Installing ERR's AC Commander in Lionel CC Locomotives

Gentlemen, thank you for the feedback.  I think I am going to give it a shot.  The AC Commanders are only $70 each.  Chris

Check with Boxcar Bill here in the forum, he's an ERR distributor and I think you'll get a slightly better price from him on the AC Commander.

Check the CC Berk. It has insulated rails so you can use them for the antenna. You might also be able to put the run/program switch just in front of the backhead and could have easy access.

There may be a mounting hole for the switch if it has insulated railings.

I did not see one but will look.

I would just use the RUN/LOCK switch which is already on the engine use white out to cover up and change the lettering to RUN/PROG.

I don't think that price includes the R2LC receiver board. The ERR website lists an R4LC at $40 but I did not find an R2LC listed

Actually, the R2LC is always included with the Cruise Commander, and it's been with every one I've ever purchased from any source.

Since you won't need the Run/Lock switch for command, that's a good suggestion, it's a perfect place for the Run/Pgm switch.

The price actually does include the R4LC.

I put one in and I can second all the above.  I did a postwar NW with electrocouplers, Jon told me that they couldn't be trusted to stay shut and he was right.  Didn't matter much to me, and I don't know if it even applies with your stock. 

I've had good luck putting a 1uf 50v NP cap across the couplers for random opening.

Also, remember that sometimes coupler openings are a mechanical issue, first test is to unplug the coupler from the electronics and see if it still opens during use. 

I have installed probably a dozen Cruise Commanders, and I don't have issues with the couplers after adding the cap on any of them.  A couple required replacement for obvious mechanical issues.

I had a Cruise M board installed in my Williams Scale GG1 along with RS 5.0 and it did not come with a receiver board.

Did not need it anyway since I only needed the Cruise M board to replace the Odyssey board since I was not going to try to have the flywheel modified with a tack strip. The receiver board was part of the GG1 RS 5.0 electronics.

The Cruise Commander M is a totally different product and is specifically made to directly replace the DCDR or DCDR-S motor driver board.  The assumption with the CCM is you have a working TMCC installation, including the R2LC.

The Cruise Commander is a complete upgrade for a bare locomotive with DC motors.

I think since it is RS5.0 that it might be an R4LC and not an R2LC. But I could be wrong.

The rails are definitely insulated along with the section where the rails go into the hole in the cow catcher so that solves one issue.

The CCM doesn't care if it's an R2LC or an R4LC, it just receives the basic PWM signals and the TMCC command stream on the added wire to the TMCC board.  In truth, the Cruise Commander (not the M model) now ships with the R4LC board, but it still has the C08 firmware loaded, I have one of those on the bench right now.

Another thing. The whistle and bell functions in the tender operate independently of the engine even in command so there will not be any need for any other electronics to operate the sounds.

I checked it out by putting the tender on the track in command mode and could operate both the whistle and bell with my CAB1 remote.

Uhh... Not with the command version of RailSounds installed.  The commands for it come from the R2LC (or R4LC) and not from the track.  Since there is no TMCC receiver in the audio or power board for the RailSounds package, it's not possible to receive the TMCC whistle/bell commands with the tender along for a command model.

The only way that the tender on the tracks along can respond is if it thinks it's in conventional mode and it's seeing the DC offsets on the track for either the whistle or bell.  If it's not connected to a locomotive, it would indeed believe it was in conventional mode.  That's the only way the whistle or bell is being activated.

I don't know what you're testing, but I've put together a lot of upgrade packages, and I can assure you that the TMCC command will not be received by the tender directly.  That also applies to OEM products from Lionel that have RailSounds in the tender.

Well in a way you are right. I just reviewed what I did and I can operate both the whistle and bell using the CAB1. What I found out was that I had my TPC programmed in what we used to refer to as the MTH mode. This was used when we were doing the TMCC demos at train shows and other venues for Lionel that allowed us to operate MTH PS2 engines with the TPC's.

My TPC 300's are programmed as engine 1 and 2, although they could be any engine number not in use. I then programmed my outerloop as engine one, hit the "M" button and then set. What this did was set the TPC into conventional mode.

If you want to operate a conventional engine like the CC Berk you press AUX1 8 to put 30% power to the track which will allow you to operate conventional engines like the CC Berk.

If you want to operate a command engine you hit AUX1 9 to energize the track and you will have full voltage and can then address a command engine by addressing it's engine number and press any button and it will start up and receive the command signal and be controlled by the CAB 1 or your Legacy remote.

In the former scenario you would be operating in what Lionel refers to as "transitional command control" to allow both a conventional and a command engine to operate on the same track. The speed of the command engine will be restricted to the amount of voltage put to the track to operate the conventional engine.

Your are right that if the track is in command mode or you have address a command engine and you then put the CC Berk tender on the track and hit either "W" or "B" there is no response. However if you toggle back to Engine 1, which is what the TPC is programmed for, then hit "W" or "B" the CC Berk tender will respond.

So, in conclusion. If you convert the CC Berk or perhaps any other engine to command using the ERR AC Commander you will only be able to get the sounds of the whistle, bell or horn by programming a TPC as an engine with a number different from the converted engine and then toggle back and forth using the sticky key function of the TMCC/Legacy system.

