Interesting Change to the Lionel Product Finder

Interesting indeed!!!

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Andre

Hmmm...

 

Rusty

Now all we need is some scale product to search for

Oh, my.  Do I detect a little tease?

 

Rusty

The more the better for me Jon

 

Ive been meaning to ask you... Can the Legacy and Railsounds components be shrunk any further? What I really wonder is if we will ever see smaller engines than what we have today? I'm in for a Y3, a couple SD70s, and a U33 so far but what I would like to know is if we have any chance of any 1st or 2nd gen diesels? It would be a real shame if it can't be done just because the electronics won't fit. Can you give us a "peek" into the crystal ball?

 

Thanks.

It has become apparent that Lionel is in the process of establishing two product lines for their S gauge trains.   The AF based trains have been around since the first three freight cars were unveiled in 1979.

 

The new stuff is an attempt at establishing an S scale line and owes little or nothing to the previous A F designs.  I think the U-33 Cs I just bought are wonderful examples of this.  Putting Legacy in the new diesels seems to be a big step toward establishing it as a command control standard for Lionel S scale trains.  It is a more advanced system than DCC and much less "geeky" to use in my opinion.

 

The new solid "T" rail FasTrack is also a welcome addition to the Line.

 

Ed Boyle

The Electronics can be miniaturized a bit more.  The RailSounds just underwent a revision, and I think it could have been smaller if we had moved to smaller parts such as 0402 resistors and leadless (QFN) chips.  We need to get buy in from the PCB subcontractor for such a change to our designs.  The motor driver can be smaller in some cases, depends on current requirements.  The TMCC  Radio, is about as small as it gets; the 455khz filter parts are fairly large.

 

My goal is to have a smaller electronics package sometime next year, so that in 2014 we could realize smaller loco support.  We may have limit the driven wheels to only one truck in locos like the GP7/9 body style (1/2 of a China drive!, heh)

 

I have a question for the folks here on this thread... I am toying with a DCC decoder (derived from a design I created 8 years ago!) as a swap for our TMCC radio board.  If successful, a one board swap out without any wiring changes would allow DCC support with our current motor, smoke, and light controller; and also link to the RailSounds system.  Would folks be willing to purchase the "DCC adapter" to plug and play upgrade locos such as the SD-70, Y3, U33?  Figure costs at $50/board for evaluation of the concept.  No promises, just exploratory feedback - as I may run into some technical issues in the current board set that prevent this concept from working out...

 

Thanks for asking, Jon.  Hope your successful in minimizing the electronics further.

 

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't mind a "plug n' play" DCC compatibility plug factory installed future products. 

 

I'd be less interested in retrofitting already existing products.  I deal with production electronics repairs (some using the dreaded 0402 sized components) all day at work and tearing into something and wiring a plug and harness assembly is not so attractive to me anymore.

 

As I said, I'm speaking only for myself.

 

Rusty

Thanks Jon.

 

I for one am fine With a single powered truck if it means smaller engines are possible. If power is needed I'll just have to buy twice as many engines  

 

I can't speak for the whole scale crowd, but I think what you describe is a great idea. Even if there is a price tag associated with it. So it would be possible to use a DCC decoder, but retain Railsounds? That is VERY interesting. As I said before, in my opinion, flexibility is key. If you have Vision style pilots, scale wheels, DCC option, Railsounds, smaller engines, and possibly scale wheeled steam I don't see any reason why Lionel wouldn't just flat out dominate the entire S market. 

 

Personally, I want to run Legacy. I am happy to see the option of DCC being discussed for the scale crowd that is already invested in that system. I would also like to see the flip side in the form of Legacy/RS upgrade kits too.

 

Thanks again for taking our opinions into consideration! I am really getting excited about the next few years in S. Glad I got on board when I did!

