound is dependent on information exchange between the locomotive and the electronics in the tender. I don't remember if the backup light worked when I was having my problem; I probably didn't look. 

 Looked as if the front drivers lifted up, tilted and forced the pilot to derail With them.

 

Sounds like the same format as my derailments. I'm planning to do some more testing at the museum with a couple of friends who are experienced train repairmen, but it's going to have to wait until November because one of them is out of town. 

 

Did it derail toward the inside or the outside of the curve?

Mr. Jerome:
I didn't mean the drawbar, I meant the IR receiver on the bottom of the chassis that was said to be for a "new Legacy item".

Forrest,

 

First of all I want to say I really like your layout it is beautiful. You need to put up more video's!

 

I posted on your other thread about getting the engine. Great purchase by the way. You'll really enjoy the S-3 once you get past this hic-up.

 

Getting to your problem, Check the IR alignment like others have said, that's a good idea. However, with all the button pushing you might have muted the sound completly. Press the AUX-1 button then raise the volume on the Legacy controller. By pressing the volume up key on the keypad. That could be the problem.

 

As far as the derailment goes, check to make sure the front truck swings from side to side easily. You may have to do some adjustment on the swingarms and the bolts, maybe a little lube. No big deal. I made some adjustments on mine and it goes around tubular 0-42 curves with out a problem.

 

I hope this helps.

Mike R

"Did it derail toward the inside or the outside of the curve?"

i do not remember. 

Will be doing more analysis tomorrow. Suspect transition from descent to flat and telescoping drawbar Pushing rear of engine down and lifting front. 

"Mr. Jerome:

OK, here is a bit of new info. Was trying to check the alignment of the drawbar IR devices and noticed sparks where the drawbars were touching. Clearly, there is current where there shouldn't be. Yikes. 

i am getting 16.5v through the tender drawbar.  that can't be right or good.

SWH,

 

here is my morning analysis.

 

the engine is descending a grade into a 1 section atlas O54 left curve leading to a 1 section straight into the curved section of an atlas O54 LH switch.  the departure happens right after the first drivers enter the LH curve.

 

the engine tilts left, the front of the pilot lifts up, the front RH driver lifts up and off she goes.

 

i have eliminated the drawbar as the problem since i can see it happen with just engine alone.  

 

i was doing this by hand, no power.

 

as mentioned before, my FEF handles this part fine and it is the most finicky engine i have.  it has a longer wheel base than the S-3, so i would not expect problems with the S-3.

 

here is my theory.  just above and slight to the outside of the front pilot wheel is a cylinder assembly (i don't know enough about steam engines to tell you what it is).  there are two cylinders, one is a little larger than the other.  on the left side, the larger cylinder is to the rear.  on the right side, it is forward.  i suspect they made one part and used it on both sides (there is a flat portion on one side, for mounting ease i suspect, and the flat part goes to the inside so the part is reversed from one side to the other).

 

there are some nubs on the bottom of the larger cylinder.  examination shows that these nubs had the paint scraped off of them.  as i watched the action, i could see the front pilot stop rolling.

 

putting the engine on level track where i could get at it, showed clearance between the pilot wheel and this assembly.  however, if i lifted the cab slightly to simulate what was happening on this section of track, the separation disappeared quickly.

 

i suspect what happens is that the pilot starts to turn for the curve, but, because of the position of the body of the engine, the wheel jams against the nubs on the left cylinder assembly and freezes, neither rolling or moving and that is what causes the tilt and derail.

I had something similar to this with my 765 which would derail in curves with the same lifting motion and it was the rear truck that was jamming.  a little grease helped the truck swing freely and solved the problem.

 

once i get the sound thing resolved (16.5v from tender drawbar and coupler!!!), i will file the nubs down and do anything else to the pilot truck that seems to be warranted.