Sounds confusing but I doubt if there is any other way short of installing some type of Railsounds. The Berk tender has such a sweet whistle that I think most who decide to convert the engine to command won't mind having to toggle back and forth. However if you don't have TPC's none of it will work so that is another caveat.

Interesting way to run it, but it makes sense as the TPC is indeed putting the DC offset on to trigger the whistle/bell.

You might be able to still buy the command RS4 board from Lionel, they do have some boards listed on the website.  I suspect most folks won't have a TPC in the mix if they're running command.

One of the reasons I started into the MTH stuff was that I could load multiple sound files to get different sounds and capabilities, with the TMCC conversions, you're limited to a very few generic sounds.  This is a major failing of the Lionel upgrade market.

I greatly appreciate the feedback provided thus far.  Admittedly, one thing I hadn't thought about was the whistle and bell in the CC Berk, and presumably the horn in the CC F-3, not functioning after the conversion.  Thanks for pointing this out. The work around described by Trainman9 is an option, but less than ideal.  Honestly, I don't understand why Lionel didn'tengineer these locomotives to accept TMCC in a more straight foward fashion.  My other option is to find a Berk from the Postwar Celebration Series which already has TMCC and Railsounds installed.

IIRC the ERR Commanders *do* have a whistle/horn output.  No bell, sadly.

>I've had good luck putting a 1uf 50v NP cap across the couplers for random opening.

But were they isolated coils?  Mine are grounded on one end.  Now I am remembering this from a loooonnnnnggg time ago, but I never tried the caps because Jon said, paraphasing "caps won't help you, if they did you wouldn't need them because the Commander already has them".

So did you actually have (and solve) coupler opening problems on a Commander-equipped engine?

The method might still work if you have a Lionel PowerMaster. They are programmed as tracks and you can toggle back and forth using the sticky key approach.

My guess is that Lionel views these engines as remakes of original PW Conventional engines hence the name Conventional Classics. The intent was to replicate as close as possible to the PW production and in the case of the CC Berk they came very very close.

So, I plan to upgrade to command and just toggle back and forth between engine numbers when I want to access the whistle and bell. They are just too good not to.

Anyone who operates more than one command engine already does this anyway.

However, as was pointed out to my by the CTO of Lionel, the Cruise Commander does NOT have that output.  Only the AC or DC Commander has the option.

Yes I did.  Also, almost any electrocoupler on a TMCC engine is frame ground on one side, at least I haven't found any that aren't.

>Cruise Commander does NOT

Good to know.  TA had a Railsounds whistle/bell converter but it seemed so expensive then... now  I wish I had bought a 100 of them to resell at a good profit.

>Yes I did.

Well thanks, then I will certainly give them a shot.  Hasn't been a real big deal because the engine normally just shunts cars but it would be nice to send it out on the oval occasionally without having to watch it like a hawk, small kids seem to always want that.

>Also, almost any electrocoupler on a TMCC engine is frame ground on one side

I never bothered to trace thru, I just knew that the couplers had a 2-pin plug so I thought maybe they floated somehow.

I have a Cruise Commander & RailSounds Commander in an MTH Camelback, I added the 1uf cap when it kept dropping it's cars, it would rarely go five minutes before opening the coupler.  It's never failed since the addition of the cap.

Haha yes 5min seems just about right... just long enough for you to let down your guard!! 

Lee?

engine harness including the 10 pin socket is PN BC-1000003
tender harness including the 10 pin plug is PN BC-1000002

They are noisy runners so I'd listen to it run before buying. They do have a nice sound package for its day and whistle sounds like the one in the referenced this CC Berkshire thread.

Chris,

With the older Pere Marquette, the "Steam Railsounds" in the tender are independent of the engine.  So, after conversion with the AC Commander, the whistle and bell still work when activated by transformer buttons, even when operated in command mode.  I don't know if the sound system in the CC Berkshire is setup the same way.  If so, I would guess the whistle and bell might work the same way.  

George

No, they sounds in the CC Berk tender only respond when in conventional mode. It is possible to just toggle back and forth but it is an additional step.

I might try hooking up an Atlas 80 watt transformer and see if the whistle or bell button works. That might be a more workable alternative.

If it does you might just need to connect one of the Lionel sound activation buttons to access the whistle and bell.

When in command mode, most Railsounds boards don't respond to any track whistle/bell commands.  Are you not wiring the serial data from the AC Commander to the Rail Sounds package?

If the sound board in the tender is not tethered to the engine the whistle and bell might still respond to transformer buttons (not Cab1 or cab2 buttons), since the soundboard is likely stand alone coventional.

George

Correct, but wouldn't you lose other command functions?  Things like the rear tender light and electrocoupler are triggered by the serial data stream from the R2LC in the locomotive.

How about chuff, is that done on the tender truck?

Tried hooking up an Atlas transformer and powered up the track under command. Pressed whistle and bell button on transformer and nothing. So it does not work either.

Seen results posted below.

I see no results posted below.