Hi SantaFeFan,

 

First I’ll address the single motor drive as it applies to me.  Since there are a plethora of engines left out there to make in plastic in the 4 axle vein, single motors would be acceptable if they don’t run like slot cars.  But of course if they are offered as non powered units I’d sure like that.  Then I would repower them to my liking without all the electronics associated with Lionel.  Don’t get me wrong, I like TMCC the first time I saw it but that was 15 yrs ago.  I also was predominantly a 3 rail O scale modeler.  Also I ran plenty of trains with Lionel single motor GP’s and FA’s and when I wanted to pull more, I added additional units.  IMO the single motor GP’s offered by MPC in the late 70’s and early 80’s pulled realistic numbers of cars as the prototype.  So single power trucks not geared to go fast would actually be fine for me.  My layout isn’t intended to pull huge trains and never will be.  Smoke and sound don’t do it for me either.  I’ve worked on the WP then UP since 1979 and the sound can’t be replicated on board to what I’ve experienced my working career on the railroad.  Actually after spending 8 – 12 hours on the real thing, coming home to quiet models is what I want.  I would be interested in the DCC / TMCC board swap, for ease of conversion if nothing else. 

 

Lionel’s entrance to S scale is a good thing.  There are plenty of choices of equipment to be made that can go scale or AF compatible merely by the choice of wheels.  SHS and AM have done it. 

 

Question, will Lionel be putting TMCC in the AF Baldwin switcher? 

 

Greg Elems

 

 

 

 

 

Jon,

 

Of course, there is only a small portion S Scalers present on the OGR board who run either DC or DCC.

 

This is a question that perhaps should be asked on the YaHoo S Scale board.  I know there's a couple of belicose "nattering nabobs of negativism" about Scale Flyer over there, but the bulk of the folks there are reasonable.  I'd be willing to copy the above part of your post over there tonight and ask for their input.

 

The question is how to contact you.  Last time, I suggested using "Talk to Us" and ask the message be forwarded to Jon-CTO. 

 

Is this the best way to contact you?  I won't pass along your email address in OGR's member profile without your permission.

 

Rusty

Jon,

 

Delighted to hear the improvements you are contemplating with Lionel S Scale.  I am sure the option of using DCC would widen the appeal of the line with S scalers.

 

One of things I would very much like to do is put either Legacy or TMCC, preferably Legacy & RailSounds, in some of my earlier Lionel/AF engines.  The thought of modifying some of the PAs that head passenger trains is especially appealing. I have stopped buying GP-7/9s because there is no command control option.

 

Ed boyle

Jon,

 

Thanks for asking about this topic.  Here is my opinion: I could would be fine with either the single motor configuration you mentioned above or having command and two motors in one unit and the railsounds in a dummy B unit, similar to the way the PWC style F-units are set up in 3 rail.   In the case of a GP 7/9, I would buy more than one anyway.  If a GP 7/9 is on the drawing board, if it can be made with the same level of detail as Lionel's O scale verisons, then I wold say that it would be a home run!

 

In regards to DCC, personally, I have no interest in it whatsoever and would go out of my way to avoid using it, but can see the appeal to others who are in need of a common control system to run Lionel's new products and their existing trains.  

Rusty, I would appreciate the Posting on the Yahoo S Scale board.  You can use my forum email, or the Talk to Us address works as well as they route to me.

 

Folks, I truly appreciate the feedback I see posted.  I take it to heart, and it will reflect in our products where possible.

 

jon

The direction of the development of Lionel's AF line toward a scale friendly stance is very encouraging and exciting.  For myself, a more scale influence is a positive thing and the possibility of offering a DCC add on is very appealing.

 

Two questions come to mind:

1.  As the DCC board would be an add on to the Legacy board (as I understand your post), would the primary power source still be AC?  If so, this would be a distraction for me.

 

2.  Would it be possible to offer the DCC plug in to a Legacy less, DC powered, locomotive?  This would be the most attractive alternative to me.

 

All things considered, S scale much better off with the current direction Lionel is taking in the S market than without it.  I applaud your efforts!

