Inducing 'chopped' sine wave power using a Z4000 to enhance Legacy/TMCC operations?

Sam

You are correct about the wave form of the MTH bricks getting chopped in the Z-controller.

As for trains running better on chopped sine waves........

Well, what can I say.

First, our trains were doing just fine on the pure sine waves put out by Type Z, ZW and Z-4000s.  Then Jon Z designed a smoke unit circuit that didn't make much smoke when running on a pure sine wave.  Mike R saved Jon with what turned out to be a marketing triumph in that video.

But, like many marketing gimmicks, that video is mostly BS.  The Lionel smoke units work better on a chopped sine wave because they were designed poorly.  Other than that Mike R's video is 300 pounds of horse feathers.

My understanding of this is that if you are operating can motored modern locomotives in conventional mode, you'd want to run them directly from the Z4000, rather through the variable outputs of the TIU.  The TIU, as designed, has a starting voltage in variable mode that is too high for some modern locomotives, and the result is sometimes jack-rabbit type starts. 

As for Lionel locomotives in conventional mode, I'd tend to believe what Jon Zahornacky and Mike Reagan recommend.  They probably work best with Lionel power supplies, for all the obvious reasons, but I'm sure the Z4000 will be perfectly acceptable, although the smoke units may not operate optimally.  Since smoke in large quantities may well be bad for your health if you are very young, very old or have asthma or lung or heart disease, I'd say it's a moot point for many of us.

I agree with a lot of what Ted says.  I thought I saw the PW transformer readjusted during that video between test.

Personnally, I have a modern ZW, Power Master and K-Line Super Chief transformer on my layout.  As far as running MTH in conventional with those, they run fine and smoke well.  My analog meter reads high to get the motion I want, but so what in conventional.  If at full voltage, the waveform won't be distorted as much anyway.

Even if a transformer chops the wave, it also matters how it is chopped by the electronics.  The MTH transformers tend to be closer to pure sign wave and work great with MTH trains.  I do not agree with saying the Lionel chopped wave is better for MTH PS-2.  The CW-80 certainly is not.

What I recently found is that the K-Line 120W Power Chief can operate all the PS-2 features in conventional.  So it's chopped wave is probably closer to MTH Z-1000 then Lionels CW-80.  The PM or Modern ZW will not operate MTH PS-2 features in conventional.

The ultimate question is can you really see a difference?  Is this like buying a stereo that produce sounds all the way to 20KHz even though your hearing is shot:-)  G

Ted, thanks for that.  Despite all the talk about the benefits of a chopped sine wave, I just don't see it.  I like for my trains to run smoothly at slow speeds, and every one of my locomotives - postwar, modern conventional, TMCC with ERR cruise, TMCC with K-Line cruise, and PS2 - every one runs more smoothly under conventional control with a pure sine wave.  I actually did tests where I had each locomotive pull the same load around a loop of track at the slowest speed it could run before stalling, and the results were all the same: on a chopped wave, they sped up on the straight track/downgrades, and bogged down badly on curves/upgrades.  On a pure wave, they maintained a more consistent and slower speed.  Either way, they make too much smoke and stink up my house.  For me, it's a done deal.

Perhaps some people are confused because 6-7 volts is just too high a starting voltage to get smooth starts on a lot of engines - you need something that starts lower.

Hi guys,

As Ted said, most of what is in Mike Reagan's video can/should be ignored.  He's putting the best shade of orange lipstick he can find on a pig of a circuit design.  In Mike and Jon Z's defense, the problem with Lionel's smoke and coupler circuits long pre-dates either of them.  However, they have not chosen so far to correct the design either.

There are two useful segments in Mike's video that accurately explain why Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines are different.  At 5:27 Mike explains that the Lionel engines use capacitors charged directly by track voltage to operate the heating element in the smoke unit and the coupler solenoid.  The useful section ends at 6:35.

What Mike failed to include in his video is that when you drop below 9 volts the peak of the chopped sine wave also drops below 18 volts.  At lower voltages all of the chopped sine wave transformers will have the same trouble getting good smoke output and coupler operation from TMCC and Legacy engines.  The problem is in the design of the smoke and coupler circuits, not the transformers.  The chopped sign wave does a bit better at covering for the bad design, but they can't mask the problem across the entire voltage range.  From 15:51 to 21:45 in the video Mike demonstrates the effect of the chopped sign wave on a Legacy diesel.