 

Forrest

 

The two cylindrical objects at the back of the pilot are the air pumps. I looked at that area on my S3 and I am skeptical that the pilot wheels could be hitting the air pumps. I had to lift the cab an inch or more, to the point where the tip of the pilot was almost hitting the center rail, before I got any interference, even at severe deflection. I did see some scrapes on my air pumps, but I think they are from the pilot truck rattling around in transit rather than anything that happened on the layout. I also found some minor rubs on the bottom front of the cylinders, but it also was very difficult to get the wheels to touch the cylinders. In any case, it's easy enough to test whether the pilot truck is the problem before you start filing and grinding (once you get the electrical issue sorted out). Just remove the pilot truck and run the engine through the problem area. Also look to see how close the pilot is coming to the center rail. 

 

With regard to that electrical problem, I hope the seller was an authorized Lionel dealer. Or if not, maybe he will give you a copy of the original receipt from where he bought it. I understand Lionel is very hard-line about having a receipt for warranty service. The next thing I would do is try to isolate whether the short is in the engine or in the tender. If it's in the tender, you can very likely pop the shell off and find it visually. If it's in the engine, you've got a tougher choice. Removing the loco shell voids the warranty, and from what I understand, it's really hard to get off and even harder to get back on without it being obvious that it's been removed. Pulling the tender shell may void the warranty too, but that's simple enough to do without leaving obvious signs. 

One last thought - check the power lead to the infrared light itself. If that lead is touching the drawbar, it could be the source of your stray voltage.  

 

Good luck. Let us know how it works out. 

gotta be the tender because it does it standing alone.

 

you are allowed to take the tender shell off as that is how you get the battery in.  i plan to do that tonight.

 

i do not have to lift the cab that far (1 inch) to get contact, only about 3/8 inch.  i like the idea about removing the pilot truck.  will try that tonight too.

 

doubt it is the infrared lead as i am getting the same voltage on the rear coupler.  unlikely they are connected???

My S3 did that going over a switch, etc. Put a battery in it and it never didit again. But when the sound went away, I could always readdress the engine and it would start up the sounds again.

SWH, i was pretty sure i saw what i thought i saw.  with the pilot truck off, engine negotiates section without a problem.

 

removed the tender shell.  found a wire that had been pinched between frame and body screw.  hope that was the problem was dashed (would have shorted to the shell, not the drawbar/coupler).  could not see anything else tonight.  will look again tomorrow.

 

"But when the sound went away, I could always readdress the engine and it would start up the sounds again."

doesn't work for me chuck.  something other than simple sound interruption since, as noted above, i have 16.5v of current in both the tender drawbar and rear coupler.  pretty sure that is not supposed to happen.

today's discovery

 

the wires from the IR sensor run through a hole in a vertical section of the drawbar.  both wires (one black, one white) show damage (searing).  have no idea how this would affect what i am seeing (or not hearing, as the case may be), but it is the only anomaly i can detect.

 

There was a pilot truck mounting issue with some of these when they first came out, maybe this is causing your derailment problem. See herehttps://ogrforum.com/d...ent/2415514336570838

 

Its not completely obvious in your photo but if those wires in your photo are cut through to the insulation and the bare wire is rubbing on the steel this could definately cause sound issues.I would try and cover the bare areas to keep them from shorting and see if theres any change.

 

Have you tried placing the tender itself on the layout and powering it up as JDaddy suggested. "Lone" tenders will startup sounds as soon as the track is powered up, if your not getting any sounds this way there may be a problem within the tender electronics. It may be time to request an RA from Lionel and save yourself some further aggrivation.

"Have you tried placing the tender itself on the layout and powering it up as JDaddy suggested. "Lone" tenders will startup sounds as soon as the track is powered up, if your not getting any sounds this way there may be a problem within the tender electronics. It may be time to request an RA from Lionel and save yourself some further aggrivation."

have done.  no sounds.

i am not going to fiddle with the wires as i don't want to further damage my chances of warranty repair (which are slim).

contacted lionel friday.  awaiting response.