 

Roger

 

Thank you Jon,

 

I'll post the information tonight.

 

Rusty

I have been getting quite a few questions about changing TMCC to DCC especially in the U33's but other engines as well. I think this would work great for the people who want to change to or add DCC from a TMCC engine and still be able to use the Railsounds.

I cross-posted your comments to the facebook S Scale group as well Jon.

 

Thanks again for involving the communtiy.

 

Jonathan

I operate my 'S' equipment using DCC, or straight DC when the grandkids are over.

 

I changed out the motors on my old Flyer steam engines to the Timko DC can motors, then put the a 'G' decoder and a couple of relays in the tender. The function outputs of the decoder trigger the relays to turn the smoke and headlight on or off.

 

My S-Helper switchers got the scale wheels, Kadee couplers, and decoders installed almost as soon as they came out of the box.

 

Since it already had can motors, my "Flionel" NYC set PA got the e-unit yanked and a decoder installed before it hit the rails.

 

So, from my perspective, anything that makes it easier to switch 'S' equipment to DCC is a "good thing."

Agreed. A DCC-friendly option would be great for the hobby and for sales.

 

Moreover, being able to update older conventional Lionel-AF engines would be very desirable, particularly if the new 6-wheel drive trucks could be included. One route would be to extend the production run of the "guts" of the upcoming Texas Special PA's and sell the extra complete chassis (less the shell) as a separate sale item. Separate sale chassis could be used to retrofit original Gilbert PA's intended as operators, as well.

 

Bob Bubeck

Ed, You can add TMCC with Railsounds to the earlier Lionel/AF engines as i have been doing for the last 6 - 7 years including the GP-7/9's. Take a look at www.electricrr.com to see the different products that are available with the different sounds for both diesel and steam. To see some of the conversions that I have done take a look at www.goldinhands.com. Another good web site for S gauge is www.tuveson.com

1) The power would be DC or DCC, *not* AC.

 

2) yes we could consider a DCC socket.   I am not sure the best path right now, a DCC plug, or DCC support from Lionel as delivered.  The DCC path from Lionel would have many advantages; working Smoke, Railsounds, IR Track emitter, Legacy Quilling horn, ect.  Downside would be a Lionel designed DCC decoder, which is a relatively unknown product.  However, I have designed DCC decoders many years ago, and followed the NMRA spec, so one would believe we would be off to a good start...

Jon:

 

Thanks for the reply answering my concerns. 

 

There are so many different DCC decoders on the market today, one more would just give more options, a reason there are already so many decoder manufacturers in the market already.  The fact that it is developed by Lionel would not pose a problem unless the consumer already has a closed mind to what you are doing simply because it is branded Lionel.  I have enjoyed the railsounds from Lionel.  One possible advantage of this decoder being developed by Lionel could be the current capacity of the decoder.  Presently, most decoders used by S scalers run at 1 amp (usually HO), a current capacity of at least 2 amps would be preferable.  Lionel is (I believe) used to working with larger current draws and so would be more likely to produce a decoder that would work better with S.

 

I continue to be intrigued.

 

Roger

 

  

  The logical way to go if you want to capture the scale market is use the NMRA standard DCC plug so folks can just buy a decoder and plug it in. No reason to re-invent the wheel. Scale guys like off the shelf tsunami and loksound decoders better than proprietary stuff.  Just make scale locos without sound and with a DCC plug and folks can run them on DC or add decoders as they wish.

   More important than bells and whistles are a good running, slow speed gear ratio,and rugged  easily repaired  drive. Scale modelers are not afraid of doing a little work to customize a loco to their specs as long as the basic product is top quality.  SHS switchers are  a good example of how to build S locos for both scale and high rail use and please both groups.

  When thinking about S scale the goal should be to expand the S market beyond the number of present S participants by building something that will appeal to the HO crowd and the older O scalers who want to downsize their houses.