You will note he performs the demo at 15.5 volts.  At 15.5 volts he is getting nearly the biggest spread in peak voltage as he can get between the smooth and chopped transformers.  If he performed the comparison at 18 volts the difference would be much smaller.  At 20 volts there is little or no difference.  If he dropped the voltage to 8 volts, where Legacy engines start to move in conventional mode, neither transformer would induce much smoke or operate the couplers.  This is particularly problematic for coupler operation.  You can't slow the engine to a stall and blow the coupler.  You must stop, cycle to neutral, and increase the voltage to at least 10 volts to get good operation with a CW-80 or any other Lionel chopper wave transformer.  Lionel could easily correct this short coming in their design by placing a voltage doubler circuit between the track power rectifier and the smoke and coupler capacitors.  Such a design change would require less than 10¢ in component parts and wouldn't violate any patents.   This would greatly improve the performance of their smoke units and couplers on all transformers, chopped or pure sine wave.  Instead, they seem to have chosen to use their poor design as an excuse to sell more transformers.

In contrast to Lionel's design which is dependent on peak track voltage, MTH runs their smoke units and couplers off of regulated DC voltage from the PS2 and PS3 boards.  Smoke volume is controlled with pulse width modulation.  Both circuits are designed to operate on less voltage than is required to make the engine move in conventional mode.  As a result, PS2 and PS3 engines operate well on both smooth and chopped sine transformers.

The rest of Mike's video tries to mislead about the amperage capacity of different transformers.  The idea that one throttle of a post war ZW can only handle 3.44 amps is total BS and Mike knows it.  He's implying that the operator will always have an exactly equal load on all four throttles at the same time.  In actuality any one of the four throttles on a post war ZW can handle the full 13.75 amp output, which is still more amperage than a Z-4000, ZW-C, or ZW-L will every permit because of UL limits.  He also implies that a Z-4000 will only output 8 amps.  That too is untrue.  A Z-4000 will give you 10 amps out of each throttle at the same time.  Other than the two clips I referenced above, Mike could easily take most of the video on transformers and use it for his next April 1st installment.  If you can stretch track, why not stretch the truth on why Lionel smoke units don't. 

Dave, the first too links are bad to the videos.

.... sounds like Mike and Jon are nothing more than a couple of glorified used car salesmen.... what a shame

No, Mike's a good guy who's trying to put the orangest spin possible on a bright yellow lemon.  I gave him some pretty good ribbing for that video and he took it well.  He's helping conventional operators get the most out of their Legacy engines which were designed for command control.  Other engines were designed for both.

Just remember when Mike R. and Jon Z. are being accused of putting an extreme orange spin on things, it is only fair to note that the Hikels might have reason to put an extreme purple spin on things .  Let those amongst the industry or affiliates who are without sin cast the first stone.  You can be fairly certain that neither Jon nor Mike are going to respond here or criticize MTH systems and their failings in public.  Apparently those with business arrangements with MTH have no such compunction. 

Full disclosure: FYI, I have no professional dealings with anyone in the industry whatever; just a non-technically expert consumer, but one who knows special pleading when he hears it.  I read those with business arrangements with MTH (you know who they are) occasionally bad mouthing Lionel here on the OGR Forum.  I do not have a manual to sell for DCS or Legacy.  Or conventional.  I do not act as a beta tester, develop software or have any type of a business arrangement with Lionel, or Weaver, or Atlas, or 3rd Rail, or anyone else in the toy train industry.

Dave Hikel wrote

"He's implying that the operator will always have an exactly equal load on all four throttles at the same time.  In actuality any one of the four throttles on a post war ZW can handle the full 13.75 amp output, which is still more amperage than a Z-4000, ZW-C, or ZW-L will every permit because of UL limits."

No way you get 13.75 amps out of a PWZW. The 275 watts is input rating not output. You might get 11 amps at best continuous.

I agree with most else said. The videos while they contain some facts are misleading at best. This does not say that the transformer itself is a bad design or "lipstick on a pig design". No basis at all for that opinion.  It is a Lionel transformer designed to work with modern Lionel products.  The review in OGR was interesting and mostly positive. However there was some compatibility issues with older electronics. So,as a conventional operator, I will stick with my PWZWs for now,but this transformer is a good choice for some operators. The jury is out on its long term reliability

Dale H

Feel free to call me out whenever you think I'm being biased.  If you think my business relationships induce error in my technical analysis please post where you think I am in error.  I have been wrong many times in my life and on this forum.  If you believe I am in error regarding the function of Lionel smoke units and couplers please share your insights.