  I'm looking forward to new Lionel S scale modern freight cars as I've converted O scale Lionel  freight cars to 2 rail use in the past and found them top quality. I like the quality of Lionel scale O stuff but I like the size of the S stuff much better, I can fit a lot more railroad in the same space. ....Dave Branum    

The new S-gauge models recently introduced by Lionel certainly bring excitement to this scale. The fact that Lionel is also addressing the scale market with fine detailing, scale wheels, and coupler options is wonderful; but it does not go far enough yet to capture that market. Scale models run on DC current. Many have been enhanced to operate with DCC on DC current with the option to run older DC locomotives on the same rails without DCC signalling.

 

I have American Flyer, American Models, and S-Helper locomotives that all run on DC and a few Lionel-built American Flyer locomotives rewired to do the same. I can’t run the Challengers or U33C models unless I pull out TMCC modules and sacrifice most of the features—including the best sound effects available today—that are half the cost of the models. That’s too expensive and wasteful.  

 

Any DCC option would have to include the ability to run on DC. An even better solution might be to offer DC models at a lower price point with just the directional lighting enabled. The factory could include the smoke unit and the speaker to keep things simple so that if a buyer wanted to install DCC/DC, he or she could purchase the DCC module from Electric RR or other supplier. (If the Electric RR module could include Rail Sounds, that would be fantastic.) This method would cover every potential buyer: 1) the AC user in either conventional or TMCC mode; 2) the scale or high-rail user running DC who wants to add locomotives without investing in DCC; and the 3) the scale or high-rail user running DC who has some or all locomotives with DCC. The new choices are excellent in terms of locomotives, livery, and features. But too many of us are like the kids we used to be—looking through the store window at engines we can’t get. The DC choice with the optional DCC upgrade from Electric RR would be terrific.     

One other point...wouldn't it be simpler to just include a set of scale wheels in the box, similar to what SHS does, than have to make two seperate packages for scale and tin-plate wheels?

 

 

Jon,

 

I also cross-posted your initial comments into the new Lionel-Flyer group on Yahoo, located at:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lionel-Flyer/

 

I invite you and anyone else interested in Lionel's American Flyer line to come join as well.  Anyone can join and the group is un-moderated, so your posts go up onto the message board instantly.  It's a new and small group, but there is keen interest in what Lionel is doing with American Flyer.

 

Regards,

Tim (Lionel-Flyer list owner)

I'd like to see smaller electronics, not for S-scale, but rather to allow full Legacy functions with sound in small stuff like #41 switchers or the Dockside switcher.

I think this thread has deviated some what from its original direction but whatever. First, as someone who's intrest is in the original American Flyer I wish you would stop refering to S scale as Flyer. S scale is S scale, Flyer is not scale whether made by Gilbert or Lionel or whoever. Second, those of you that want scale equipment that runs on DC or DCC that is fine but I am concerned that you are going to destroy the Flyer market in your enthusiasm. It is already hard to get new switches that will work satisfactorily with the Flyer wheel flanges.

 

Al

I think this thread has deviated some what from its original direction but whatever. First, as someone who's intrest is in the original American Flyer I wish you would stop refering to S scale as Flyer. S scale is S scale, Flyer is not scale whether made by Gilbert or Lionel or whoever. Second, those of you that want scale equipment that runs on DC or DCC that is fine but I am concerned that you are going to destroy the Flyer market in your enthusiasm. It is already hard to get new switches that will work satisfactorily with the Flyer wheel flanges.

Thank you Al, it's what I've been trying to convey in another post and I'm pretty disgusted with converted O gaugers extolling the virtues of Lionel products not yet produced. What is scale anyway? I see real "scale" everyday in Albany, NY and it looks nothing like the pristine painted models produced by any manufacturer. The equipment is dirty, rusty and nothing like you can buy as a model. Give me a decent Hi-rail AF product that operates properly and I am happy as a clam. AND, it runs on real 2 rail track. That's all I need.