I posted on this forum long before I had any business relationship with MTH and I will continue to do so now and in the future.  My relationship with MTH is quite a bit different than Mike or Jon's relationship with Lionel.  I am not an employee of MTH.  The only time I have ever received money from MTH was in return for two display layouts that are currently touring Europe.  I make my living providing service to hobbyists.  It is in my best interest personally and financially to provide objective and credible advice.  My clients are best served when I have the most accurate information regarding the capabilities of all products from all companies.  I have offered my testing services and opinions to numerous manufactures free of charge in order to have early access to information that can benefit my clients.  My opinions have also been solicited by numerous manufacturers including both MTH and Lionel.  I understand that some people will never believe that my opinion is or ever could be objective because of my business relationships.  Fortunately for me my clients and numerous manufacturers do see value in my opinion.

Ted, on the other hand, has no business relationship with MTH what so ever beyond being a frequent customer.

True enough, I stand corrected.  You can draw over 13 amps for short periods of time because of the slow reaction time of the breakers but you certainly can't draw 13 amps continuously.

My other comments about colored spin and "lipstick" are offered in jest.  I should probably add some more emoticons to make that clearer.  On the forum many people get very worked up over brand loyalty.  What many don't realize is how collegial the relationship is among many of the people from different manufacturers.  Mike's april fools video is an excellent example of the sense of humor that many in the industry share.

You can be fairly certain that neither Jon nor Mike are going to respond here or criticize MTH systems and their failings in public.

Landsteiner

Have you ever been to a Legacy breakfast or grand stand meet? 

Ted, on the other hand, has no business relationship with MTH what so ever beyond being a frequent customer.

Make that a satisfied frequent customer of MTH.  And Atlas, Lionel and Weaver too.

But if I did have some sort of relationship with any manufacturer, say as an unpaid beta tester or made some other sort of technical contribution I can't see how being better informed would make my opinion less valuable. 

"Back in the day" (read late 1990's) the chopped sine wave output of the Lionel Powermasters which provided variable voltage to the tracks wreaked havoc on QSI-based sound/reverse units. The fix was to install a 100uf NON-POLARIZED electrolytic capacitor across the hot/common leads. This took the sharpness out of the wave peaks -- i.e., smoothed the return to zero. This worked with most of the QSI-equipped locomotives, with a few exceptions. Using two of them in parallel worked a little better.

Fast forward to now. If you're running conventional using the TIU's variable channels or some of the MTH brick controllers on the Z750's and Z500's, this technique should still be viable for cleaning up the output. Not a perfect solution, but inexpensive enough to experiment with.

As for smoke units, every fan-driven smoke unit I've seen uses a small DC can motor. Therefore the AC input sine wave is pretty much irrelevant since it would be passing through a bridge rectifier and an electrolytic capacitor (and in all likelihood a voltage regulator) to generate the DC to drive the fan. Any reference to one AC transformer being better or worse than another is pretty much someone drinking the Kool Aid -- either Grape or Orange.

Why yes Ted I have. As a matter of fact all of them.

What's are you saying?  Since it's the Legacy Breakfast the focus is on Lionel and Legacy and MTH and DCS is rarely brought up unless it pertains to Legacy operations.  Just curious as to what you are saying?

Have you ever been to a Legacy breakfast ?

I think this whole conversation illustrates the need for some kind of standardization and cooperation between the companies. The power company makes a pure sine wave,maybe we should just stick to it. 

Too bad too that one remote control system could not be used for all trains. Neither company seems to make good electronic devices.  The only universal system now is conventional. 

Too bad users of DCS need a 400 page or whatever manual printed by someone who does not even work for the company and have to add light bulbs not even supplied with the system and guess at values. Not really engineering. Einstein explained relativity in about 180 pages, seems that should be more complicated than hooking up a model train. . 

Dale H

Dale,

Too bad users of DCS need a 400 page or whatever manual printed by someone who does not even work for the company and have to add light bulbs not even supplied with the system and guess at values.

C'mon, get over it.

If you're going to wish for things, try for something important, like world peace or an end to hunger.

Regardless, why not try using things and reading 215 page books before criticizing them?

Geez I hate when these threads degrade.  I've seen Barry's book, and the reality is most DCS users probably need a fraction of what's in it.  It covers a lot of good information that MTH doesn't.  And for $12 it's probably under priced for the amount of info you get.

But after re-reading Dale's post I think his dissatisfaction is more aimed at the manufacturer's inability to set some standards rather than more division.

Nice to know I have a future job opportunity when Lionel hands me my walking papers

Gee I apologize Barry. Only 215 pages so it is only as hard as relativity or 35 pages at best harder. I thought DCS was more difficult but it is on equal footing.  

I will have to get out my old texts and brush up on Maxwells equations. 

Lighten up we are playing with toys here.

Dale H

"On the forum many people get very worked up over brand loyalty."

There's a difference between getting worked up and not acknowledging personal or business relationships, or one's own preferences/biases.  It's obvious to anyone who has been paying attention  that certain experts here have strong personal, as well as professional ties with MTH, and their preference for MTH is not weak, hard to detect, nor irrelevant to their occasional critical comments about Lionel products or Lionel employees. 

None of this is problematic.  What is problematic to me is critical comments being made and demanding that these comments be seen as entirely objective, dispassionate and "factual,"  when they are strongly influenced by your personal preferences/biases.  Biases and preferences are desirable, a fact of life, but pretending they don't exist is misleading as well as offensive to the common sense of the reader.  If people don't fully trust your opinions, and they don't, it's not the fault of your stars, but yourselves.  One can develop a reputation for shooting the messenger rather than listening to the message,  and considering whatever validity it may have. 

You and your brother have called into question the design capabilities of Jon Zahornacky and the ethics of Mike Reagan.  You have never done so for individuals employed by MTH. Big shockeroo .  The readers will draw their own conclusions.  If you are a person of such good will, you might consider apologizing.  If not people will  certainly understand.

The TIU, as designed, has a starting voltage in variable mode that is too high for some modern locomotives, and the result is sometimes jack-rabbit type starts.

Not quite correct.  The factor that causes conventional locos to move too fast is the spread between the TIU input voltage and the TIU output voltage.  When the variable circuit of the TIU has to drop the voltage by a greater amount, the AC wave becomes very flat.  Drop the input voltage and the jack rabbit will more accurately emulate a tortoise.

Dale: DCS does so much that many users want a manual describing all that it does.  For simplicity, one can always go back to the Lionel electromagnetic e-unit, and I could give you stories about them

Webmaster:  It's time to kill this thread.

I'll have to agree that the starting voltage for conventional operation with the DCS system is too high for certain locomotives.  That would actually be a pretty easy software fix for MTH if they were so inclined.  I've heard mention of it possibly showing up in a future update, but nobody knows when or if such an update is coming.

 I have never denied or concealed my relationship with MTH.  That relationship has changed over the years and I have always acknowledged the relationship as it existed.

 They are indeed influenced by my person preference and bias in favor of interoperability between command and conventional environments.  Lionel has produced smoke units and couplers that are outliers in the hobby that require specific transformers to operate well in conventional mode.  Lionel had produced many of these outlier engines before Jon and Mike became employees of Lionel.  They're doing the best they can to service product that is already out there.

 Clearly you don't.  I don't expect to convince you otherwise because you have clearly made up your mind.  However, others do trust my opinion and I will defend my integrity from you or anyone else who calls it into question.

 I would never question Jon's capabilities.  He's a much more accomplished hardware guy than I am.  I am, however, puzzled by the fact that he has not yet altered the design of the smoke unit and coupler circuits for current production engines.  That's an engineering choice and an interesting one.

I don't question Mike's ethics, just his spin.  I don't think it's unethical to put the best light on your own product.  I also don't think you should be surprised when others question the lighting.  

On the contrary.  Not only have I questioned the engineering choices of MTH employees on this forum, shockeroo, I've done it at the MTH booth at York while giving clinics.  A few years ago I was asked by Andy Edleman (VP of Marketing) if I would give clinics on ScaleTrax at their booth.  I agreed to do so ONLY if I could be candid about all aspects of the product, good and bad.  There are a number of problems with the ScaleTrax switches which have been discussed on this forum and I cover these issues in some detail in the clinic.  Since then I have also developed a clinic on accessory wiring.  In that clinic I have some pretty disparaging remarks about the MTH ITAD.  I don't know who at the company specifically designed that product, but it is a horrible engineering effort.  If it were up to me it would be redesigned or eliminated from the product line.  I don't think it is unethical for MTH to continue selling the ITAD, but I sure don't recommend them to my clients or anyone who asks about them.

FYI, my criticism is not now, nor has it ever been limited to Lionel and MTH.  The first time I attended York coincided with Atlas' first announcement of the CA Zephyr cars.  The original design of those cars made no provision for track power operation of the lighting.  I regarded this as a mistake and I said so to Jim Weaver.  I'm sure I wasn't the only one to make this observation to Jim, but at the end of our conversation Jim had changed his mind about battery only operation of the LED lighting.  Bear Owen was present for this conversation and can verify the account.