You know what... My mother taught me to keep my mouth shut if I didn't have anything nice to say.

 

I will say that I am not going to apoligize for what I like, what I want to buy, or what I want to talk about on a public internet forum. If you aren't interested in the topic, then why comment? It is easier to just ignore it. I don't want traditional Flyer personally, but I respect those that do and I even read their threads because I am always willing to learn from others. I would never think of posting disruptive posts in someone eles's thread that I really am not involved in. We have lots of Flyer guys on the facebook group and I really enjoy seeing their layouts.  Why is it that some people feel so threatened and are so intolerant?

 

I started this post, and I am the one that "derailed" it. I just apologized to myself... so we are all good.

 

Lionel has decided to make S scale products and that has generated a TON of interest from not only the S gauge community, but other gauges as well. I wasn't aware that this was a members only club. I guess I should have washed off the "stink" of O gauge first and picked up some postwar Flyer before I had the gall to post.

 

The fact of the matter is that there ARE people coming from other scales to buy these new S scale products from Lionel and they are buying a lot of product. Money will talk. S scale, or Flyonel scale or whatever you want to call it is going to boom. I am really excited about that. I can't wait for the next catalog. I have purchased two cases of Fastrack and a U33c so far. I have a pre-order in for a Y3a and SD-70s. As soon as the turnouts and cylindrical hoppers are released I will have a bunch of those too. I know I'm not the only one. If that doesn't excite you, I totally understand. You are free to start a thread of your own, but please don't come and wreck shop in mine.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan

  Scale is basically using more realistic proportions on wheels and couplers. Here's a Lionel O scale hopper, The S version will look quite similar....Dave Branum
  

 

Are you kidding me??!??  IMO, there has always been a strong intention to integrate scale dimensions into Flyer trains.  They are absolutely toy trains, but it sure seems to me that Gilbert drew on the influences of the "real world" quite a bit.  Gilbert also used scale dimensions as a competative advantage and one of the primary differentiations between His line of trains and that of Lionel's.

 

I have a question for the folks here on this thread... I am toying with a DCC decoder (derived from a design I created 8 years ago!) as a swap for our TMCC radio board.  If successful, a one board swap out without any wiring changes would allow DCC support with our current motor, smoke, and light controller; and also link to the RailSounds system.  Would folks be willing to purchase the "DCC adapter" to plug and play upgrade locos such as the SD-70, Y3, U33?  Figure costs at $50/board for evaluation of the concept.  No promises, just exploratory feedback - as I may run into some technical issues in the current board set that prevent this concept from working out...

 

 

That's a very exciting prospect!

Threads have a tendency to wander away from there original intent, it is the nature of discussion whether it be in person or the internet.  It happens here on all the boards, on Yahoo, CNN... anywhere and everywhere.

 

And I would also beg to differ about Flyer not being "scale."  I go round and round with some of the uber-scalers on Yahoo about this from time to time.  With few exceptions, Flyer is certainly "scale."  Definitely more so than "traditional" Lionel or most MTH RailKing.

 

I've always considered Flyer "scale,"  just "low resolution."  Not every rivet and bolt is there, true, but everything, save for the Frontiersman, old time passenger cars and the so called "F9's" is built to 1:64 proportion, with some allowances made for the production realities of the 1950's.

 

I've also taken a couple of flyer items, done some minor reworking and added scale trucks and Kadee's.  They look just fine tucked in with my other scale equipment. 

 

I do very little weathering, if any, on my trains.  Does that make them any less "scale?"  I'm not about to grunge up my River Raisin Pioneer Zephyr, my AM Pacific that I put a lot of work in detailing or the 290 Pacifics in my Flyer collection. 

 

Model railroading is a hobby of many dimensions, from a wind up tin set running on a circle of track on the carpet to the finest, museum quality model railroad system.

 

It's all good.