My real point in these accounts is that O gauge manufacturing is a small enough community of people that some good natured ribbing can make good things happen.  If giving Mike and Jon some grief for the chopped wave transformer video prods them to better circuit design for the smoke unit and couplers we will all be better off, and so will my clients who purchase and operate many Lionel trains.

I too agree the starting voltage is too high.  I also would like to see greater resolution than 1/2 volt increments.

This is one place where I now get to wear both hats.  I not only criticize the performance, but I get to directly take action.  As I mentioned at the DCS user group dinner, both lower starting voltage and finer voltage resolution will be included in the DCS mobile app.  I can't say if MTH will add this capability to the DCS remote.  

Dave,

Thanks for your detailed and calm explanation of your position.  A good example that hopefully all can follow when their views are challenged.  Civility is always the best policy.  You have earned my respect, which may or may not matter to you .

Landsteiner, I don't see your name in any of your posts above but I would like to say 'Thank you' for your statement quoted here.  (bold type emphasized by me) 

As the OP of this thread I was becoming concerned with some of the comments but am heartened with your statement and also felt that Dave Hikel made a good presentation and adequately explained the rationale for his statements.

I've not had the pleasure of meeting Jon Z yet but have met and spoken with Dave H and Mike Reagan. Both very personable and knowledgeable men and great contributors to the hobby.  

Personally, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed here and I've learned quite a bit from the discussion. As a relative electronics novice, this has been most enlightening!

Too bad you can't "push" MTH into fixing it for the DCS system remote, since many of us won't be using the DCS mobile app.

John,

Too bad you can't "push" MTH into fixing it for the DCS system remote, since many of us won't be using the DCS mobile app.

FWIW, this was placed on a list of requests for a future DCS release, some time ago.

Put on a list and some time ago being the operative words.

Believe me John, it's not for lack of trying.  I have pushed pretty hard for these changes and several others in the DCS firmware.  Some mules are just more stubborn than others.  That's not to say I've given up!

Keep kicking the mule!

Okay, I'm confused now, which isn't hard when it come to electricity (I'm a mechanical engineer, that electric stuff is all black magic.).  A couple of years ago I got into O-gauge after getting my son a nice Marx set for uber cheap at a thrift store (Still in original box.).  So I got a MTH Protosound Dreyfuss from ebay for myself.  I read about low battery issues, so I went to my local MTH shop to get one, and got a tounge lashing for getting it instead of a nice new PS2 loco (Because only morons buy PS1 locos it seems.).  I wasn't planning on doing command, so a PS1 was perfect (I've gotten more and love them all!).  But he did tell me that PS2 locos will not work on chopped sine wave transformers like my CW-80 (Which he also said were bad and that only fools use them, but I also love it.  I must really be a stupidkin I guess.).  Yet I'm reading here that PS2 locos work better on chopped wave transformers?  Can someone explain please.

I don't think anyone here said chop wave is better.  Your PS-1 will work better with pure AC.  If it works with your CW-80 and you have reliable whistle/bell and can activate couplers and station sounds then no worries.  There were bad runs of CW-80 that had various failures.  G

Hi Sinclair,

GGG has the right advice.  If it's work for you don't mess.

It sounds like your dealer was a little un-clear about the issues with CW-80's.  PS2's will work fine with either chopped or pure sign wave transformers.  They are very tolerant of almost any AC transformer.  There are three main issues with CW-80's.  The first one has nothing to do with any particular brand or model of engines.  Early production runs of CW-80's had a very high failure rate.  That gave them a bad reputation.  Most of the reliability issues have been resolved.  The second problem with CW's does relate to Protosound and PS2 engines in conventional mode.  The CW-80's overload protection and direction button don't work like any other transformer on the market.  They don't completely disconnect output voltage.  That makes it difficult for some PS1 and PS2 engines running on some CW-80's to cycle their E-unit.  The third issue is that the CW-80's bell and whistle buttons don't put out as clean a DC off set as other transformers.  A lot of PS1 and PS2 engines have trouble distinguishing bell and whistle commands from CW-80's, but not all.

So, in theory, I could get a PS2 locomotive and it'd work just fine?  They told me that PS2 locomotives would just sit there and do nothing, going into a self protect mode.  Perhaps the locomotives are just really not understanding the direction signal.  As for bell and horn issues I do have that problem on one locomotive, but with a TMCC equipped K-Line Titan Big Boy.  I did have one PS1 locomotive have issues, but that was on a length of straight track.  Once I put it on a loop, it functioned flawlessly.  This is good info, thanks.