 

Rusty

Mr. jonnyspeed,

Sorry to get you all in a tither. I see that you do agree with me that the subject has deviated somewhat but as I said that happens. Further, I did not mention anything about "O" gauge. As you point out this is a "S" gauge forum and I was discussing traditional Flyer versus "S" scale equipment. Now as for Flyer being "S" scale, traditional Flyer is what I have always refered to as "S" gauge Hi-rail. That means it is "S" gauge equipment with large wheel flanges, couplers mounted on the cars, and generally made to run on small radius track. The rest of the equipment may or may not be "Scale". Now as to "S" scale equipment. Scale equipment has scale smaller wheel flanges, couplers mounted on the cars as in the prototype, scale dimensions; all of which necessitates larger radius track. If this is your desire then so be it. All I am asking is do not refer to it as Flyer. My concern is that this "scale" equipment is going to require switches with narrow guard rails, different frog clearances, and changes to crossovers. These changes will make them almost usless for traditional "Hi-rail" Flyer equipment. This may eventually lead to more expensive equipment and the removal of the scale from the reach of any new comer to the hobby.

 

Al

You know what... My mother taught me to keep my mouth shut if I didn't have anything nice to say.

 

I will say that I am not going to apoligize for what I like, what I want to buy, or what I want to talk about on a public internet forum. If you aren't interested in the topic, then why comment? It is easier to just ignore it. I don't want traditional Flyer personally, but I respect those that do and I even read their threads because I am always willing to learn from others. I would never think of posting disruptive posts in someone eles's thread that I really am not involved in. We have lots of Flyer guys on the facebook group and I really enjoy seeing their layouts.  Why is it that some people feel so threatened and are so intolerant? 

I apologize if I have offended anyone with my comments regarding Lionel's "scale" offerings. I own much Flyonel including the U33C. Jonnyspeed, your mother taught you well but you should examine your opening lines to me and see if that really fits her advice. Signing off on this discussion.

 

"I would never belong to any club that would have me as a member."

Groucho Marx

HOSO&NZ,

 

You didn't get me in a tither. My comments wern't directed at you.

 

You bring up some valid points. I think that people refer to the new scale pieces as Flyer for the simple fact that that's what the label on the box says. It seems Lionel is using the Flyer name for all S gauge products. Since they own the name I guess they can do that. What is interesting is that the wheels on my U-33c are MUCH smaller than traditional Flyer. I would say they are about equal to SHS Hi-Rail wheels. Of course I will be ordering the scale wheels for it soon. Which leads me to your second point, the track. I don't know if you were aware, but the Lionel Fastrack will let you run Flyer, Hi-Rail, and Scale wheelsets all on the same track much like the SHS S-Trax system will. I have been told that the turnouts will support all 3 as well.

 

The way I see it, this is a period of transition for S. Lionel is bringing a whole new breed of S gauge trains to market. There will be a period of time where there will be some confusion on what labels things get and so forth, but I don't see this as anything but a good thing no matter if you are interested in Gilbert Flyer, Flyonel, Scale, or Flyonel Scale <-- I just coined that phrase right there. Remember where you heard it

 

I still see Flyer products in the catalog, I see new scale offerings, and I see a track system that will support them all. It is a good time to be in S IMHO.

Your assumption would be correct, johnnyspeed.  I don't see Lionel changing the name for the new S products.

 

But then, consider that on the three rail side, everything from the basic train set to Vision Line is still called Lionel.

 

For S, I began using the terms "Scale Flyer" and "Classic Flyer" to distinguish between the new highly detailed products and products base on A. C. Gilbert designs.  It seems the best way for my tiny little mind to cope with the new developments. 

 

Eventually, Lionel may make more of a distinction between the two lines, but for now the "market," meaning us, will have to do it.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure if the A. C. Gilbert Company (A.C.G.LLC?) had survived into the 21st century, their product line would have also evolved to this stage and would still be called American Flyer.

 

Rusty